[Book Spoilers] EP110 Discussion

[Greywolf2375]

Loved two bits from interviews today that shed a lot of light on the decisions to downplay the direwolves and large mounted battles.

In her interview with Ran and Linda, Natalia Tena mentioned that the small scene in the crypts took far more takes than one would normally expect because instead of growling at her, the dog portraying Shaggydog kept coming up and licking her face.

And in another interview, one of the D&D pair mentioned that they've learned that just adding a horse to a scene doubles the time spent making the shot correct. This of course all but doubles the expense involved as well. Animals and children are the bane of the serious actor. GoT has both in abundance.

May not be able to watch the crypt scene again knowing that. "yeah, Shaggy is badass...right up until he rolls over with his feet in the air asking for belly scratches".

[sweetrobin]

What I have not seen anyone else point out is that this episode has a beautiful point of symmetry with the first episode. With the first epsiode, I thought it was strange that when the Others killed the wildlings, they had made a strange looking symbol from the bodies, something that was not outlined in the book. When Drogo was on the pyre in episode ten, the formation of the kindling recalled that scene to me. To me, this was a nice balance, not just between the beginning and the end of the first season, but as the awakening of the Others (Ice) and the awakening of Dragons (Fire).

Unrelated, did anyone notice Shae's ring? It looks a lot like an eye, stylistically quite a bit like Mirri's necklace. Interesting.

[kairparavel]

Best-selling fantasy author George R. R. Martin tried to make Game of Thrones – and the three books that follow it in his Song of Ice and Fire series — “unfilmable.” Says the writer: “I had worked in Hollywood myself for about 10 years, from the late ’80s to the ’90s. I’d been on the staff of The Twilight Zone and Beauty and the Beast. All of my first drafts tended to be too big or too expensive. I always hated the process of having to cut.” When he took up novel-writing afterward, he recalls: “I said, ‘I’m sick of this, I’m going to write something that’s as big as I want it to be, and it’s going to have a cast of characters that go into the thousands, and I’m going to have huge castles, and battles, and dragons.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/04/04/game-of-thrones-hbo-george-r-r-martin/

In the 1990s, George R.R. Martin was just another fantasy author with a few awards, novels and television episodes to his credit. Frustrated at hearing that his scripts were too elaborate to be filmed, Martin decided to write novels that were completely unfilmable.He imagined a sprawling political saga, set in a medieval fantasy kingdom that runs on deceit, plunder, sex and beheadings. While the high lords play their game of thrones, they are ignoring a greater threat -- undead monsters of the North who are growing restless and moving toward the cities in the south.

http://www.cleveland.com/tv/index.ssf/2011/04/hbo_finds_a_way_to_film_george.html

"Did we tell you the story about [GRRM’s experience as a TV writer on], I think it was “The New Twilight Zone”? He had written a scene with knights battling on horses at Stonehenge, and the director came to him and said, 'You can have the horses or you can have Stongehenge.' That's how we frame things: Sorry, we wish we could do all this, but we have to make a horse/Stonehenge choice."

David Benioff - Show Runner - Game of Thrones

Bronn Stone's sig

So, there it is folks. We never, ever stood a chance of having one big happy family on this, when the guy who created did it in such a way as to never be able to capture it on film. And every fucking week we've had a horses/Stonehenge choice made on some level. Some minor. Some major.

Why was Tyrion reduced to comedic fodder in battle? Why was the red comet never shown? Why did Robert want to joust in the tournament instead of melee? Why is The Hound so emo? Why does Loras look like he hasn't showered in three months? Why can't they get Lancel some nice hair? Why does a story about battles and war show none of it? Why are the direwolves suddenly not important to the Stark children?

Why was a man, so frustrated by Hollywood and the creative decisions made, ok with having his life's work picked apart and put back together to fit television, when it wasn't his original vision, seeing as his original vision couldn't be filmed. Why not just say "Sorry, I don't want to have to make choices"?

Have some of the nitpicks been over the top? (Ghost barks! Oh noes!) yes. But not all of them. Most have been reasonable gripes from reasonable people who enjoy and love this series and each had an idea of how it would go. For many of us it hasn't gone that way. We get to talk about it as much as the people who love love love everything about it. And it's for the the reasons above - this shouldn't be on television. It's painfully obvious. In order to do more with budget, no battles. In order to get more back story out there (which I admit is difficult in a tale with multi POV) without constant voice overs, we get the same invented whore, over and over again.

