[ADWD Spoilers]Jon's parentage

[Nightstar]

Ned do not know her? I find a bit hard to believe that no one noticed the difference in how Robert loved Lyanna, and she do not loved him? No one noticed, no how gossiped? Basically the King become King because of a women that do no love him, and no one know, noticed or even heard something to reveal the irony of this?

Who would tell him, even if they knew? Robert had a quick temper and a deadly warhammer! Also, he was a womanizer, and men like that always think themselves irresistible to women.

Ned tells Robert in the crypt that he did not really know Lyanna;

you saw the beauty but missed the steel.

He also recalls how he tried to console his sister on the night their father promised her hand to Robert. Robert was not Lyanna's choice, the marriage was arranged by her father.

What should have he done? How about simply tell Cat, as Lord Stark and husband: "He stays"?? Perhaps soften Cat with the truth? Make arrangements for Jon to be squire of someone, marrying him to someone?? Ned was Lord Stark, he could have arrange something better for Jon. The wall was simply a bad arrangement for a boy, made only because Ned simply do not wanted to fight with his wife, and do not wanted to think more of the future of Jon. If Jon was truly the son of his sister (even a legitimater son, as in some R+L=J theories), was going honorable Ned simply take the easy way out?

Of course! That was what Ned always did- take the easy way out.

When he learned that Robert had emptied the treasury and nearly bankrupted the country, what did he do? Nothing.

When he learned that Mycah was unjustly accused, what did he do? Nothing.

When he learned that Lady was going to be killed for no reason, what did he do? Why, butchered her himself.

In the Ned-Robert encounter, i am not talking of revelations. In GOT is explicitly said in that chapter (sorry for the lack of quotation) that Ned felt love for Robert for he still remenbering Lyanna. Do you think that is normal to fell love for your best friend, if you realize that the poor bastard still mourns and suffers for a girl (even your sister) that never loved him?? Ned should felt sadness and preocupation, not simple love.

Ned did love and pity Robert. He could never tell him the truth, simply because Robert could not accept it..

Jon went because he knew that after Ned went away, that there was no place for him at Winterfell. He took the black because there was a Stark in the Wall and thought that was honorable to serve in the NW. It was a lesser evil, nothing more.

But he was far too young to make such a life-altering decision, and he had no concept about what service on the wall really was.

He was misled.

Ned owed him the truth about his parentage, but nce again, Ned was the King of Good Intentions, and actually did...nothing.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Jon is certainly Stark, so he must have had a dire wolf, whether he is Ned's son or nephew…

Well, albino dire wolf could be a sign of other side of him - a Targ, for example.

Interesting. The only other Targaryen–First Men hybrid we know of, Bloodraven, has a white dragon as his standard and is himself an albino.

[Chirios]

Of course! That was what Ned always did- take the easy way out.

When he learned that Robert had emptied the treasury and nearly bankrupted the country, what did he do? Nothing.

When he learned that Mycah was unjustly accused, what did he do? Nothing.

When he learned that Lady was going to be killed for no reason, what did he do? Why, butchered her himself.

tbf, there was nothing he could do for those three things.

Ned did love and pity Robert. He could never tell him the truth, simply because Robert could not accept it..

Indeed. Robert was ultimately quite a weak individual.

But he was far too young to make such a life-altering decision, and he had no concept about what service on the wall really was.

He was misled.

Ned owed him the truth about his parentage, but nce again, Ned was the King of Good Intentions, and actually did...nothing.

Not true. Jon was misled, I suppose, but Ned actually thought that going to the wall was a good thing. Had Brandon not been alive, Ned would've been perfectly fine with going to the Wall himself; so he didn't have a problem with Jon going. Don't forget, Ned was fully ready to get into a serious argument with Catelyn about Jon staying, which he would've won.

[Nightstar]

tbf, there was nothing he could do for those three things.

He didn't try very hard, did he? A weak protest, and he let it go.

(He could, for example, have released Lady instead of killing her; why didn't he?)

Not true. Jon was misled, I suppose, but Ned actually thought that going to the wall was a good thing. Had Brandon not been alive, Ned would've been perfectly fine with going to the Wall himself; so he didn't have a problem with Jon going. Don't forget, Ned was fully ready to get into a serious argument with Catelyn about Jon staying, which he would've won.

I doubt he would have won, simply because he wouldn't have tried very hard. He'd have put up a token protest, and then caved.

That was the way Ned operated.

[hotweaselsoup]

What should have he done? How about simply tell Cat, as Lord Stark and husband: "He stays"?? Perhaps soften Cat with the truth? Make arrangements for Jon to be squire of someone, marrying him to someone?? Ned was Lord Stark, he could have arrange something better for Jon. The wall was simply a bad arrangement for a boy, made only because Ned simply do not wanted to fight with his wife, and do not wanted to think more of the future of Jon. If Jon was truly the son of his sister (even a legitimater son, as in some R+L=J theories), was going honorable Ned simply take the easy way out?

Perhaps Ned kept silent because he was honoring the promise he made to Lyanna on her deathbed. A vow, which I suspect, involved him never revealing Jon's parentage to anyone, ever.

[Chirios]

I doubt he would have won, simply because he wouldn't have tried very hard. He'd have put up a token protest, and then caved.

That was the way Ned operated.

Ned did what he was told to do, when he was duty bound to do so. He isn't duty bound to do whatever Catelyn tells him, so we can't say for sure what would've happened.

Perhaps Ned kept silent because he was honoring the promise he made to Lyanna on her deathbed. A vow, which I suspect, involved him never revealing Jon's parentage to anyone, ever.

