Tini Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 If an undead person is just continuing the trajectory set by his last strong intentions and emotions before he died, what does that mean for someone who dies several times? I mean, if the state of Beric and Catelyn is an indication, they are not really feeling strong emotion anymore, they just continue doggedly on. Whatever Beric Dondarrion was, or felt, when he came back from the dead for the first time, it was replaced by what he felt before dying again, and again, and again... If a dead person cannot really feel deeply anymore, his next incarnation would be weaker in its purpose, and this wouid continue with every death experienced.I never noticed that Beric's final death was his seventh. It might be that his seventh death belonged to the Stranger. But maybe he died because his sense of purpose had become so diluted that it could not sustain his unlife any longer. Did Thoros mention if he tried to revive Beric again after Beric gave life to Catelyn? I only remember that Thoros refused to give her life because she had been dead for so long, so Beric did it instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 It always struck me as an odd thing for him to od, and I've still not found a satisfactory explanation for it other than the author needing UnCat as a plot device. It's, to my mind, one of ASOIAF's weakest moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tini Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Beric might not have known that giving life to Catelyn would mean his own death, his final death. Thoros paid a heavy price for reviving Beric Dondarrion, he started out a fat man and lost a lot of weight giving life to Beric. But unlike Beric, he was truly alive. Beric was not, he just had the life that Thoros gave him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuchandMore Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Whatever the reason was....it SUCKED! I was really interested in that character, and it was a stupid fucking way to get rid of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Seal Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I gotta say losing Beric to get Stoneheart was somewhat disappointing, he was a great character. The whole BWB is one of my favorite set of characters from the series. Thoros' speech to Brienne at the end of Feast was one of the best moments in the series.The BWB is all about Justice and keeping the king's peace after all. The Red Wedding was an atrocity and was against everything they stand for, I feel like Beric thought maybe by reviving Catelyn he could fix it a little. He also mentions that he is tired of being revived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tini Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Beric Dondarrion mentioned not only that he was tired of being revived, he also mentioned that death and revivals affected his memory. There was still enough left of the original Beric Dondarrion that he recognized that he was no longer that man, and losing more of himself with every death. That must be awful. Maybe he was also observing / commenting on the changes taking place in the BWB that he founded.The BWB is not all about Justice and keeping the king's peace. At least, not all of its members were about it. This just wasn't as obvious when Dondarrion was still leading it. But we see the fractures spread. I think we'll see them breaking apart soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Seal Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 The BWB is not all about Justice and keeping the king's peace. At least, not all of its members were about it. This just wasn't as obvious when Dondarrion was still leading it. But we see the fractures spread. I think we'll see them breaking apart soon.Well, under Beric's lead, it at least started out that way. Remember they were originally sent to capture the Moutain. Its purpose was corrupted over time though and even more so under Stoneheart's leadership, as Thoros regretfully stated to Brienne, but I do believe Beric's final act of resurrecting Cat was motivated by his sense of justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tini Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 He was motivated by the injustice of Catelyn's death or maybe by (a memory of) compassion. Maybe he had input from R'hllor that his purpose in life would be fulfilled by granting life to Catelyn who had died before she could fulfill hers. He seemed to have a direct to connection to R'hllor, so this is not totally implausible. But some of the BWB members have degenerated into simple thugs. Possibly they never were more than that to begin with, but with Dendarrion gone it becomes increasingly obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dayne Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I have mixed emotions about the whole BWB/Uncat thing. It is clear that Beric was tired and he mentions that he had gotten to the point that he started to forget who he was before. I think he simply wanted out and he felt that Cat (with Harwin's prodding) deserved to be alive again. I don't think that it was Beric's plan to have her come back to life to take his spot and/or get the Freys, it just happened that way. I do love the vengeance of Uncat against the Freys. But Cat herself drove me crazy when she was alive and the fact that she is dead and her actions against Brienne are even more frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Baratheon Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 To me it seems like a pointless deue ex machina,I'd have beric over stone heart anyday,at least he is original.Also don't u guys find it strange that BWB just blindly followed a crazy vengeful zombie and became quite crazy themselves while under dondarrion they were much more humane...While I always liked catelyn after stone heart I just find her fucking annoying and pointless character Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silmarien Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Meh, Thoros certainly isn't happy about the direction of the BWB. I think there's a very fine line between justice and vengeance. The Red Wedding was a huge atrocity, especially in their culture. It makes sense to me that some (not all) of the BWB are down with the "kill them all!" mindset (btw, thinking that Cat said that in AGOT, and now knowing what she became, is rather disturbing). Lord Karstark was executed for seeking HIS vengeance when his sons died fair and square on a battlefield. When Catelyn was alive, before they all left Riverrun for the RW, someone (Greatjon I think?) remarked "Women do not understand a man's need for vengeance". I smirked and thought to myself that he obviously didn't know many women....but now it's clearly foreshadowing for UnCat, and who she became. UnCat is no deus ex machina. What plot did she save miraculously? GRRM set up Beric being brought back, and the BWB heading toward The Twins. And even the Ghost of High Heart mentioned her in a vision. That's more than sufficient setup for UnCat, though of course, I wouldn't have guessed she'd come back, or be so cruel to Brienne (which did piss me off, but that isn't the real Cat - the one who told Robb to bend the knee and seek peace with the Lannisters, so she could get her daughters back).UnCat is obviously a pathetic creature, driven only by vengeance, a walking corpse. I hope there's enough humanity in her to spare Jaime and Brienne, and to do something worthwhile before finally dying (for good). