Tyrion as a Targaryen

[Lord Tywin's Poop]

I think dwarfism is usually a random mutation, rather than a recessive trait.

Sorry, I checked, yes it is a random mutation

this is one of the few fan theories that I really like. Without getting into all the finer points, what I think is:

It makes better sense than Jon being a Targ. Jon looks and acts 100% Stark all the way, whereas Tyrion acts like a Targ who's been raised amongst by Lannisters. That's the overall vibe I get from him at least. It doesn't have to be the case. If it is, readers will be easily be able to look back and see the clues. If not, it won't really matter.

No one acts more like Tywin than Tyrion. I don't know what you mean by saying that he doesn't act like a Lannister? Seriously, do all Lannisters act the same?

And acting like someone is more nurture than nature. So your argument is invalid.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

this is one of the few fan theories that I really like. Without getting into all the finer points, what I think is:

It makes better sense than Jon being a Targ. Jon looks and acts 100% Stark all the way, whereas Tyrion acts like a Targ who's been raised amongst by Lannisters. That's the overall vibe I get from him at least. It doesn't have to be the case. If it is, readers will be easily be able to look back and see the clues. If not, it won't really matter.

Jon was raised as a Stark (and still seems to have his Targ father's melancholy ...), so I don't really get the point there. And Tyrion acts like Tywin, to the point where Genna Lannisters says that he is "Tywin's son," not Jaime. I don't get a Targ vibe from him at all. As if there's a single "Targ" way to act and a single "Lannister" way to act?

[Lord Tywin's Poop]

If someone really does act the Targ way among any of the non-declared Targaryens, it has to Cersei. She is paranoid, she burns things, she likes power.

[Daughter of Dragons]

Honestly, I like the idea of Tyrion being a Targ....however, I think that this is a deliberate red herring as well. Based on what clues we are given in the books, if any of the Lannister brood were actually Targaryens I would have to cast my lot for the twins...Jaime and Cersei. This is mainly because of the fact that it is stated in the books that Aerys took Joanna Lannister on her wedding night, as was his right as King in that time. With that said, he slept with her before Tywin did and shortly after the twins were born. They are also very attracted to one another, in an incestuous manner, much like the Targs are known to do. Cersei also seems a bit touched in the head as well, much like Aerys, "The Mad King".

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If someone really does act the Targ way among any of the non-declared Targaryens, it has to Cersei. She is paranoid, she burns things, she likes power.

Said this before, but while I think that all three of Tywin's children are really his, the twins make a ton more sense than Tyrion if you're fishing for "hidden Targs."

[Melifeather]

It is what I am expecting. (Dany, Jon and Tyrion being Targaryens)

[Woman of War]

I think this all boils down to the kinslaying trap. Does GRRM want Tyrion to be cursed very meaningfully forever (after all, Robb killed a Kar-Stark who is like a 12th cousin twice removed and ended up with a wolf sewn on his neck)? Has Tyrion really suffered the way all other kinslayers have been shown to suffer? If anything, he seems lucky as hell in ADWD. No greyscale, no pale mare, no lions eating him, no drowning.

Which is not to say that I think Tyrion is a Targaryen. But if he's not, he's kinda screwed. Does GRRM want him screwed?

I do not think that these books are about just punishment for irredeemable crimes. The story is not made the way that a character who has sinned has to redeem himself or get somehow redeemed by an unexpected story twist in order to earn him- or herself the right to get a positive fate granted at the end.

The characters get their story, more or less fascinating, and whether they are allowed to survive the series will imho not depend on the amount of good and bad deeds they have piled up. Here Martin will certainly not play god and separate the just from the sinners, this is not the way his books are intended.

So there is no irredeemable character for me, on principle, neither in RL nor in the books, I believe that every character has a compelling story and if it is Tyrion's storyline to have murdered his own father Martin may nontheless find a plot for him that gives him a positive ending. I am of course aware that a kinslayer has committed a huge taboo crime and that Martin would have to be creative here.

Apart from that even in these forums posters highly disagree which deeds are unforgivable, in the moral system of Martin's world or our own concept of morality.

So if Tywin has been indeed Tyrion's biological father this would in no way mean that in Martin's eyes Tyrion has to die as only possible plot turn. If GRRM wants he can write him out of that, we will see.

I personally would want Tyrion to go on living with that baggage on his soul, that twisted father son relationship is too good to be false. And the Tysha story or the murder of Shae as well are part of Tyrion's character, he should never find Tysha but go on living being aware of what he did. I do not think that the author should solve all the problems for his characters. Life is about learning to live with your burdens, some of them you will never be able to leave behind.

So adding up good or bad deeds to calculate a character's exact position on a scale of grey will not help us to determine his or her chances of a remotely positive survival.

