Tyrion as a Targaryen

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Tywin is actually very family orientated, and if there wasn't some doubts about where Tyrion came from, i do not believe so much hate would develop simply because Tyrion was a dwarf and Joanna died giving birth to him

Yeah, see, I do. Maybe if Tyrion was a dwarf but Joanna had lived, or Joanna had died but Tyrion was Jaime II. But Tyrion being a dwarf and Joanna's death put together? Over the top.

I sincerely think that, even if Tyrion was Aerys' son (which I do not believe, at all), if he hadn't been a dwarf and/or Joanna hadn't died, none of this would be an issue. That's why the supporting argument of "Tywin doesn't think Tyrion is his!" does not fly with me.

The biggest oddity though would be how Aerys refused to have Cersei marry Rhaegar. That simply doesn't add up for Targs. Also, the twins have never shown any Targ like traits except for maybe a bit of madness.

They practice incest and Cersei was just a tad too keen on watching the Tower of the Hand burn down. I've also seen it suggested that they're the two sides of the coin — greatness (Jaime) and madness (Cersei).

[Eugene Toussaint]

Yeah, see, I do. Maybe if Tyrion was a dwarf but Joanna had lived, or Joanna had died but Tyrion was Jaime II. But Tyrion being a dwarf and Joanna's death put together? Over the top.

I sincerely think that, even if Tyrion was Aerys' son (which I do not believe, at all), if he hadn't been a dwarf and/or Joanna hadn't died, none of this would be an issue. That's why the supporting argument of "Tywin doesn't think Tyrion is his!" does not fly with me.

I think the one think that needs to be kept into prospective here is Tyrion being a Targ is not something Tywin would definitely know either way. So, his thoughts about Tyrion being a Targ would manifest in more doubt about who's Tyrion's father is, rather then knowing Tyrion is not his (which there seem to be clear evidence that he at least doubted who Tyrion's father was) which support why he did not kill Tyion (1) he was not sure and (2) b/c then he would have been supporting the Aery raped my wife story, b/c even though Tyrion is a dwarf, the idea that people in the world of Westeros killing deformed babies all the time is something that only applies to commoners, not one of the seven most powerful families in the realm, where questions are going to be asked if you kill one of your own

this also support the idea that Aery violated in some way more than just denying the Cersi matching (sex with Tywin wife), which is why Tywin did not support during the rebellion because Tywin was not the late Walder Frey, he was not just waiting to see what side won the war and support that side, he knew that if the West added their power to the Targ, the rebellion would not have won, which could of probably easily have locked up a new match for Cersi with Viserys

which poses the question if that what he wanted in the first place, why didn't he support the Targ? is not like he knew Robert would marry Cersi if he did what he did

[Lady Storm]

Regarding Tyrions eyes as evidence for him being the Mad kings son:

For argument's sake, let us assume that his black eye is indeed purple.

First, we have to assume that this is not a genetic mutation but a trait he inherited from an ancestor. The only Targ we know of that had mismatched eyes is Shiera Seastar. However,

a) she's not in Aerys direct lineage

B) her eyes are blue and green (at least according to awoiaf wiki page)

That would mean both of them had to inherit the trait for someone further up the ancestral line. Now, I’m basing this on the awoiaf wiki pages, so if something is wrong there, so will my conclusion be. The lineage for the eyes goes like this:

8. Tyrion (?)

7. Aerys II

6. Jaehareys

5. Aegon V

4. Maekar I

3. Daeron II

2. Aegon IV (father to both Daeron and Shiera)

1. Other Targ – direct ancestor for both Shiera and Tyrion.

That would mean that Tyrion is the first in at least 7 generations to show this trait.

It sounds at least equally as possible that his eyes are a trait that he got from some Lannister, since we don’t really know much about them (or at least not as much as we know about the Targs).

