[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Davos 1 - Spoilers for ADWD

[Mezeh]

Dany was conceived the night after Aerys burned his Hand. The last Hand lasted fortnight so Dany was conceived two weeks before KL failed. According to GRRM Jon is eight or nine month older than Dany so he was born about time that KL was taken or probably two weeks later. Anyway he was conceived three of four month after the war started. We don’t know where exactly Ned was by the time but at the beginning he was at the Valley with Jon Arryn. It is difficult to believe that he spent there three or more month before starting to the North to call his own banners so it is difficult to believe in a story Davos was told.

[Robb19]

First post. Let's see if I can establish some credibility early.

I think Davos is not going to die, because we've already heard about it. I think if a main POV character is going to die, we'll see it before we hear about it. Just kind of makes sense that way.

But, in the context of the story, who will there be to report of Davos' death? Off the top of my head, to use only as examples, we've had Eddard and Arys as POVs die with major characters like Lysa, Robb, and Tywin as non-POVs, as well. Bran, Arya, Brienne, Theon, and Catelyn have all "died" at the end of their own chapters, but none of them stayed dead. Bran just ended up paralyzed, Yoren was just rescuing Arya, Brienne just got her ass kicked, Theon ended up flayed, and Catelyn was brought back to life. It seems as if when someone definitively dies outside of the prologue, it's not from a first person point of view. So who will be around to witness Davos' death if it hasn't already happened? I think his seclusion from the rest of the characters keeps him safe...for now.

On the subject of naming bastards, we have all the proof that the name CAN revert to the fathers parentage. Every account (which all seem to be false) has Jon being born somewhere other than the north, yet he's still named Snow. I would guess that it's because of Ned's acceptance of his bastard, but while I think this proves that a bastard can be named for his father's land, I don't believe there is any certain, set in stone way to name them. And Jon may be a special case, since you know, Ned accepted him as a son and treated him as such.

Naming bastards seems to be tricky business at best. Just doing a reread, we know Robert recognized Edric Storm as his bastard because his mother was highborn. He was conceived at Storm's End, and born to the Lord of Storm's End. So is he Storm because he was born there or because he's recognized? Either way, Jon was not born in the North, but ended up with Snow. Who knows. Probably just because Jon Snow sounds nice.

On the topic of Jon's true parents, though, I think that stylistically, all the conflicting accounts are doing their best to build up to a major "WTF?!" moment. Why would a gifted writer give so many different (rather boring) possibilities only to, in the end, say "Yeah his mom was just some chick..." Doesn't make any sense. The "red herrings" are all pointing to a major revelation. It's going to be huge who Jon's parents are, and the only huge option is Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Venustas]

It's said that Ned LEFT the girl with silver and basstard in her belly. Ned wouldn't drag a girl carrying his son all over Westeros while he's battleing the Targs... and since Jon was nursed in Dorn, it cant possibly be him. So, either we have Neds second bastard or its all just some fishermans story..

[Shewoman]

Ned leaving the girl with some silver and a bastard in her belly doesn't sound much like the Ned we know. And if it is him, are we assuming that this "Jon Snow" is the one he raised at Winterfell? How did he get him? Clearly the child hasn't been born when "Ned" left the Sisters. Did "Ned" come back and get him?

Not sure why people are calling this unnamed woman "Wylla." If she is the Wylla Ned identifies to Robert as Jon's mother, that sets up a weirdness--because we know that in the series present she is at Starfall. If Ned knocked up a woman in the Sisters, why on earth would he send her to his old flame, Ashara Dayne?

Fergus Flatnose, you asked if Ned might have switched this Sisters child with Lyanna's. No. Not unless he carried this kid (who wasn't born when he left the Sisters) with him throughout the war so that he had him at hand when he finally found Lyanna at wars' end.

[Rinso]

Shewoman,

Ned leaving the girl just with some silver doesn't sound like the Ned we know in AGOT, true, but that wasn't the Ned we knew - by that time he was 19 or 20, much younger and probably not so responsible and composed as he was in AGOT, and we all know what his best friend Robert was like, so something from his personality and character might have rubbed off into Ned's traits for awhile, such things happen between friends.

As for the other thing, well, how about this - Ned leaves the girl pregnant shortly before the start of the war, goes to war and yadda yadda yadda, then, on his way home after everything is said and done he goes through the Fingers and the Bite (it's the other way to the North, besides the Kingsroad) and takes the newborn child with him. I think it can fit with all the timelines, but I may be mistaken.

The thing about this story is that it mentions Jon's name. Now, if all of it is just a lie, then how is Jon's name mentioned? I really doubt that some small time lordling from the Sisters would know the name of Ned's bastard; if the name is said in a guess from the lord, than that is one heck of a coincidence; and if it is a lie spread through the Fingers and the Sisters by, let's say, that fisherman's girl, well, how does she know Jon's name?