[Peter1982]

In a general sense, I do think it is suspicious that the Targs have not one bastard-child. Bastard children play a very important role in the story line. You see them everywhere. Yet the Targs don't seem to have any.... so i guess one or more hidden Targ-bastards is not such a strange idea. I guess the reason there are no specific Targ-bastards is that there was this war waged against the Targs by bastards. So who knows... both Tyrion and Jon might fit in a Targ-bastard description, and there births are suspicious, but who knows, Martin might surprise everybody....

[Queen Beyond the Wall]

OMG I so love this theory!!!!!

It is so plausible! It is in fact painfully obvious when you think of it!

And Jon is really the son of Lyanna and Lord Walder Frey, what a family conflict we'll have there. Don't forget that Ned was really a Lannister who had been switched at birth. And then there is Dany, who isn't a Targ at all, but a Stark (Ned's secret love child) but really a Lannister, since Ned was switched at birth. Don't forget the theory that Stannis isn't a Baratheon at all, but really Balon Greyjoy's lovechild, which would make him the heir to the Iron islands and about to burn his brother on a pyre! There is also the case of Melissandre's secret identity: She is Joanna Lannister, who faked her death in childbirth to get out of her marriage to the controlling Tywin, and is now working with Stannis to undermine the Lannister's plans. And because we need a little more incest in the books, Littlefinger has not yet discovered his secret origins (of which only Varys knows the truth): that he is the long lost brother of Catelyn and Lysa Tully, who are also really just half Lannister, because Tywin really got around. Then we will find out that Ser Loras is the secret son of Doran Martell, and heir to the kingdom of Dorne!

Can't wait to read it all in the next volume!

[Lord Tywin's Poop]

I think GRRM is just using TYRION as Targ as a red herring to weaken the claim of R+L=J followers. He wants us to rethink whether or not Jon is THE Prince that was promised because most of the evidence that people are pointing out is from ADWD. Joanna thing and Tyrion wanting a dragon.

[Summerqueen]

LTP—

Agreed, this theory just turns classic tragedy into soapish nightmare. Please, no.

That is me saying "do not want".

Personally, I think that we are even discussing this idea is interesting because it underscores GRRM's preoccupations with the idea of patrilineal inheritance. The feudal system is based on it, and we have increasingly clear evidence that this method of wealth transfer is flawed and corrupt. It depends on knowing exactly what your wife is doing and with whom every damn minute of the night and day in order to be certain, especially if you've got cousins, brothers, uncles, or fathers still hanging around. Sometimes, I just have to sit back and belly-laugh about how deeply flawed feudal systems of inheritance are.

The more likely "secret prince" is the one where motherhood is suspect (R+L=J). Opposed to the folly of thinking there could be certainty in patrilineal succession, the secret of who's your mother seems much more important and relevant because this is something almost everyone knows and few noble houses have concern for. No one really cares where a man gets his bastards because mothers don't matter. It's like GRRM has jumped in with the Hammer of Iron(y) every time some man frets over whether or not his son is really his son (men can only really know for 100% sure through DNA analysis, unless those men are unusual in some way). Off in the corner, Jon Snow is wondering who his mother is...

[eyeheartsansa]

Sorry, I checked, yes it is a random mutation

No one acts more like Tywin than Tyrion. I don't know what you mean by saying that he doesn't act like a Lannister? Seriously, do all Lannisters act the same?

And acting like someone is more nurture than nature. So your argument is invalid.

Tyrion also loves to burn things and is fascinated with dragons, even from a young age. Like Rhaegar, he is an avid reader and somewhat of a renaissance man. These things have been established since the opening chaptesr of AGOT and they've been consistently reinforced throughought the series. These are either just basic character traits or clues to something else - it is anyone's guess! The twins seem Targish too, I can definitely see that.

And I'm not playing on a debate team trying to present a full fledged argument; just saying what my gut tells me. I also just like the idea, because I think it would be neat and it would tie alot of things together. I'm allowed to say things like that in the Tyrion/Targ thread, aren't I?

[Jory]

No.

[Lord Tywin's Poop]

Tyrion also loves to burn things and is fascinated with dragons, even from a young age. Like Rhaegar, he is an avid reader and somewhat of a renaissance man. These things have been established since the opening chaptesr of AGOT and they've been consistently reinforced throughought the series. These are either just basic character traits or clues to something else - it is anyone's guess! The twins seem Targish too, I can definitely see that.

And I'm not playing on a debate team trying to present a full fledged argument; just saying what my gut tells me. I also just like the idea, because I think it would be neat and it would tie alot of things together. I'm allowed to say things like that in the Tyrion/Targ thread, aren't I?

Holy FUCK! I am a Targaryen, i love smoking and reading.

THe Iron Throne is mine by right, so fuck offf STannis.

