[Book Spoilers] EP110 Discussion

[Unnamed]

Tyrion likes Shae, because Shae likes Tyrion.

Are you suggesting that, of all the whores in Westeros, Shae is the only one with the sense to act like she likes her john? And this unique quality is the reason that Tyrion goes to the trouble to cart her around with him and try to hide her in plain sight, as opposed to just finding a new whore in King's Landing? Clearly, he has patronized many prostitutes; what makes this one a keeper, for him? Having Tyrion thinking, I think this one actually likes me just doesn't ring very true for me.

-VM

[Mad Sweeney]

Are you suggesting that, of all the whores in Westeros, Shae is the only one with the sense to act like she likes her john? And this unique quality is the reason that Tyrion goes to the trouble to cart her around with him and try to hide her in plain sight, as opposed to just finding a new whore in King's Landing? Clearly, he has patronized many prostitutes; what makes this one a keeper, for him? Having Tyrion thinking, I think this one actually likes me just doesn't ring very true for me.

-VM

I think that's where her attitude (show Shae) makes it more believable that he falls so hard for her. Book Shae seemed like any other whore playing up to him for money. The fact that tv Shae is a little more hard to get (a relative phrase of course for a whore) makes it much more believable to me.

[Mad Sweeney]

Unnamed-

IMO, there is no doubt whatsoever, from the books or the glance to Dany's belly in the show, that the price for Drogo's life is the baby. IIRC, Miri tells Dany that "she knew the price", and I don't see how a horse's life would be a good blood sacrifice for the life of a powerful man. I think that's what makes blood magic somewhat taboo as it involves human blood. The horse was just a ruse.

I also believe that MMD knew exactly what she was doing from the moment she stepped forward. Obviously she couldn't have know exactly what would happen but there's no doubt that she caused the wound to be as bad as it became and she knew (or made happen) that Drogo would be a veg when she kept him alive. I really don't think it makes sense to believe otherwise. Her village was slaughtered, she was repeatedly raped and was looking at being a slave for life, does it make any sense whatsoever to earnestly try to help the leader of the rapers/reavers? Nope. She had a chance to kill the Khal that destroyed her life and she took it, then she had the chance to cause even more havoc and she took it. But again, there seems to be little doubt whatsoever that the price of Drogo's life was Rhaego. She went into labor right as the spell began. As to why it was deformed, I don't believe it would've been deformed like that if MMD hadn't intervened. The bloodmagic transformed it while killing it.

I don't recall the phrophecies or if the book mentioned anything, but the dragons hatching seems to be necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Her being the last Dragon/Targaeryan had more to do with them hatching than the bloodmagic sacrifice. Obviously with her surviving the flames, more is going on than Drogo and MMD burning, and Dany's ascension to fulfill her destiny begins.

[The Knight of Grasses]

I think that's where her attitude (show Shae) makes it more believable that he falls so hard for her. Book Shae seemed like any other whore playing up to him for money. The fact that tv Shae is a little more hard to get (a relative phrase of course for a whore) makes it much more believable to me.

In the book, the only thing that made sense was that he was bringing Shae to court to spite his father. In the show, it seems like it's to spite his father as well as to be around Shae, who's obviously a much more interesting whore than he's used to. I buy it.

[Été]

I've read the books, but I still noticed it. For someone new to the series it will seem strange. We heard the Hound say "I'm no knight" and then he's one of the Kingsguard? Was he one of them all along? It can be confusing, just a line from Cercei when she appointed Jaime instead of Barristan to mention that Sandor is to become Kingsguard would have cleared that.

Whoops, my bad - sorry ;) I agree that it could be a lot clearer, and the Hound has been totally underused this year. Still clinging to the hope they bring him into the foreground next season, when there's even more scope to do so. If they don't, his desertion at the Blackwater won't mean half as much.

Maybe the fact he's not an anointed knight isn't that important, or at least not at this point. If he gets more screentime with Sansa it's likely to come up.

And as an aside, I was interested that Larry Williams got it pretty much bang-on about the Hound despite the fact (as far as we're concerned) he barely appears in the adaptation.

[Ellroy]

I liked the last episode a lot. It was done really well and most scenes were good, except for the dialogue between Varys and Littlefinger... it's the second pissing contest between them and it feels so out of charachter. The Pycelle sexsposition was fun, it was a comic relief and it worked.