I really don't know what to think about that story and I suppose that we just have to wait and see when ADWD comes out.

[aspasia]

A great deal seems to be made here about whether or why Manderly would "need" to hang bits of an executed Davos on the wall with onion decoration. Some seem to think it proves Davos MUST be dead, or maybe that he MUSTN'T be (because Manderly wouldn't need to prove Davos was dead unless it's really the case he's not blah blah..)

Remember that hanging the heads or relevant bits of executed "traitors" on the walls was just something people did with executed corpses. No one "Needed" to put Ned Stark's head on a spike, but they did anyway. Not to prove he's dead; just cause you hang up dead heads in this world to show off that you cut somebody's head off. A giant "so there". The onion is also typical: remember all the hanged bodies all over the riverlands with crabapples and salt and what-not shoved in the mouth? They think it's cool to put something in a dead mouth to show who the dead guy is. Or humiliate the dead guy, or emphasize why you killed the guy, or whatever. Either you hang up a sign: "They lay with lions!" or some up with some figurative posthumous food to say essentialy the same kind of information to the illiterate. "Onion Knight's Head Here." "We Killed These Guys for Saltpans".

So I'm not thinkin that the head-on-wall, with or without onion, or pendant hands, can be made to prove anything atall. Maybe it's Davos' head, maybe not.

[aspasia]

It's said that Ned LEFT the girl with silver and basstard in her belly. Ned wouldn't drag a girl carrying his son all over Westeros while he's battleing the Targs... and since Jon was nursed in Dorn, it cant possibly be him. So, either we have Neds second bastard or its all just some fishermans story..

Leaving some girl pregnant with HIS child with some bucks doesn't sounds like our holy stuffed-shirt. What DOES sound like him? He leaves the chick a pile of money because she tells him she's pregnant with someone else's child and for some reason can't marry him/get child support off him/ what have you. Any fisherman's daughter Ned owed a serious debt to, he'd want to help any way he could, even possibly allowing her to let others think her pregnancy was his responsibility. Or maybe it never occurred to Ned that he'd be credited with the bastard if he left the girl a pile of silver. Maybe he just gave it to her and she passed round the idea that Ned was the dad to cover the real situation, improve her status in some way, even suit her feelings, perhaps, if she really liked Ned. Maybe she WANTED him to have been the father, and thus gave her kid a name that she thought would please him (Jon) and also a surname to connect the kid with him (Snow).

We know nothing about what Ned knew or did-- only that after he left, people said the girl had his bastard.

[Spring Bass]

Again, I think it all revolves back to the complications surrounding Wylla the wetnurse in Dorne and Edric Dayne's story to Arya about how Jon was his milk-brother. It makes literally no sense for anyone in Dorne to tell Edric Dayne that Jon was his milk brother if Jon never passed through the area as an infant, and was picked up by Ned on the way back north.

[Ghost's claw]

Again, I think it all revolves back to the complications surrounding Wylla the wetnurse in Dorne and Edric Dayne's story to Arya about how Jon was his milk-brother. It makes literally no sense for anyone in Dorne to tell Edric Dayne that Jon was his milk brother if Jon never passed through the area as an infant, and was picked up by Ned on the way back north.

yes i agree with you that either Jon must have passed through Starfall as an infant OR many people know about him there via gossips etc.. afterall i imagine this episode would have been quite a scandal especially since it involves Ashara Dayne.As you say,otherwise it makes absolutely no sense for Edric to know about Jon.

[de Evreux]

Maybe Martin is finally letting us R+L=J fans (new and old) know that we are wrong.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

I think Davos is not going to die, because we've already heard about it. I think if a main POV character is going to die, we'll see it before we hear about it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Davos didn't die where we expect him to only to die in other place and time.

[Shewoman]

Leaving a woman with his child in her belly and some gold doesn't sound all that much like the Ned Stark Martin's created. I can't help but wonder how she wound up in Dorne.

Dear 'Shara,

I know it's been a long time, but--well, a lot has happened, really, and I think I should let you know. I remember you were upset when I married Catelyn Tully, but you don't need to be. I've met another woman--Wylla, who makes me happier even than Cat did--and she's pregnant with our child. You know I always wanted a lot of children. Anyhoo, I'm worried that she's not in a safe area, so I'm sending her to Dorne. You'll look after her for me, won't you? I've always known I could count on you.

Your Ned.

In ASOS Edric Dayne tells Arya that Wylla nursed both him and--years earlier--her brother Jon Snow. I believe this is the first time we hear the word "milkbrother." He also tells her that Wylla is Jon's mother and that Ned was in love with Ned's Aunt Ashara before he married Catelyn. Arya does not take this well.

'Me is right; we're not given evidence for this story except for gossip.

I think Martin has said that Jon was born 8-10 months before Dany, which would put his birth around the time of the Sack.