[eyeheartsansa]

Said this before, but while I think that all three of Tywin's children are really his, the twins make a ton more sense than Tyrion if you're fishing for "hidden Targs."

Unless it was somehow Joanna.. what do we know about her?

I'm sure someone has already shot this down.. this is not really my area of expertise, I just think it's a fun theory.

[FuzzyJAM]

If Tyrion is revealed as a Targaryen I'm burning my books.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Unless it was somehow Joanna.. what do we know about her?

I'm sure someone has already shot this down.. this is not really my area of expertise, I just think it's a fun theory.

Tywin and Joanna are first cousins and apparently her side of the family is pretty well established. She's not a Targ. Not everyone in this story is a secret Targ. :P

[Teal'c]

Said this before, but while I think that all three of Tywin's children are really his, the twins make a ton more sense than Tyrion if you're fishing for "hidden Targs."

Agreed. Stronger evidence, for me, than the proclivity for incest was Cersei at the the burning of the tower (Tywin's funeral). She's got that Targ pyromania.

By the way, just to stir things up, Jaime and Cersei are not identical twins. It is unlikely but possible they could have two different fathers...

[Lizaveta Martell]

I do not think that these books are about just punishment for irredeemable crimes. The story is not made the way that a character who has sinned has to redeem himself or get somehow redeemed by an unexpected story twist in order to earn him- or herself the right to get a positive fate granted at the end. The characters get their story, more or less fascinating, and whether they are allowed to survive the series will imho not depend on the amount of good and bad deeds they have piled up. Here Martin will certainly not play god and separate the just from the sinners, this is not the way his books are intended. So there is no irredeemable character for me, on principle, neither in RL nor in the books, I believe that every character has a compelling story and if it is Tyrion's storyline to have murdered his own father Martin may nontheless find a plot for him that gives him a positive ending. I am of course aware that a kinslayer has committed a huge taboo crime and that Martin would have to be creative here. Apart from that even in these forums posters highly disagree which deeds are unforgivable, in the moral system of Martin's world or our own concept of morality. So if Tywin has been indeed Tyrion's biological father this would in no way mean that in Martin's eyes Tyrion has to die as only possible plot turn. If GRRM wants he can write him out of that, we will see. I personally would want Tyrion to go on living with that baggage on his soul, that twisted father son relationship is too good to be false. And the Tysha story or the murder of Shae as well are part of Tyrion's character, he should never find Tysha but go on living being aware of what he did. I do not think that the author should solve all the problems for his characters. Life is about learning to live with your burdens, some of them you will never be able to leave behind. So adding up good or bad deeds to calculate a character's exact position on a scale of grey will not help us to determine his or her chances of a remotely positive survival.

I'm certainly not saying that GRRM will have the "good" guys "win" or whatever. My point is about the world mythology that GRRM created around kinslaying. It would seem that bad luck happens to you after kinslaying, magically or whatever, just like the GRRM world mythology that it's easier to create wildfire if there are dragons in the world. That sort of cause and effect relationship doesn't seem to be at hand here. Tyrion, if anything, has been more lucky since killing Tywin. It's obviously not conclusive. But I think it's worth thinking about whether GRRM wants his favorite character to have terrible luck from now to the end. Probably not given what happened in ADWD.

[Wellspring]

Tyrion a Targ? A little bit of a soap opera. But... combined with my other crackpot theory...

I've always suspected that Cersei might have arranged Joanna Lannister's death in childbirth. Joanna had caught Cersei and Jaime at their "play". She'd had them separated and guarded after that, and warned them that if they ever did it again, she'd tell Lord Tywin. We know that didn't stop them having sex.

So what if she did catch them? Or what if Cersei simply wanted her mother out of the way? Faking a death in childbirth is relatively easy in medieval times-- a midwife's quick hand with a knife at the right moment and no one's the wiser. Poison is another possibility (and imagine if that's what caused Tyrion's deformities!). Eliminating the valonquar before he's even born is pretty ruthless. Cersei by then would have already killed Melara Hetherspoon, why not another? (Update: I'm wrong on the timing-- Tyrion was born long before Cersei's date with Maggy the Frog.)

Tyrion bears the guilt for killing his mother and his father. But if the above is true and he's really Aerys's bastard, then things are totally different. He killed Lord Tywin, but he's no kinslayer. One twin killed his father, treacherously, and the other twin killed his mother, also treacherously. It makes for a weird symmetry for R+L=J as well. Tyrion, raised trueborn but truly a bastard, versus Jon, raised a bastard but the trueborn heir to westeros. Their almost instant friendship is founded not just in shared circumstances but in an uncle/nephew kinship.

It makes a weird kind of sense. Except that we're getting lots and lots of these, and there's only so many Surprise Family Ties and Main Character Resurrections we can handle.