[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Davos 1 - Spoilers for ADWD

[Shewoman]

I don't think a Jon Snow conceived at the very beginning of the war--before it had even really started--would be the right age to be the Jon Snow Ned claims as his bastard. The Jon Snow we know would be younger than the one in this spoiler. Robb was conceived a month or two into the war--after his parents' marriage. When Catelyn sees Jon, she believes him to be younger than Robb. She may well be wrong, but that suggests that Jon looks and acts a little younger than Robb at that point.

[Shewoman]

Why are people assuming that the woman in this spoiler is Wylla? No name is given.

Drebeden, Wylla isn't dead. She's at Starfall. Twelve-year-old Edric Dayne tells Arya about her in Storm of Swords (an Arya PoV, pp. 496-8 in my American paperback). He says she's Jon's mother and nursed both Jon and Edric (Jon is about three years older; Edric doesn't know any of this from his own experience); because of this he considers Jon his "milkbrother." He also tells Arya that Ned had a thing for Edric's Aunt Ashara (another of his aunts told him this). I suppose it's this conversation that leads people to identify Wylla with the woman in the spoiler, but given that Edric isn't a witness to any of these events (and places Jon's birth in Dorne rather than the Sisters), I'm not sure his story agrees with the spoiler all that well.

[Maia]

I really think that Gulltown was the place where Ned exchanged Wylla for that fisherman's daughter as Jon's wetnurse on his way back North after the war and that the Vale girl was the wetnurse whom Cat saw when she finally came to WF. If the fisherman's daughter was suitable for the job because she recently had a child out of wedlock, then it would be easy to link her to Ned, who has been there at the beginning of the war. Timing would roughly fit for those who don't care too much about precise details.

It is an open question whether Ned actually met her a year previously - it may be yet another conflation of facts - i.e. _some_ fisherman transported Ned then and an unrelated fisherman's daughter was later hired as a wetnurse. Or she may have already been pregnant then and Ned could have requested her specifically, after his prior positive experience with the family's discretion. It would be interesting if Sansa runs into the woman or into her child, if it survived.

It would be particularly convenient to Ned because he'd have been able to send Wylla back per ship - he would have felt responsible for her well-being and sailing was relatively safe and convenient compared to other methods of travel. She also would have contact with relatively few people and attract much less attention.

Also, Cat's POV seems to suggest that Ned didn't accompany her on her journey north to WF - which would seem a bit strange, since if one travels by land, Riverrun is pretty much on the way. But if Ned sailed from KL to Gulltown and then to White Harbour, prepared Winterfell for the arival of his new family and only then summoned Cat north, then it would all make sense.

[Shewoman]

Good points all, Maia, as usual!

[Prince of the North]

Good points all, Maia, as usual!

Why are people assuming that the woman in this spoiler is Wylla? No name is given.

Drebeden, Wylla isn't dead. She's at Starfall. Twelve-year-old Edric Dayne tells Arya about her in Storm of Swords (an Arya PoV, pp. 496-8 in my American paperback). He says she's Jon's mother and nursed both Jon and Edric (Jon is about three years older; Edric doesn't know any of this from his own experience); because of this he considers Jon his "milkbrother." He also tells Arya that Ned had a thing for Edric's Aunt Ashara (another of his aunts told him this). I suppose it's this conversation that leads people to identify Wylla with the woman in the spoiler, but given that Edric isn't a witness to any of these events (and places Jon's birth in Dorne), I'm not sure his story agrees with the spoiler all that well.

Hmm...I wonder if Edric's placing of Jon's birth in Dorne could be more evidence or support for Jon being born at the ToJ (which was, after all, on the Dornish border)? Thus, it would be just a little more evidence for R+L=J.

[Llewellyn]

I don't think a Jon Snow conceived at the very beginning of the war--before it had even really started--would be the right age to be the Jon Snow Ned claims as his bastard. He'd be younger. Robb was conceived a month or two into the war--after his parents' marriage. When Catelyn sees Jon, she believes him to be younger than Robb. She may well be wrong, but that suggests that Jon looks and acts a little younger than Robb at that point. Would "Snow" be the general name for bastards in Gulltown, as it is in the North?

No; in Gulltown, as in the rest of the Vale, the bastard name is Stone.

[Mezeh]

No; in Gulltown, as in the rest of the Vale, the bastard name is Stone.

You are right yet bastards more probably get their name after their fathers (in a way) and not after their exact place of birth. Ned Stark bastard would be Snow no matter if he was born in the Valley, Dorne, Stormlands or anywhere else.

As a proof – Alayne is supposed to be born in Free Cities yet no one discuss his name as Stone since Littlefinger is from there. Mya Stone is Stone because Robert never officially recognized her otherwise she would be Mya Storm. End Edric Storm mother is Florent so he most probably was born in the Reach yet he is Storm since Robert admitted to be his father.