[Pellaeon]

If Tyrion is a secret Targ i gonna vomit

[Ragnorak]

I've gone back and forth on this one in my head. Tywin seems to be one of the most unknown characters. Most everything we "know" about him comes from various unreliable narrator perspectives. Martin has placed plenty of hints that give readers cause to question if Tywin is the person people believe him to be. So if details like Joanna and Tywin being in love are true, Tyrion being a Targ is far less likely. If Joanna never loved Tywin and actually enjoyed being the object of a King's desire then Tyrion being a Targ is far more likely. Remember Joanna was at court since she was a girl and knew Aerys well before she married Tywin. We know nothing about her or what she thought of Aerys or Tywin. Every bit of information we have about her comes through the prism of Tywin admirers.

I think it is highly probable that Tywin started plotting to marry Cersei to a potential heir and eliminate whoever stood between her and a crown once her marriage to Rhaegar was rejected. We will probably learn more about Tywin and his actions as Hand in the upcoming books and this new information will either fuel Tyrion as a secret Targ or put it to rest.

[Serie]

If Tyrion is a secret Targ i gonna vomit

yes, same here. Although after all this time reading the argumentation I've come in terms with this theory....

[Starke]

I think that a strong evidence that Tyrion is NOT a Targ comes from Quaithe's prophecy, that a lot of people seem to disregard.

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal".

So far throughout the novels, Quaithe has never been wrong in her prophecies. The only lion in this case would the Tyrion.

[Lady Storm]

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal".

So far throughout the novels, Quaithe has never been wrong in her prophecies. The only lion in this case would the Tyrion.

Yes, but it's not really a prophecy, more like a cell phone - not all the people she named are coming to Dany, but they where when Quatihe said so. And Tyrion is officially a Lannister, so that's what she would call him.

[The Summer Islander]

I think that as far as Tywin goes he hates Tyrion because, Tyrion is a dwarf, grotesque, a drunkard, a whore, ect. But he's very intelligent like Tywin, and he KNOWS for that fact that Tyrion is indeed his son. I'm not saying that Jaime and Cersei are stupid, but they are far from Tyrions IQ. With that being said, I feel that during the time Tyrion was conceived, Johanna and Aerys had no contact and they didn't have the oppourtunities for any kind of relations to take place (I am working under the theory that A+J happened once or twice by force). Therefore Jamie and Cersei are Aerys children (yep I'm one of those peope). I also don't think that Tywin would suffer through his wife cheating on him willingly and becoming pregnant and not getting rid of it. Tywin is no fool. But we are all fools for something or someone at some point in life and if Tywin ever were a fool it was for Johanna. Why would Tywin think that Jamie and Cersei are not his? Well I think he may have know about the rape, but was unwilling to take action against Aerys because, well he was THE king and no one wants to be a kin or kingslayer (later his "son" did what he may have wished he could have, but ultimately could not). Also the twins are super beautiful. Uncommonly beautiful. Lannisters are not super and uncommonly beautiful. Both Johanna and Tywin are both Lannisters. They may be cute, nice looking, or even attractive but we know they don't possess the beauty that the twins do. But we do know that Tarygaryens are super and uncommonly beautiful (you could argue that a lot of other familes are super and uncommonly beautiful like the Daynes and Valeryonssp?, but we are not talking about other families we are talking about TARGARYENS and LANNISTERS). Obviously I think Aerys wanted Johanna or he would not have raped her, but I don't think he coveted her out of some other ill born jealousy of Tywin as we are lead to believe. I think Tywin was indeed jealous of Aerys because of the beautiful children that he produced with the love of Tywins life. Look at what came from him and Johanna compared to what was produced by Aerys and Johanna. Tywin being the pround man that he is would never, ever admitt that such beautitul, promising children were not his. So of course took a great liking for them because eveyone marvled about them, and thought they were his.

I think is why he chose to give Tyrion a name starting with Ty. It is possible that Johanna pick the twins names, but why would Tywin let her name "his" son something other than a more family sounding name? I think he has always had doubts about the twins, but never Tyrion.

But basically it would be ever sooo sweet if the two children he were most proud of and praded around were not his, and the one he hated was.

[LadyStormborn]

Not sure why but i'm only hearing this theory now. I think its plausible! I would love it to be true but i'm thinking that its George trying to throw us of the scent of something else. It all seems a bit too obvious! I hope i'm wrong!