Some has been fantastic - King of the North moved me. Eddard's death made me cry all three times I watched it. I think the child actors have been fantastic. And I hope it gets better, but I don't think it will. There's too much to tell, with too little time and budget to do it right. And most of us, we want horses and Stonehenge every episode. Everyone should have wanted both, or none at all.

[Eponine]

Why is Shae getting so much hate? I guess I don't remember the specifics of the book character well enough to understand why.

To summarize several pages of threads - many people think that the exotic, mysterious and complex aspect is wrong for the character and the change in her character changes Tyrion's motivations for (stupidly in both cases) falling in love with her, which changes the kind of person that Tyrion is. Those who like her generally think either that she's enough of a minor character that the changes are essentially unimportant, or think that she's gives Tyrion's attraction a more realistic focus, since a smart person like Tyrion might prefer a smart companion.

(Mostly I just find her annoying on a gut level. I could never listen to her blather at me all day, and since I like Tyrion so much and otherwise want to spend a lot of screen time with him, they're the TV equivalent of the good friend with the really annoying girlfriend).

[Mad Sweeney]

OK, I like this post as a meta-analysis at the end. You and I agree on quite a bit. Renly and Loras are the two biggest disappointments to me. Not that the actors have sucked, but they just do not fit the book versions for me.

My biggest disagreement with you might be Cercei (and I'm not sure if you mentioned her twice to make a point, or if you just goofed). I think Heady is doing an awesome job. I'd have her in my top tier. My other bid disagreement w/ you is that I think TV Robb is fucking awesome. Other than those two, we are pretty much in line (I might put LF in the top tier, but it's close).

I have to put Syrio in my top tier. I know that he doesn't fit some aspects of the book description, but the guy just owns the camera.

OK, so not just at Ep but at everyone: As I mentioned earlier, I've only read books 2 and 3 one time each. Why is Shae getting so much hate? I guess I don't remember the specifics of the book character well enough to understand why. Again, I just don't remember the books well enough from one read, so any feedback would be appreciated.

Like being good with a sword and having a believable (not comically bad) accent? Yeah, he differs from the book a bit. Add in being a chubby Kenny Powers lookalike and you've got THE most disappointing character from the books. Hopefully a different actor plays Jaqen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know most of you loved him. Blah blah blah. He hit a few lines pretty well but any time he was in motion he was a liability. Watch his last scene again, tell me how he killed/disabled the Lannister he grabs by the back of the neck and puts his WOODEN sword up to his neck. Might've given him a nasty papercut or sliver, but that was beyond ridiculous. And I know, that isn't the bad actor's fault, but damn it was awful.

[Mad Sweeney]

OK, I like this post as a meta-analysis at the end. You and I agree on quite a bit. Renly and Loras are the two biggest disappointments to me. Not that the actors have sucked, but they just do not fit the book versions for me.

My biggest disagreement with you might be Cercei (and I'm not sure if you mentioned her twice to make a point, or if you just goofed). I think Heady is doing an awesome job. I'd have her in my top tier. My other bid disagreement w/ you is that I think TV Robb is fucking awesome. Other than those two, we are pretty much in line (I might put LF in the top tier, but it's close).

I have to put Syrio in my top tier. I know that he doesn't fit some aspects of the book description, but the guy just owns the camera.

OK, so not just at Ep but at everyone: As I mentioned earlier, I've only read books 2 and 3 one time each. Why is Shae getting so much hate? I guess I don't remember the specifics of the book character well enough to understand why. Again, I just don't remember the books well enough from one read, so any feedback would be appreciated.

BECAUSE SHE'S DIFFERENT THAN THE BOOK !!11!!!1! ZOMFG!!111!1

[Tears of Lys]

/snip awesome post (you can read it upthread :P)

Great way to put it. I agree with most. I'm still enjoying it. If people can get over the fact that it's NOT the book(s), then they'll take it for what it is, enjoy it, and have fun.

[Eponine]

Uh, Mad Sweeney - can you not accept that people not liking Shae is pretty much like you not liking Syrio? You think he's not good with a sword and I think she's not good at acting like a whore (whether she's high born or exotic or whatever, she's fucking for money). You think his accent is comical, and I think her accent is grating. You don't think his appearance is right and I don't think her appearance is right. Where's the difference that makes your analysis of Syrio reasonable and other people's analysis of Shae ZOMFG stupid?