[A wilding]

I think that the consensus is that a bastard's surname depends on where they are brought up, not on where they are born or on who their father is. Thus Jon being called Jon Snow tells us nothing. (Incidentally, the father of all bastards with bastard surnames must be known to some extent, or they would not be given a bastard surname.)

[Mezeh]

It is difficult to say what is more important – the place bastards were brought up or their fathers in the case they were recognized. But anyway Bastard of Winterfell could have been only Snow no matter who was his mother and where he was born.

[Jon Targaryen]

I think that the consensus is that a bastard's surname depends on where they are brought up, not on where they are born or on who their father is.

I agree. Aegor Rivers and Brynden Rivers being two examples.

[Mezeh]

I agree. Aegor Rivers and Brynden Rivers being two examples.

Actually we don’t know if they were raised in KL or in their mother’s castles. Their mothers were both from Riverlands but then Edric Storm should be Flowers. Anyway Jon could be only Snow with his supposed father Stark and mother unknown.

[Jon Targaryen]

nm

[Gaston de Foix]

(Incidentally, the father of all bastards with bastard surnames must be known to some extent, or they would not be given a bastard surname.)

Surely Wilding, the absence of a father is enough? I would have thought children are presumed bastards if there is no father around and no evidence of marriage. I agree though that where you are brought up determines the name.

[A wilding]

It seems that only people above a certain social level have surnames, and further that only bastards whose fathers are known to be in this category are given bastard surnames. Though I think there is room for some doubt about the exact rules.

[cybroleach]

It seems that only people above a certain social level have surnames, and further that only bastards whose fathers are known to be in this category are given bastard surnames. Though I think there is room for some doubt about the exact rules.

Most commoners are bastards to begin with and likely have no surname. Only a bastard with a noble partent are given the bastard's surnames to show their own noblity tainted with bastardry, IRRC Mya mother was noted as a serving wench so she definately gets her name from being Robert's daughter even though it's never been official.

[Lord Varys]

On the Great Rivers-Bastards:

Although the mothers of both, Aegor and Brynden Rivers, were mistresses of Aegon IV. (what indicates that they lived at Court while Aegon fathered them) there's no reason that they lived during their upbringing with their father. First, Aegon had a habit in dropping his mistresses (so Aegor and Brynden would have went back to the Riverlands with their mothers). Secondly, I can't imagine a reason why bastards should have been brought up at court, when the mothers most likely were married themselves or hold even keeps in their own names.

Before Aegon acknowledged them as his sons, neither Aegor nor Brynden should have been part of the Court. Of course, Daemon - as son of the unwed Targaryen princess Daena - would have brought up at the Red Keep. But at least one reason that neither Bloodraven nor Bittersteel got the name 'Waters' may be that they were born and raised mostly in the Riverlands.

[rheagar]

slightly off topic, but:

does anyone think that Manderly ever started building a fleet (or at least a few ships) that was proposed early on in aCoK? I realise that the proposal was only forwarded to Robb (but maybe it was one of those things dealt with off screen. Though I am supposing that any ships being built would have been visible to Davos and thought upon in his ADwD spoiler chapter).

If so, it would give Manderly a bit more operating room when playing the Crown and Stannis (and maybe even the Starks down the road- if he is hosting/knows about Rickon).

[Mezeh]

On the Great Rivers-Bastards:

...

Bittersteel mother was replaced by Bloodraven mother who was replaced later by another mistress. It is safe to assume that retired mistresses returned to their homes and didn’t stay at court and that they did it with their sons.

[Mezeh]

slightly off topic, but:

does anyone think that Manderly ever started building a fleet (or at least a few ships) that was proposed early on in aCoK? I realise that the proposal was only forwarded to Robb (but maybe it was one of those things dealt with off screen. Though I am supposing that any ships being built would have been visible to Davos and thought upon in his ADwD spoiler chapter).

If so, it would give Manderly a bit more operating room when playing the Crown and Stannis (and maybe even the Starks down the road- if he is hosting/knows about Rickon).

Manderly definitely doesn’t hosting Rickon (by Jon’s spoiler chapter) and there is little chance that he or anybody else of northern lords knows about Rickon whereabouts except those who are really hosting him now.

There is little chance that he started to build fleet as well since Robb took another plan to get back to the North. Yet been the wealthiest northern lord and controlling the only major port Manderly support is critical to everyone who want to rule there. By Manderly’s answer to Stannis in Jon’s spoiler at least then Manderly was unwilling to take somebody’s side openly and preferred to keep all options open.

[Shewoman]

Martin has said that Jon is about nine months older than Dany. According to one of the Jaime PoVs in AFFC, she was conceived the night before KL fell [note: not quite: Mezeh corrected this in the next post--thanks for that]. Jaime and another member of the KG were outside the room and heard Rhaella screaming but they couldn't intevene. That would mean that Jon Snow--the one who is now Commander of the Night's Watch--was born right around the time KL fell.

Since the war lasted about a year, I don't think that a child conceived before the fighting really started--when Jon Arryn, Robert, and Ned were calling their banners--could be the Jon Snow who was born as the war was ending.