In general, the pacing was fine and the flow of the narrative was consistent. Best scene: the wakings of the dragons off course and the scene with Sansa, Jeoffrey and my beloved Hound.

Ah, I feared for the dragons but they're done pretty well even if I allways imagined them bigger.

[wandarah]

Are you suggesting that, of all the whores in Westeros, Shae is the only one with the sense to act like she likes her john?

-VM

No. I'm saying that they genuinely like each other. If that hold true considering their respective natures next season remains to be seen. We know what the books say.

It's quite clear though that they hold genuine affection for each other at the moment though.

[K-Raptor]

Great final episode! I expected the dragons to have longer necks and tails though. I remember reading something on this site about what George R. R. Martin said about his dragons. He described them as having long necks and tails, more serpent-like. That said though, the dragons looked awesome. The final scene is just amazing and makes me craving for more (which we're luckily getting spring 2012).

I'm not so fond of Shae, but in the books I don't like her either. So I guess that's just my problem :).

[Raksha the Demon]

It is not the minor change in the character that matters so much, it is the long-term effects on the development of the series that it will have.

I'm OK with Cersei's momentous display of empathy for Bran.

I'm OK with Catelyn's singular display of senseless violence against Jaime.

I'm OK with Tyrion's overstated desire for whores and drinking, as seen in the pilot episode.

But Pycelle is a different case entirely. The fact that he is shown to keep up a mask for in front of the court is of much greater relevance to how the series will progress, and is completely disharmonious with the books.

I'm actually not okay with Cersei's supposed empathy for Bran. I didn't believe it; Cersei doesn't give a damn about other people's children unless they are valuable to her own, or to her. Maybe she was trying to verbally disarm Catelyn. And I had a real problem with Cersei saying she'd had a black-haired son who had died as an infant. We know that she never had any black-haired children of Robert's, only Jaime's blond children. In later novels, Cersei reveals pride in her own consuming of Robert's sperm (off her fingers), she speaks of eating Robert's children; and she has also said that she got aborted the pregnancies that Robert managed to give her - the level of hate and resentment that would inspire a woman in Cersei's position to take these measures is tremendous; and very much a part of Cersei's character. But in the TV series, Cersei did not hate Robert that much, she appears to borne at least one child to him (I doubt she would lie about that to Catelyn; since it would be known that the Queen had one child who did not survive), and the TV writers seem to imply that the child was Robert's, else why would Cersei have even mentioned the infant's hair color? Unless the infant was really another of Jaime's blond bastards, and Cersei lied? Possible, but this was something that Catelyn could have found out with some searching. Cersei's revelations puzzled me; and made no sense given what we know of her character; unless one accepts, as I probably have to, that TV-Cersei is a rather different character than Book-Cersei.

[The King's Foot]

Quick hit thoughts:

* Awesome episode through and through

* Lancel - they should have had him wearing nothing but his cap, then all the non-readers would have gone "oooooh - that guy!"

* Pycelle - loved the Sweatin' to the Oldies moment. I think the whole scene was there to set GMP up on the level of Varys and LF as a clever game player who's just playing a role day to day. We know Roz works for LF thanks to the sexposition several eps ago, so here we see GMP playing the role of doddering old fool for LF's benefit via Roz. Now, the books don't have GMP pulling off any schemes to LF's detriment, but maybe on the show that will change and this scene will make more sense, i.e. he's selling Roz, and therefore LF, on the idea he's a complete non-threat.

* I really liked the way they pulled certain scenes up from CoK to this episode. It felt right. When Cat starting talking to Jamie though I did almost have a heart attack wondering if they were going to have her free him in exchange for the girls right now!

* Marillion getting de-tongued. Who cares really? In season 4 they'll have some other random singer hit on Sansa and get blamed for Moon Door-ing Lysa.

* Dragons rocked. Such a well done scene. Concerned whether the budget will support frequent glimpses of them in S2. Don't want them direwolved.

* Question: if I only let myself read 2-3 pages per day can I stretch ADwD out to the premiere of S2? I'm dreading SoIaF withdrawal around July 13.

Some great quotes in the EW.com interview with the producers. http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/06/19/game-of-thrones-season-finale/

In the books, characters occasionally have flashbacks to moments with Ned Stark. Did you shoot any additional material with Bean that might be used in later seasons?

DB: I wish I could tell you that we did.

DW: A lot of those flashbacks take place years ago, and Sean’s stuntman looks uncannily like a young Sean Bean, so that may work.

ToJ in S2??