[Mudguard]

OK, so not just at Ep but at everyone: As I mentioned earlier, I've only read books 2 and 3 one time each. Why is Shae getting so much hate? I guess I don't remember the specifics of the book character well enough to understand why. Again, I just don't remember the books well enough from one read, so any feedback would be appreciated.

Yeah, I'm with you in that I don't have a big problem with TV Shae. To me, Shae wasn't that important to the story until she ends up testifying against Tyrion, leading him to murder her. If those parts are eventually shown (assuming the TV series goes that long), it doesn't bother me that her personality has changed. It's not that important to me what type of woman Tyrion prefers. What matters is that they show her betrayal (from his point of view) and his response. If they changed those things though, I would have a problem with it.

[Mad Sweeney]

Uh, Mad Sweeney - can you not accept that people not liking Shae is pretty much like you not liking Syrio? You think he's not good with a sword and I think she's not good at acting like a whore (whether she's high born or exotic or whatever, she's fucking for money). You think his accent is comical, and I think her accent is grating. You don't think his appearance is right and I don't think her appearance is right. Where's the difference that makes your analysis of Syrio reasonable and other people's analysis of Shae ZOMFG stupid?

First off, I KNOW he's no good with a sword.

I don't like him for technical reasons, not because he's not what I pictured or he's not how he was in the book, or they spent 20 seconds too long on him in epsiode 6. I wouldn't care if he was 19 years old with hair down to his ass if he could swing a sword like he knew what he was doing. My only care for his appearance is that it doesn't capture the 'essence' of Syrio, that is, a badass swordsman. Shae only needs to appear as a whore to capture her essence. Done. Her purpose and storyline isn't clear yet so all the doom and gloomers are wailing about something they don't know about yet, because both her and Tyrion are different than book T and S. Whereas my complaint about Syrio is known now. He can't sword fight for shit and his accent is stupid.

I'm not sure I've illustrated the difference, but I've also not gone on and on about how this and this is RUINED because of this whore or that one. Technical vs ideals is what it boils down to.

[Tyrion Thr Terrible]

As much as everyone here (me included) has gotten nit picky about the things they were looking forward to seeing but didn't, and those seeing things that weren't in the book, I have to say, overall this first season was spot on when it comes to adaptation. Are there any among us here 100% satisfied with the final product? No, but I believe the majority of us would agree everyone over there at HBO achieved an amazing feat by pulling it off! With that said I have a strong feeling that come half-way through season 2 the majority will be singing a different tune. The challenge for HBO now is to keep the non-reading audience from getting lost in the story considering so many elements are simultaneously happening, and in doing so I believe we are going to be seeing more and more of a hybridization bouncing around all 4 books. And you know what, I'm still going to be tuning each week as are each and everyone of you.... See you next year! :)

[Mudguard]

As much as everyone here (me included) has gotten nit picky about the things they were looking forward to seeing but didn't, and those seeing things that weren't in the book, I have to say, overall this first season was spot on when it comes to adaptation. Are there any among us here 100% satisfied with the final product? No, but I believe the majority of us would agree everyone over there at HBO achieved an amazing feat by pulling it off! With that said I have a strong feeling that come half-way through season 2 the majority will be singing a different tune. The challenge for HBO now is to keep the non-reading audience from getting lost in the story considering so many elements are simultaneously happening, and in doing so I believe we are going to be seeing more and more of a hybridization bouncing around all 4 books. And you know what, I'm still going to be tuning each week as are each and everyone of you.... See you next year! :)

Yeah, this is my sentiment too. Thought they did a great job overall and am looking forward to season 2. Sure, certain things bothered me. Like the way the Others looked like albino ape men (actually they weren't even that white despite being nicknamed White Walkers!). Does the way they look have any impact on the overall story? Probably not. Oh well.

[fitheach]

I'm in the pro-whores bandwagon.

I like Ros. I do think her presences feels like a bit of a writing device, but in truth? I think the actress is great. I enjoyed her scenes with Theon, especially the goodbye scene.

I adore Shae. I think they picked a really great actress. I like her character. I think she has wonderful chemistry with Tyrion (Dinklage).

I agree, I don't mind Roz per se (and the actress has been great)- it's how they've written her scenes... Too long and too much of the same (Yeah yeah, she's a whore so she's supposed to be naked- bla bla bla). The writers just haven't been very imaginative in how to work her character into the story. Next season I'd like to see where they're going with her as (probably) Varys' spy (with :shocked: her clothes on a little more) and less LF ass touch type scenes.