Snow is the name for northern bastards and Jon doesn't seem to be an uncommon name in Westeros. This may be the Jon Snow that we know or it may be some other bastard.

[Emo Targaryen]

The lords on the Sisters have webbed fingers... the Northmen pray to the Drowned God... one Greyjoy in ancient times was even named Dagon... I bet one Valyrian dagger that the Great Other has got tentacles and fhtagn has some meaning in High Valyrian.

[Mother of Dragons]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and newly obsessed w/GRRM! I tried to find this through numerous searches, so please forgive me if I missed it and am bringing it up again, but as for the Davos dead or alive debate:

I read the books so fast because they were so incredible that sometimes the details escape me (will definitely do a reread this summer) but I recall in one of the books there was some sort of vision, and I can't remember if it was Dany or someone on Westeros, but the vision was of an "undead Davos", or some kind of zombie form of him I think on the hull of a ship (or the part of the ship that a carved maiden is usually propped up in the front) sailing north to the wall.

The dream seemed to imply Davos took the form of one of these Others or Wights, or perhaps received "The Kiss" from the red priestess.

Does anyone else remember this? I read every post in this discussion and I was so surprised nobody else brought this up when they were debating on whether Manderly was going to kill him or not

[Blackthrone]

From Dany's vision in the House of the Undying:

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

Not conclusive that it's Davos. No reason to believe that it's him, even, other than that it's male and affiliated with ships. One could more reasonably conclude that the "corpse" is Victarion Greyjoy or Euron Crow's-Eye, since both of them are most likely coming to meet Dany. Euron, in particular, is often described as having discolored lips from drinking shade-of-the-evening, although you could also interpret "grey lips" as standard-issue corpse discoloration. The bright eyes part is interesting. Notice that it does not remark on the color of the eyes; the Others' eyes, as well as those of wights, are consistently described as bright blue. "Bright" could be a descriptor unrelated to the wights. A corpse's eyes would normally be considered dull; glazed, even. A bright-eyed corpse would surely be unusual regardless of the color of said eyes.

Unfortunately that's all the prophecy-vision gives us and we really don't have enough information to conclude who the corpse represents.

[Mother of Dragons]

From Dany's vision in the House of the Undying:

Not conclusive that it's Davos.

Thanks for the clarification, I couldn't remember when I read that part nor which book. So many other dreams, legends, prophecies, I get them mixed up. For some reason when I read it I immediately thought of Davos. Didn't it mention something about the wall? Because I remember thinking to myself: "why is Davos sailing to the wall after he died?". The part about the grey lips I just thought it was because he was dead, not discolored, but you are right, its not conclusive. Thanks for clearing that up for me, sorry I was so slow on the uptake, but my memory served me badly!

[blueknight316]

I'm doubting that Davos dies but with GRRM you never know. The reason I doubt it is because Davos's narrative would seem rather pointless to me if he just goes to Oldtown and gets whacked. There has to be some greater purpose to his chapters. Perhaps it's just to show us more of Martin's world, but hopefully also it leads to major revelations or progress for the story.

[Edd's laughter]

I like those opinions guessing that Wyman Manderly lied to Cersei and kept Davos alive- not only that I like him, but with AFFC parallel to this, we will see how Cersei was making a fool of herself all the while she was admiring herself for being so smart and powerful queen. That would be sweet, literary and emotionally.

[The Halfman's Penny]

I don't buy the story that Godric tells as being dispositive of Lord Commander Jon Snow's origins. How many times will you find "John Smith" in the Yellow Pages for every city in north America? I think GRRM likes to give us riddles, but doesn't like them being easily solved, as with his hints of the pilot's casting. There's been speculation since almost the beginning that Jon Snow's parentage would constitute a Big Reveal, the most popular suspects being Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark - maybe GRRM wanted to create some doubt to preserve the readership's satisfaction.

We also know how little it proves to have a head on a wall, allegedly belonging to someone important.

[Brahma]

I like those opinions guessing that Wyman Manderly lied to Cersei and kept Davos alive- not only that I like him, but with AFFC parallel to this, we will see how Cersei was making a fool of herself all the while she was admiring herself for being so smart and powerful queen. That would be sweet, literary and emotionally.

When I read that Cersi had commanded Manderly to kill Davos the thought "If you are going to condem a man to death, wield the sword yourself" came to mind. I think that Manderly's distrust of the Lannisters is so great that he'd tell them that Davos was dead, then wait to see what they did.

Reading the first books of ASOIAF I got the impression that people that did the "right" thing got the short end of the stick, that the wicked and treacherous prospered. Later on in the series it seems that the honorable people eventually prevail. In AGOT Dany comes within inches of being poisoned by wine, but Robert's command to spare Dany (at Ned's urging) stops that assassination. If Dany then returns to the seven kingdoms and saves it from the Others Ned's honor would have been a pivitol point in keeping her alive so that she could save the people.