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I don't think so

I would be really upset with it

he's a Lannister

but if you start to think there are some stuff that can deny that

remember: Tyrion always loved dragons, he used to play with imaginary dragons when he was a kid, so I think there's a small posibility of some Targaryen blood.

But even though I think it's like 0,1% to turn out he's a Targ

[naik2902]

I'm sure this theory has been already discussed to death, but I'm on my re-read now of the series preparing for Dance with Dragons, and I'm getting increasingly confident that this is true, and that there is a lot of forshadowing by Martin in all the books.

I've just read the Tyrion chapter in SoS where he talks with Tywin who denied him Casterly Rock, and where Tywin comments that he could never prove that Tyrion is not his son, so he is forced to treat him as one of his family. Now that by itself may not mean much, just an indication of the dislike that Tywin has for his dwarf son. But I believe this is the second time that Tywin makes the same comment, and it seems strange that Tywin would keep making the same otherwise petty comment - unless he seriously felt that Tyrion could possibly not be his son.

Tywin's last words to Tyrion are also "You are not my son". Admitedly he says the same thing to Jaime, which in fact makes me wonder if this is not a deliberate red herring.

But we also know that Tywin was 20 years the hand of the king. We know that Aerys was envious of him. We know that Aerys wronged him many times, and that this led to Tywin abandoning his post and position, apparently the only man Aerys feared so much as to not try and punish him for it. We are led to believe that what pushed Tywin to leave Aerys' service was Jaime entering the kingsguard, but again we have that from third-hand.

I think the theory that Aerys at some point forced himself on Joanna is a very possible one. Tywin otherwise seems to be at least logical, he knows that death at childbirth is not a conscious fault of the child, to hold a grudge against Tyrion for it. But if he had reason to suspect the child was not his, he would have reason to have such hate for him. It would also explain his own hatred for Targaryens, leading him to order the murder of Rhaegar's children, and letting King's Landing be sacked (which would to him be a city that stayed loyal to Aerys).

At the same time in Feast, Aemon tells Sam that both he and his brothers dreamed of dragons. We know that Daenerys dreamed of dragons before she had her eggs hatched. And if I remember correctly, in book 1 Tyrion also tells Jon that he used to dream of dragons - or at least that he was fascinated by them. If I recall correctly one of his mismatched eyes is also the Targaryen color.

It also seems to have a nice symmetry to it with Tyrion now going to find Dany, and a nice symmetry to the story, with all 3 main characters (Dany, Tyrion and Jon), being the last descendants of a once mighty but fallen dynasty, all 3 of which had to suffer being outcasts in some way in their childhoods.

What do people think? I know that this is probably reviving an old theory, but I didn't want to resurrect any old threads, and I think this is a mystery that could possibly be soon revealed in Dance.

i think jamie and cersei are targaryens and tyrion is his own blood and tywin knew the whole truth.

tywin only hates him coz he is dwarf.

may be tywin dont like when tyrion sleep with whores and wanted to marry one and the real reason may be he doesnt approve his own blood doin this. however tywin ignores the truth about the incest of jamie and cersei.

[Newstar]

Yes, but it's not really a prophecy, more like a cell phone

Haha, awesome! Four for you, Lady Storm!

On the hair issue...Tyrion's hair just makes no sense given his parentage. The description of his straight, "white-blonde" hair doesn't really tell us much, since Tommen's hair is also described as "white-blonde" (although I guess it could darker as Tommen ages, as that often happens with blond children). The black hair is what throws me. How do you get blond, curly-haired parent + blond, curly-haired parent = lank white-blonde hair with black streaks (at least with weird Westeros genetics, where Baratheon black hair/blue eyes trumps the mother's colouring every time)? It seems like an obvious clue that Tyrion's colouring is not what it should be if his parentage is 100.0% Lannister. Another clue is that Tywin and Joanna had similar colouring, so any Lannister traits in Tyrion's appearance (like a green eye) could be attributable to her.

As for the eyes, it seems notable that the only other character we know of with this trait is a Targ bastard. The fact that she had a green eye/blue eye combination is almost too obvious (a green-eyed Targ?).