I have no problem with Shae.

[wolverine]

Just adding that I was a little jarred that Dany's hair was not burned, but do not really care at all. I mean, it is magic, right? It actually makes more sense that no actual part of her burns rather than just her hair.

[Lord Mord]

I am disappointed with pretty much all the griping and bitching.

But I'd also like to know who is this fellow supposed to have been who "really" dies in Storm, but who was shown dying this season.

As far as I can tell, it never happened.

[Mudguard]

Regarding some of the new exposition scenes, some worked for me, so didn't. What worked - the bantering between LF and Varys was entertaining. I like the rivalry they've set up between the two. I don't recall them ever going head to head like this in the book, but I like the change.

What didn't work - the Ros/LF sexposition scene. Found it bizarre for LF to be explaining things to Ros while he was giving them instructions on how to perform as whores.

[Doom of Valyria]

What a great ending to a great season. Absolutely loved it - the mustering of the Night's Watch and the dragons were both majorly epic. Can't wait for season 2!

Hopefully the dragons won't be as MIA as the wolves were. I'm not sure how difficult/expensive the CG for them is, less than the wolves I would think.

HBO, D&D, and the cast did a phenomenal job. It was all so true to the spirit of the books, but also had some great added content that made it their own. Bravo to them all!

[Kalzakath]

My only gripe with the episode was the MMD didn't do her complete line when she was talking about when Dany would get Khal Drogo back. I mean, it really couldn't have been that hard to add in the extra 15 words right?

[Mad Sweeney]

My only gripe with the episode was the MMD didn't do her complete line when she was talking about when Dany would get Khal Drogo back. I mean, it really couldn't have been that hard to add in the extra 15 words right?

There's got to be a reason for it. That's a rather important plot point, IMO, so I'm sure they have a good reason for excluding it. Have a little faith, Moriarty!

[Mad Sweeney]

http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/04/04/game-of-thrones-hbo-george-r-r-martin/

http://www.cleveland.com/tv/index.ssf/2011/04/hbo_finds_a_way_to_film_george.html

Bronn Stone's sig

So, there it is folks. We never, ever stood a chance of having one big happy family on this, when the guy who created did it in such a way as to never be able to capture it on film. And every fucking week we've had a horses/Stonehenge choice made on some level. Some minor. Some major.

Why was Tyrion reduced to comedic fodder in battle? Why was the red comet never shown? Why did Robert want to joust in the tournament instead of melee? Why is The Hound so emo? Why does Loras look like he hasn't showered in three months? Why can't they get Lancel some nice hair? Why does a story about battles and war show none of it? Why are the direwolves suddenly not important to the Stark children?

Why was a man, so frustrated by Hollywood and the creative decisions made, ok with having his life's work picked apart and put back together to fit television, when it wasn't his original vision, seeing as his original vision couldn't be filmed. Why not just say "Sorry, I don't want to have to make choices"?

Why? Are you serious? Why accept someone's offer of a totally free $60 million dollar advertising campaign for your new book and series, not to mention paying him tons of money for the rights to the story, the exec producer salary and a little bonus of a writer's salary for an episode or two? Seriously? Why? It's been what, 6 years since the last book? No one but the longtime readers are gonna buy it, but lo and behold, HBO gives him a lottery ticket guaranteed to pay out. Do you realize how many copies of the discounted 4 books he's sold since the show came out? And sales of the new one have to at least be 3 or 4 or more times higher than they would've been without HBO. HBO has a great track record of making great TV shows so who cares if they don't get horses and Stonehenge in the same shot? I have no idea how much money he made between the last book and the series being started, but his net worth and future sales have probably risen geometrically. So, why? Not for money, for a SHIT TON of money and a damn fine TV show as well. He can keep his books "pure" and let the TV pros make their altered version of his story and all of them involved can swim naked in the pools of money they're raking in. C'mon, a $60 million ad campaign that he gets paid for on top of the sales boosts and you don't think he should do it? Madness, pure madness.

I'm convinced some of the craziest people on Earth are on this board. Unless you were being sarcastic, I couldn't tell. And quite frankly I'd rather be wrong and have missed the sarcasm than to actually think that someone actually thinks like you on this matter. It's almost incalculable how much more money he's going to make from this show and it's effect on his book sales, old and new. Hell, I'd sell out my life's work for 10% of the taxes he's gonna pay on the dough he collects based on the series' popularity!