Quaithe of the Shadow

[lojzelote]

Wow, really? That someone must have thrown a hell of a party after ADwD in that case :D

Yeah, I remember reading that. They came to that conclusion because Bloodraven was a "sorcerer", who was later in life sent to the Wall, and because he was closely connected to ravens (not the same as crows, bur near) .

[Pod The Impaler]

I don't think Quaithe is a Red Priest; she most likely is a pure shadowbinder or a shadowbinder ...

Melisandres problem is, that she tries to fullfill the prophecy she saw in the fire in the way she interprets it; she tries to manipulate thing to fit in her own view of future and prophecy - but this is most likely not the way it works, it may even hinder the prophecy, since she is actively changing outcomes.

On a sidenote: I always wondered, that if Melisandre is overstepping rules by working for Stannis the way she does ...

Another thought: In the scene with the fire mages Quaithe shows a different approach on fire magic than the Red Priest, all of them (or at least Thoros and Melisandre) think about their power as coming from their god; Quaithe sees fire magic as some kind of art or science, empowered by the rebirth of the dragons.

I would say this is the crux of it: Quaithe, the warlocks of Qarth, the pyromancers in KL, Maggy the Frog, and the "ghost of High Heart" seem to work or be connected to magick, while the Red Priesthood is about faith. Both magick and faith seemingly are able to see the future, and there is some evidence that Melisandre seems to be skilled at both, but Quaithe has thus far given Dany guidance, but not made an attempt to convert her to any sort of religious outlook. (Of course, there is a chance she has an agenda and simply is more subtle in her chosen method of enticement.)

As for Melisandre, I am convinced she is trying to "force" prophecy in a way. She does much to convince others Stannis is The One, maybe she has convinced herself as well. But I am not sure there isn't some element of her trying to make it happen, pushing herself and others down the path of this prophecy, not more passively going with the flow of it. Maybe willful shaping of events this is a by-product of Melisandre having gone to Asshai and learning magick as well as religion, but there are times when one can see in the text she walks the path, but is a bit blind to where it's leading. She wants it to be how she envisions so badly ! If / when it turns out Stannis is not The One, she will feel an utter fool, probably have a crisis of faith.

[Betty Amazing]

Does everyone take 'to go west you must go east' so literally? Dany thinks 'if I look back I am lost', but I'd say she needs to reflect on her past experiences to find herself and her strengths again, in order to succeed xx

[FittleLinger]

Does everyone take 'to go west you must go east' so literally? Dany thinks 'if I look back I am lost', but I'd say she needs to reflect on her past experiences to find herself and her strengths again, in order to succeed xx

I am 50/50 on the literal-nonliteral east west thing. I would like to think it would not be, but what kind of prophecy/advice would that be - to look on her past exp. to take the correct decisions. I mean - that's a natural process for every human being. And I think she is returning to Dosh Khaleen literally now.

[alienarea]

The wood witches of the wildlings wesr masks as well. And on of them healed Mance Rayder in the past and he had red silk from Asshai woven in his coat after that.

[Pod The Impaler]

Does everyone take 'to go west you must go east' so literally? Dany thinks 'if I look back I am lost', but I'd say she needs to reflect on her past experiences to find herself and her strengths again, in order to succeed xx

It could be symbolic only.

Then again, Asshai seems to be a place connected in a number of ways with dragons and magic to the extent that it may be necessary for her to actually go there and learn a few things that might be key to her becoming what she needs to be.

[OneTrueSteve]

Yeah, I remember reading that. They came to that conclusion because Bloodraven was a "sorcerer", who was later in life sent to the Wall, and because he was closely connected to ravens (not the same as crows, bur near) .

There was more to it than just that. He was raised in a riverland family that still keeps the old gods. He was a likely warg (a thousand eyes, and one). There were some links to wierwoods (arrows he used to win the civil war and the Blackwood sigil). As Lord Commander of the Watch he used to go out on rangings north of the Wall, and one time he never returned ...

But it was all pretty subtle and a little crackpot, so I was pretty proud to be right when it happened. Not that it was my theory - I think I started out arguing that he was Coldhands (the Blackwood crest is very reminiscent of the scene where Sam meets him) - but I bought into it pretty quickly.

Back to the topic at hand, I haven't seen anything that demands that Quaithe is anybody other than herself. But there are some big red flags about her that make you wonder. Perhaps the biggest is her fluency in the language of a Westeros - not insurmountable but it just seems extremely odd and convenient for someone from the other side of the world. The mask is part of it as well; it is perfectly consistent with the extremely little we know about shadow binders, but it does cause one to wonder if it isn't a convenient way for someone to hide as well.

Seastar has the problem of Quaithe seeming somewhat spry for a centenarian (at least one who isn't hooked up to a weirwood I.V. or jonesing for some nightshade(?) juice), but does have a known history of sorcery. I don't remember where her mother's family was from, but it wasn't Westeros. And she seems to be the only Great Bastard that hasn't left a legacy.

Afaict the only thing Asshera has going for her is that she's a better fit age wise and people want her to be alive and important and Quaithe showed up before Septa Lemore(?). But I would love to hear about the theory if there's more to it.