I've seen the theory that Lanna, the daughter of the Sailor's Wife, is Tyrion's daughter with Tysha, and her colouring (blonde hair, green eyes) seems to lean heavily on Lannister family features (Tysha was dark-haired, so she didn't get those traits from her mom). On the other hand, I've also seen it speculated that Marei, a prostitute at Chataya's is one of Tyrion's bastards; Marei can read, which sets her apart from most of the other prostitutes at the brothel, and she has "silvery" hair (also described as "white-gold") and green eyes. If Marei is Tyrion's bastard daughter--and we're unlikely to find out the truth--then that would seem entirely consistent with the "Tyrion is a secret Targ" theory. Lanna gets the Lannister hair/eyes, Marei gets the Targaryen hair and the Lannister eyes.

Tyrion liked to play at being a Targaryen prince as a boy, right? In this series, you either never get what you want, or you get what you want in the worst possible way. The worst possible way for Tyrion to be a Targaryen would be to learn that he was a bastard and the product of Aerys' rape of Joanna. It would also be horrible, since as much as he's cut ties with the Lannister family, Tyrion's sense of heritage and birthright as a Lannister is probably the one point of pride left to him. Apart from his intelligence, it seems to be the one thing he really likes about himself, in spite of everything...which probably means he'll lose even that.

Also, Tyrion being Targ would give him a get-out-of-kinslaying-free card, I think, so there's that. If GRRM wants Tyrion to survive the series, he has to contrive some endrun around the much-ballyhooed kinslaying curse, and that would be one way to do it. If, on the other hand, GRRM wants Tyrion to share in the fate of House Lannister (ruin and likely extermination), he'll keep him a Lannister until the bitter end.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Tyrion's a secret Targaryen! Everyone's a secret Targaryen! :lmao:

Sorry but I don't think that this theory is true. Of course you're welcome to have it but I just think that it's not true. Tywin just hates Tyrion. It's as simple as that.

[Commander Jon Snow]

Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion are all Lannisters. Too many secret Targs at this point

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Two secret targs is not too many. Its just cause so many people try to name everyone as a secret targ. I believe there is a lot of evidence at the possibility for tyrion to be a targ and for jon to be a targ.

Dragon dreams. Wanting to be a lost targaryen prince. Tywin's indifference towards tyrion. He killed his mother in the birthing bed..as did jon...and dany...his miscolored eye could stem from targaryen decent. And of course the infatuation aerys had for joanna. Its possible that they had a secret love. They grew up at court together. And aerys was a charmer. He only went mad after duskendale from the dreams of blood and fire. So I do find a strong possibility that tyrion is the son of aerys. It would also give an awesome parallel for him and jamie. Jamie killed tyrion's father. And tyrion killed jamie's

[houseHB]

I think if any of the Lannister siblings are secret Targs it is Jaime and Cersei. I think Tyrion would be too obvious since we all know he loves reading about the history of dragons. I can see A+J = J and C, with Jaime having the sane Targaryen traits while Cersei has the Targaryen madness.

[Lucius]

Hi people, I´ve just come to this. You´ve probably discussed all of this long ago, but i´ve been reading many posts and i can´t but notice that you all seem to forget one very important fact.

This discussion is not about a real life fact, it´s about a plot, in a novel... writen by someone, and that someone is G.R.R.M.

that said, and the fact that i´m a psicology student in south america (hence my not perfect english).. well, i think i could add something else to consideration...

i by no means claim to have an answer for this or any other riddles that martin sets in the story.. but i think this items could add new light to any mistery from the book you investigate..

- Martin is a very skillful and meticulous story creator.. that means, he leaves nothing to chance or randomnes (?), he chooses every word he uses...

- Martin probably deliberately set false clues for misleading.. who guessed ned was going to be killed that way? he loves misleading and surprising plot twists.. so, if Martin is telling you, i dont know, Aegon was not dead, or Tyrions may not be Twyns son, or Neds is Jon father... it´s not wrong for you to think that is just a resourse to make you look the other way... to disguise a plot twist..