[D_Richard]

I have no problem with Shae except that I can't see Tyrion falling in love with her. But maybe that's more of a reflection on what I find attractive than what he does. I thought she was better this episode anyway

I've always interpreted Tyrion as someone who would fall in love with any attractive woman that made him think he was being loved in return. Book Tyrion thinks Shae loves him because he's forgotten what she was.

TV Tyrion will do the same with this Shae... whom I think is beautiful and interesting thus far in her own right. I look forward to S2 and the fleshing out of her story.

[Bronn Stone]

* Pycelle - loved the Sweatin' to the Oldies moment. I think the whole scene was there to set GMP up on the level of Varys and LF as a clever game player who's just playing a role day to day. We know Roz works for LF thanks to the sexposition several eps ago, so here we see GMP playing the role of doddering old fool for LF's benefit via Roz. Now, the books don't have GMP pulling off any schemes to LF's detriment, but maybe on the show that will change and this scene will make more sense, i.e. he's selling Roz, and therefore LF, on the idea he's a complete non-threat.

I think it is just as likely she is working for Varys and was spying on LF. LF may THINK she's his.

Separate topic: Was that Jory's head on the spike next to Mordane?

[Vargo's Pet Goat]

When I first saw the Pycelle/Roz seen I thought it was too long and somewhat pointless. Sicne then smarter folks than me have pointed out that his speech was a bunch of B.S. he spouted specifically so that 1) Roz would report back to LF that Pycelle is firmly in Joffrey's corner, which is what Pycelle wants LF to think, and possibly 2) Pycelle know his comments will get back to Varys as well. The gist of that scene is that Pycelle is more spry and cunning than he lets on. I think in light of his interactions with Tyrion in ACOK the scene makes sense and actually gives some quality background that was missing in the books (perhaps intentionally), since in the books it seemed to me that the Tyrion/Pycelle, uh, dispute, kind of came out of left field. Now it will make a little more sense to the TV viewers who haven't read the books.

I also think MMD honestly knew that her 'healing' of Drogo would mean the baby dies--but she did not know that it would set the stage for the birth of the dragons, of course.

I did not realize that was Marillion. Can't wait to see who takes his place back at the Vale! And this may have been mentioned but I don't think he was killed, just de-tongued. Maybe he goes back to the Vale as purely an instrumentalist. Lysa always liked him. Think of it. His new condition will make it much harder to mount a credible defense, he probably doesn't know how to write.

Sorry if these points have been mentioned or overdone but I confess I did not read all 20 of the previous pages.

[Eponine]

I think that's where her attitude (show Shae) makes it more believable that he falls so hard for her. Book Shae seemed like any other whore playing up to him for money. The fact that tv Shae is a little more hard to get (a relative phrase of course for a whore) makes it much more believable to me.

I guess it all depends on what people think Tyrion would or should fall for. It's almost unbelievable to me that he would fall for show Shae. As has been mentioned, he's surrounded by hard to get people who all want to use him. And Tyrion desperately wants to be appreciated, to the point that he acts irrationally not just with Shae but with his father and the entire court. He thinks it's pathetic how grateful he is when Ser Garlan praises him for his part in the battle, but he just can't help himself...

Moreover, show Shae doesn't seem to admire him in any way; I can't imagine her calling him "my giant of Lannister" without irony in her voice. If she's going to pretend to fall for him, why start out so abrasive? Surely there are clients she could pull in that way, but just as many who will kick her out the door - and as for not being a cheap camp follower who would be glad to get a knight or lordling, Bronn took her from a knight a few tents down, she wasn't exactly in a Chataya-like establishment. It would be pretty strange if some random knight had a high born courtesan.

If she really does start to fall for him, IMO, it makes her more a villain for her betrayal. There's something incredibly more repulsive about a woman who sells the man she genuinely cares about for the promise of a manse and a marriage to a knight than there is about book Shae who was always a whore. I think that there's a more sympathetic although not entirely innocent story from book Shae's perspective. If the POV were from the perspective of a low born, uneducated whore who knows that her client participated in the gang rape of his first wife and gets more and more disgusted with having not just to fuck the guy but put on an elaborate pretense of love and admiration, until under threats and promises from the queen, she testifies against him falsely... that character is one who I think deserves as much pity as hatred. She was always in above her head. Not everyone has to be a skilled player.