I would say this is the crux of it: Quaithe, the warlocks of Qarth, the pyromancers in KL, Maggy the Frog, and the "ghost of High Heart" seem to work or be connected to magick, while the Red Priesthood is about faith. Both magick and faith seemingly are able to see the future, and there is some evidence that Melisandre seems to be skilled at both, but Quaithe has thus far given Dany guidance, but not made an attempt to convert her to any sort of religious outlook. (Of course, there is a chance she has an agenda and simply is more subtle in her chosen method of enticement.)

This is about how I see it, too. Mel seems to be a fanatic who takes the ' ends justifies any means' approach. As such, I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find out that shadow binding is uncommon or even forbidden by the red priests as a rule. All the red priests seem evangelistic (even the liberal-until-recently Thoros), so absent any preaching from Quaithe I would have to say her shadow binding is purely magical rather than religious.

[OneTrueSteve]

The wood witches of the wildlings wesr masks as well. And on of them healed Mance Rayder in the past and he had red silk from Asshai woven in his coat after that.

Oh, good catch.

[Theda Baratheon]

I always found Quaithe very interesting and I really have no idea who she could be.

[Red Magic]

The suspense...

[Ser Grimes]

Quaithe is just Quaithe...

Or shes a Targ...

[Le.Chevalier.D'Eon]

Asshai

It is possible for Daenerys to visit Asshai and us not get any POVs of the event. We may just get glimpses of what happened in flashbacks.

Too bad we don't get a direct POV. Asshai is an interesting place.

[The Heir of the Bear]

Maybe Dany is just going to be the first one to circle the earth :)

I mean if you want to go west you must go east and so on.

This would also match to her advise for Dany to go to Asshai -far more east than we have ever been before.

And it would also not be that stupid, because we already have three huge continents. I mean how big can this world be if Westeros already has the size of Southamerica and we don't really know were it ends in the north.

Hope you got my point, since english is not my native language :)

[QuoththeRaven]

Does everyone take 'to go west you must go east' so literally? Dany thinks 'if I look back I am lost', but I'd say she needs to reflect on her past experiences to find herself and her strengths again, in order to succeed xx

I do, but I differ from others that I think she has already fulfilled part of that prophecy. Her life has been one big trek East at the moment. From Dragonstone to Pentos to the Dothraki Sea to Qarth, she's gone East and Slaver's Bay is still very much East of just about everywhere that she needs to go.

There was more to it than just that. He was raised in a riverland family that still keeps the old gods. He was a likely warg (a thousand eyes, and one). There were some links to wierwoods (arrows he used to win the civil war and the Blackwood sigil). As Lord Commander of the Watch he used to go out on rangings north of the Wall, and one time he never returned ...

Don't forget the 1000's of ravens that flock to the Weirwood at Raventree Hall. I thought that was quite a significant passage when reading it with the knowledge that Bloodraven uses the trees as his communication highway. It must be how he gets his info about the comings and goings around the Trident, Westerlands etc.

[TheButcherCrow]

Here's some world-class crack-pottery for you. What if Quaithe & Mel represent a schism or split in the Church of R'hllor? What if Mel has gone rogue, outwith the control of mother church, convinced that Stannis is AA? What if, like the Night's Watch, the red lot are sworn not to interfere (with AA, PtwP etc)? What if Quaithe thinks that Dany is AA/PwtP & (possibly with the blessing of the church, possibly not) is "interfering" in a more acceptable way? What if I stop posing questions? What if indeed.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

When Quaithe touched Dany, back in Qarth, Dany's hand tingled. Do we any theory about that. What do you think ?

[Perfidious Algernon]

Thing is Marwyn, an archmaester at the Citadel, who has left Westeros to search for Dany, can see the future by looking into his mysterious glass candles which is also what Quiathe seems to be using when she appears in Dany's dreams. Also, Marwyn, whatever little we've read of him, has traveled distant lands and studied with warlocks and showdowbinders. The shadowbinders (if Quiathe is to be believed) know something which apparently the other wizard communities don't. When the rumours of the Dragons reach Westeros and more importantly the Citadel, Marwyn believes it and after learning about the Others from Sam, immediately leaves to meet Dany. Which makes me think if Quiathe and Marwyn are working together which again leads to the speculation that the Shadowbinders have a separate theory and agenda of their own.

Like someone mentioned before, Quiathe seems to view fire magic as a form of art or technique if you will. Unlike the red priests, the Shadowbinders, in my opinion, do not believe in God(s) per say but they practice it as a form of knowledge with a rather scientific approach. But Marwyn's quick exit from the Citadel makes me think that they are also very much aware of the Others and this dualistic approach of magic. Magic becomes stronger when Dragons are born. The Wall lends the wizards and witches its power too, since Melisandre's powers have grown considerably during her stay at the wall.

My pet crackpot is that Quaithe and Marwyn are allied. He spent a long time in Ashhai studying with her order and taught MMD the common tongue, the way someone must have taught Quaithe. They're both very interested in Dany and her dragons, and Quaithe conspicuously omits him from the list of new arrivals she shouldn't trust. Maybe most important, they've had the ability to communiate via glass candle ever since Dany's dragons hatched.