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Maybe Catelyn is needed for the story as Nissa Nissa? Who else could be sacrificed when Eddard is reborn as AA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Jon Snarkgaryen Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 From what we know of him, Dondarrion had no particular love for the Starks or even the Tullys. Neither did he have any interest in assisting Robb in his war against the Lannisters, and was only concerned with protecting the smallfolk. So I find it quite confusing that he would give up his own life to save that of Catelyn's. Anyone have any theories?I was always under the impression Beric had a fair amount of respect for The Ned. I think I remember reading that Thoros told Arya (I guess in ACOK or ASOS) that someof the BwB thought they should turn themselves in to Joff when Robert died and Ned was declared a traitor, but Beric convinced them to carry on in their names (Robert the King and Ned the Hand). The Ned's last decree to Beric was to protect the smallfolk from raiders, and Beric valued that, so he carried on. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was part of it. I know that Harwin told Arya that he was with the BwB now and not with House Stark anymore, but I got the impression that part of the reason he joined the BwB was because they were carrying out The Ned's wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silmarien Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 I was always under the impression Beric had a fair amount of respect for The Ned. I think I remember reading that Thoros told Arya (I guess in ACOK or ASOS) that someof the BwB thought they should turn themselves in to Joff when Robert died and Ned was declared a traitor, but Beric convinced them to carry on in their names (Robert the King and Ned the Hand). The Ned's last decree to Beric was to protect the smallfolk from raiders, and Beric valued that, so he carried on. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was part of it. I know that Harwin told Arya that he was with the BwB now and not with House Stark anymore, but I got the impression that part of the reason he joined the BwB was because they were carrying out The Ned's wishes.Ok, sorry for being lame, but where is everybody getting "the Ned" thing from? I realize it's a typo, but for the life of me, I can't find it in my copy of ADWD! And it is true that Ned (acting as Hand, while Robert was hunting) sent Beric out to find and behead Clegane. So saving his wife, Catelyn Stark, isn't really that weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 I also think that he and his company were appalled by what the Freys did. He felt she had a right to vengeance.Promise to Arya aside, I really think this is it.ETA: Do we think that UnCat's, uh, mental condition might be the result of having Beric (i.e. a guy who'd been brought back like six times himself) do the honors instead of Thoros, an actual living guy? I'm sure being dead for so long had something to do with it, but perhaps her nuttiness also has something to do with her method of resurrection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Jon Snarkgaryen Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Ok, sorry for being lame, but where is everybody getting "the Ned" thing from? I realize it's a typo, but for the life of me, I can't find it in my copy of ADWD!It is not a typo. When Jon gives Stannis advise about the best to way take his army to Deepwood Motte, he also says that he should go to the mountain clans (the Flints, the Norreys, the Wulls, etc...), whom are all loyal to House Stark and the North. Stannis wants to liberate Deepwood Motte from the Ironborn and Winterfell from Ramsay. The Northmen hate the Ironborn, and many hate the Boltons as well. So the mountain clans side with Stannis, as Jon predicted. They also want to rescue "Arya" from Ramsay, not knowing that it's really Jeyne. The have almost a reverent respect for Ned. They refer to him, more than once, as "The Ned", as if he isn't just Ned Stark, but rather an entity that is greater than just a simple man. That was GRRM's way of indicating to the readers how much respect the Northmen have for Ned and the Starks. Also, they call Arya "The Ned's daughter", and say things like, "....they are happy to die knowing that they are on their way to rescue The Ned's daughter..." It is not a typo. I am 99% sure. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silmarien Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 It is not a typo. When Jon gives Stannis advise about the best to way take his army to Deepwood Motte, he also says that he should go to the mountain clans (the Flints, the Norreys, the Wulls, etc...), whom are all loyal to House Stark and the North. Stannis wants to liberate Deepwood Motte from the Ironborn and Winterfell from Ramsay. The Northmen hate the Ironborn, and many hate the Boltons as well. So the mountain clans side with Stannis, as Jon predicted. They also want to rescue "Arya" from Ramsay, not knowing that it's really Jeyne. The have almost a reverent respect for Ned. They refer to him, more than once, as "The Ned", as if he isn't just Ned Stark, but rather an entity that is greater than just a simple man. That was GRRM's way of indicating to the readers how much respect the Northmen have for Ned and the Starks. Also, they call Arya "The Ned's daughter", and say things like, "....they are happy to die knowing that they are on their way to rescue The Ned's daughter..." It is not a typo. I am 99% sure. ;)Wow. Can't believe I missed that, and I've read the dang book like 3 times! Thanks for the explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mor2 Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 He also said it was more and more difficult for him to come back after each "death".Interesting, if he meant that he loose a part of himself i.e. memories or something else, which might have effected unCat, when he gave his life for hers. also his ability manifested around the time when the dragons returned, so it is likely it has same roots as the Valyrian magic, which was said to be rooted in blood and fire, fire we got, was there any mention of blood? (I mean as part of the ritual) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Baratheon Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Wow. Can't believe I missed that, and I've read the dang book like 3 times! Thanks for the explanation.i didnt get that either till now.... damn i never pick up all these subtleties in the books.....that martin is quite clever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slurms McKenzie Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 ETA: Do we think that UnCat's, uh, mental condition might be the result of having Beric (i.e. a guy who'd been brought back like six times himself) do the honors instead of Thoros, an actual living guy? I'm sure being dead for so long had something to do with it, but perhaps her nuttiness also has something to do with her method of resurrection.Yeah, you could be right there, might have hit the nail on the head as it were.........must be that master's degree of yours..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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