[Unnamed]

I think that's where her attitude (show Shae) makes it more believable that he falls so hard for her. Book Shae seemed like any other whore playing up to him for money. The fact that tv Shae is a little more hard to get (a relative phrase of course for a whore) makes it much more believable to me.

I understand the whole "whore playing hard-to-get" concept--I just don't see it being a good approach for Tyrion. The way I read his character was that he wanted Shae to play the role of Second Coming of Tysha, and she was perfectly willing to do it...and did it well enough that Tyrion started to believe in it, as least a little. Not to say that the smart, hard-to-get whore can't be attractive, but (for me) this is the exact WRONG type of whore for Tyrion's character to be attracted to.

I guess we just disagree, which is fine. But I'm trying to encourage you to think specifically about what is endearing to Tyrion, and everything suggests that he doesn't like people who are secretive and, um, schemey. He can play the game with them, but he doesn't like them. And, in the books, it's usually after dealing with his schemey relatives that he is most anxious to see Shae and have her play "simple peasant girl in love" for him. To me, the movie Shae could be a long-lost Lannister cousin, and the Tyrion in MY head would run screaming for the hills after her first few lines of dialog.

-VM

[Gnomestress]

I think it was the little details that really made this last episode spectacular.

First off - those of you who have been down on Sophie Turner as Sansa should hopefully have more faith in her now. So far her performance has been a little flat but until the end of the first book, Sansa is fairly boring in the books. Once Ned's head comes off is when the fun begins. The scene on the ramparts where she's forced to look at Ned's head was well done, imo. The look of sheer murder captured in her eyes the moment before she moves to push Joffrey shows that Sophie Turner is more than just a pretty face. I'm looking forward to seeing what she can do in season 2!

Shaggydog in the crypts. So much love. :D

I liked the detail of how Drogo's pyre went up in flames. It was a neat touch. I'd always imagined it as just a big pile of wood, not a rube goldberg-esqe corpse burning device. The CGI dragons were well done. I was worried about how they would look but now I see that my worries were not well founded.

I'm continuing to be more interested in Jon during the TV series than in the books. John Bradley makes one hell of a Samwell.

They. Have. My. Son. Charles Dance captures the quiet ferocity that is Twyin Lannister. I swear, that man must have badass in a bottle somewhere and quaffs it between takes.

Here's why the episode got 8/10 instead of 10/10:

Shae. After reading some arguments here after her debut episode I decided to try my best to give Shae 2.0 a chance to win the devotion of my fangirl heart. She just doesn't fit. Shae 2.0 amidst characters like Tyrion, Tywin, Bronn, & Cercei is like Kesha headlining for The Three Tenors (Yes, Pavaratti is dead...but for this example we have raised him from the grave, talent intact). Yes, she's pretty to look at but compared side by side to real art and talent she is one dementional and pedantic. Not to mention that Kesha & Shae 2.0 both have a voice that makes me want to drive spikes into my eardrums.

I know she's here to stay and complaining won't do a thing except make me feel better. She's going to be a bitter pill to swallow. It's a major disappointment because Tyrion is one of my favorite characters. Now the scenes where I would normally look forward to seeing I will dread because of this tarted up german version of Fran Drescher. Do not want!

[Unnamed]

Unnamed-

IMO...the price for Drogo's life is the baby....The horse was just a ruse.

I also believe that MMD knew exactly what she was doing from the moment she stepped forward...The bloodmagic transformed it while killing it.

I don't recall the phrophecies or if the book mentioned anything, but the dragons hatching seems to be necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Her being the last Dragon/Targaeryan had more to do with them hatching than the bloodmagic sacrifice. Obviously with her surviving the flames, more is going on than Drogo and MMD burning, and Dany's ascension to fulfill her destiny begins.

Well, I certainly can't point to anything in the book that refutes your points--it's not like GRRM explains WHY things happen. However, we definitely have read it differently...and I suspect it pleases GRRM to no end.

One thing I'm curious about, which I don't think you mentioned, was the significance of Jorah carrying Dani into the tent. The way the scene played out, it seemed that her entering the tent was a Big Damn Deal, in both the book and the TV show. In your reading of this, what's your interpretation of this event? That is, what would have happened if she had remained outside? Or does it matter? [To my reading, if she had stayed outside, Drogo would still have been a vegetable, but her baby wouldn't have been a dead lizard, and the dragon eggs would have been rocks.]

Of course, one thing that's hard for me to reconcile is Dani's perception of the eggs being alive before all this. Since only she perceived it, I've always felt that these were basically premonitions--that is, they were just rocks, but she was picking up on the potential for them to be reanimated.