- I think Martin set the whole story for us to be dying to know who´s who.. and creating intrigues and stuff.. and i think Martin set false evidence to frame innocent people..

so, as this is not a real life case, if you have a pile of evidence pointing A, and a little evidence pointing B.. it´s not wrong to consider that Martin wants us to think its A before revealing its B.. and all the A evidences can be use to strenth the B theory.. can you follow me?

- I dont know if Tyrion, Jaime, or Cersei are targeryan, i think he may use this idea, to conceal a little more Jon´s identity, wich is the most convincing theory.. and it´s an idea that any regular reader can stumble upon without entering discussion forums (that was my case, thouh i entered the forums to confirm it and found a lot more evidence than i personaly connected on my first reading)...

- So, i wont tell you what to believe (it´s after all just a matter of believing, until all the books are over).. but consider in your cases that this are not real clues, this are hints left by a creator, and the whole story it´s allready created in his mind..

lets just say that Martin wanted a young, male, humble, honorable cliched hero but wanted to set him in a very realistic non-cliched world... how to create it and make it believable?

make 3 books about his family, make the first book all about his honorable serious father, the second about his young strong siblings and their loving courageous mother, the third about his friends and the way he acts in life, make him have friends and foes and make him make decisions following what he has learned form his father and siblings... and then kill them all.. but wait.. also, make this not his real family.. at the end, you just have the cliched character you wanted in the first place, raised by a cliched family but that is not his own and stripped of all the clasic predictable boring stuff regular fantasy books have... finaly, give him a very very regular looks and name, something like jon doe, or jon snow or something...

that how the whole story works.. he wants a strong independent dragon riding heroin, (is that not a cliche?).. ok, create her a long dinasty, make her exiled, kill her whole family, her love, her son, make her wage war agianst powerful foes and make people long for the moment when she finaly comes to save the world.. there you go, another cliched character in a non cliched world...

I don´t think Aegon is real, but there has to be a third head for the dragon..

also, cersei is going to be killed by the valonquar.. wich Martin makes us believe is Tyrion, so it´s probably not him.. that leaves Jaime.. and if Tyrion is not the third head, then Jaime could..

now... if i have to choose.. I would rather none of them to be a Targaryen.. tell you why.. the whole "hidden targeryan lost child" it´s allready used for Aegon at first, and for Jon (in the most concistent theory yet).. making Aegon more likely to be Ilyrio-Serra son.. and used by Martin to cover up Jon´s twist...

and we all asume the three heads have to have Targeryan blooded, now, if Jon is one of the heads as we all believe, that means it could be half-blooded.. asuming Jon is Lyanna´s, by the Jon-arya-lyana resemblense... so the other head could alse be half-blooded..

now, nobody considers the Baratheon also have targeryan blood, (that´s Roberts claim to the throne), they are linked by Rhaelle Targeryan, mother of Steffon, grandomther of Robert, Stannis and Renly, Daughter of Aegon IV, sister of Jaehaerys... so, Stannis and Shireen, and all the Robert´s bastards, (even Gendry) have Targeryan blood.. at least a bit..

now, T=T theory supporters claim that tyrion dragon dreams are important, and anti T=T supporters say that non-targeryan may dream of dragons, we don´t know that.. but we do know that not all targeryan blooded dream of dragons.. or at least it´s safe to asume that.. otherwise martin would´ve make any mention on that...

shireen does dream of dragons, good, but Stannis? Gendry? Jon? any mention of that at any point?

now, i do think dragon dreams are important for Martin.. and i also think he phrased tyrion´s mention of the dreams in such a confusing way on purpuse..to make us doubt...

shireen´s way of phrasing is much more direct...

finally, I honestly think that if Barristan Selmy (member of the KG of Aerys) would´ve known that Daenerys has a bastard half brother.. he would have said that to her..

and if it´s not barristan, who would tell us the truth? in a way that we believe it as readers? We have Reed to tell the whole truth about Jon.. but who can tell the truth about any of the Lannisters?

well that´s all for now..

see ya...

[mtoh]

In the HBO series, Tyrion eyes are both green. GRRM wounldnt have let that happen if T=T

[BericDondarrion]

It would be a better twist if it was Jaime and Cersei who are actually fathered by Aerys, it would make the line of Aerys telling Jaime to bring him his fathers head much more ironic!