With plot points like this, it fascinates me how different people can read the same events and interpret them so completely differently...

-VM

[D_Richard]

Shae 2.0 amidst characters like Tyrion, Tywin, Bronn, & Cercei is like Kesha headlining for The Three Tenors (Yes, Pavaratti is dead...but for this example we have raised him from the grave, talent intact). Yes, she's pretty to look at but compared side by side to real art and talent she is one dementional and pedantic. Not to mention that Kesha & Shae 2.0 both have a voice that makes me want to drive spikes into my eardrums.

Hyperbole like this gives legitimate and well-articulated criticisms a bad name.

[Ser Kevan Raley]

I must say that this the last episode of the season felt a bit underwhelming, a bit anti-climactic, but that was perhaps inevitable after all that happened in the last. It was however still a very good episode. With that said I must also announce that Game of Thrones is now officially the best TV show in many years, and one of the best modern ones. Excellent work by HBO. I bow down. :bowdown:

Some notes:

• I like they man playing Yoren and how he saved Arya. One wonders why since a Night's Watchman mustn't have any loyalties and yet he helps the daughter of a traitor get away. Must be because she's Benjen's niece.
  
• But I wonder how successful Arya will be playing a boy. Maise Williams, for all her excellence, is older than Book Arya and could grow up too fast for it to be plausible.
  
• They did good with conveying the same dreams Bran and Rickon had. You could tell how creeped out Osha (who has now cleaned up) felt.
  
• Liked the poised dignity displayed by Catelyn when walking past her men, but almost cracking when she got out of sight.
  
• "And then we will kill them all!" The Lady has strength and resolve. Despite initially not being (or rather looking) who I imagined as Catelyn Stark, I'm now behind Michelle Fairley's portrayal. So much in fact that I caught myself imagining her when I'm re-reading the books.
  
• Joffrey is not just a cruel king, he's wimp too for not wanting to watch the bard getting his tongue cut out, despite it being his ruling.
  
• I'm already in the camp that sympathises with Sansa, and I really felt for her here. She showed strength not flinching away and then by saying perhaps Robb could bring her Joff's head instead. And she nearly shoved him off the gantry, had the Hound not intervened. I also liked the small scenes she had with the Hound. He was rather gentle towards her.
  
• The King in the North! Heck, despite it being strategically unsound, I'm behind it! I don't recall Theon Greyjoy swearing fealty so forcefully as he did. Did he even do that in the book? This will make his treachery all the more repugnant.
  
• No Riverrun. I'm pretty sure they were in Riverrun in the book, but I guess they decided to not add another locale this season. Pity, I'm curious as to how it will look on screen.
  
• Jaime is an arrogant ass, isn't he? He almost seems like he has a death wish when he speaks with Cat.
  
• My, that Lancel Lannister is one skinny ass boy. Much like Loras. Ugh! What was the point of that scene except showing early that he was Cersei's lover.
  
• Speaking of pointless scenes, why did they show that scene with Pycelle and Ros? To show that Pycelle is a Lannister loyalist who even thinks Joff has a sense of true greatness? We know that already. That he's more limber than he leads on?
  
• I liked that Tywin poured Tyrion's cup of wine. It showed that he's started to appreciate his dwarf son. Pity that won't last. At least he recognises that Tyrion is needed to rule in King's Landing.
  
• I also liked the camaraderie shown between Jon Snow and his brothers when they brought him back. It was actually a bit chilling to hear then recite the oath.
  
• I didn't catch any mentioning of Daenerys being barren after her "miscarriage". Hm.
  
• But man, Dany looked good nekkid and sooted with the dragons crawling over her. :drool:
  
• Excellent CGI work with the dragons. That was one of my main worries about this whole series, that they would frak it up. The dragons were actually rather cute. But not as cute as Emilia Clarke...
  
• Gah! Now we have to wait until next spring for season two (they start filming on July 25th).
  

[Unnamed]

I guess it all depends on what people think Tyrion would or should fall for....

Moreover, show Shae doesn't seem to admire him in any way....

If she really does start to fall for him... that character is one who I think deserves as much pity as hatred. She was always in above her head. Not everyone has to be a skilled player.

I really liked this post. Although you're reading a lot more into Shae's potential "character" than I ever bothered to, I find it very much "at evens" with my reading of the books.

-VM