This. Ned's morality system depends on keeping his word, regardless, so if she said protect him and don't tell anyone, that's what he'd do.

[Ghost Rider]

Perhaps Ned kept silent because he was honoring the promise he made to Lyanna on her deathbed. A vow, which I suspect, involved him never revealing Jon's parentage to anyone, ever.

In that case I wonder why he was angsting so much about having to talk to Jon about something!

[Ghost Rider]

Indeed. Robert was ultimately quite a weak individual.

There base for friendship maybe? :devil:

Not true. Jon was misled, I suppose, but Ned actually thought that going to the wall was a good thing. Had Brandon not been alive, Ned would've been perfectly fine with going to the Wall himself; so he didn't have a problem with Jon going. Don't forget, Ned was fully ready to get into a serious argument with Catelyn about Jon staying, which he would've won.

Well, if Ned really thought taking the black is a good idea, he must be stupid! Whyever would anyone think of that as a good idea - much less for a boy who knows nothing much about life? There was absolutely no known purpose in going to the wall at the time - fighting some wildlings, big deal, really! And he didn't even really protest, he was anguished before Maester Luwin brought up the subject of Jon leaving for the Wall because he obviously had no idea what he could do, but he seems to have been relieved of that suggestions and whatever words of protest he brought forwards then only showed his need to persuade himself that it wasn't too bad.

How do you know that Ned would have been perfectly fine going to the Wall himself?

And I think Catelyn would have won the argument, she seems to have been much the stronger personality of the two!

He didn't try very hard, did he? A weak protest, and he let it go.

(He could, for example, have released Lady instead of killing her; why didn't he?)

I doubt he would have won, simply because he wouldn't have tried very hard. He'd have put up a token protest, and then caved.

That was the way Ned operated.

:agree: with everything you said about Ned Stark in this post and the one before that! Just the way I see him - a weak man with good intentions.

[Luist311]

Who would tell him, even if they knew? Robert had a quick temper and a deadly warhammer! Also, he was a womanizer, and men like that always think themselves irresistible to women.

Ned tells Robert in the crypt that he did not really know Lyanna;

He also recalls how he tried to console his sister on the night their father promised her hand to Robert. Robert was not Lyanna's choice, the marriage was arranged by her father.

Of course! That was what Ned always did- take the easy way out.

When he learned that Robert had emptied the treasury and nearly bankrupted the country, what did he do? Nothing.

When he learned that Mycah was unjustly accused, what did he do? Nothing.

When he learned that Lady was going to be killed for no reason, what did he do? Why, butchered her himself.

Ned did love and pity Robert. He could never tell him the truth, simply because Robert could not accept it..

But he was far too young to make such a life-altering decision, and he had no concept about what service on the wall really was.

He was misled.

Ned owed him the truth about his parentage, but nce again, Ned was the King of Good Intentions, and actually did...nothing.

I am not sayin that someone should have telled this to Robert, i am saying that some character (POV or not) should have hinted us better to this situation. Basically, the Lord of a great house fighted for a women that do not wanted him. No one noticed? Because Robert not knowing Lyanna very well, do not mean that they do not love each other. Neither Lyanna crying when Rickard promised her to Robert. There is evidence in the text that this happened after Lyanna meeting Rhaegar? Could Lyanna cry when she was promised to Robert, before she know him, and afterwards she started to love him when they meet? I am not saying that i truly believe that this is the real timeline, but there is evidence in the text that truly contradicts this?

If Ned was a sort of men that do nothing, he wouldn't be a figurehead in Robert's rebellion, wouldn't inquire about the death of Jon Arryn and the "nature" of Cersei sons, and wouldn't have tried to give the throne to Stannis. In Westeros, the word of the King is final. Ned tried to change some things but when the King says no, it is over.

As i have said before, i do not expect that Ned reveals to Robert that Lyanna loved another. I expected that, as it was an POV character, that Ned expressed feelings more proper to the situation, and not feelings that are not consistent with the situation. Feeling love for a man that has been suffering for years for a love that only existed in his head?! Sad love, perhaps, not simple love.

Or simply Jon was Ned's bastard and in the end, Ned treated him as bastard. Ned gave in to Catelyn, because she ahd a point in not wanting Jon around. Honorable Ned tried to resolve matters in this way, because Cat was not fully wrong in this. If Jon is a Targaryen, Ned gaving in to Cat (when she was wrong) would be cowardice. And Ned was no coward. If Jon is simply a Snow, it was no cowardice. It was a lesser evil, by pleasing his wife (who had motives to feel injuriated) and by arranging something considered honorable (by some) for Jon, which was better that most bastards can afford to.

[Nightstar]

There base for friendship maybe? :devil:

Well, if Ned really thought taking the black is a good idea, he must be stupid! Whyever would anyone think of that as a good idea - much less for a boy who knows nothing much about life? There was absolutely no known purpose in going to the wall at the time - fighting some wildlings, big deal, really! And he didn't even really protest, he was anguished before Maester Luwin brought up the subject of Jon leaving for the Wall because he obviously had no idea what he could do, but he seems to have been relieved of that suggestions and whatever words of protest he brought forwards then only showed his need to persuade himself that it wasn't too bad.

How do you know that Ned would have been perfectly fine going to the Wall himself?

And I think Catelyn would have won the argument, she seems to have been much the stronger personality of the two!

:agree: with everything you said about Ned Stark in this post and the one before that! Just the way I see him - a weak man with good intentions.

This. Ned is presented as a man of honor, basically a good character- just like Dumbledore in the Harry Potter books.

But I can't stand either of them, just for the way they treated the helpless children in their charge: Ned dumping Jon on that awful Wall, Dumbledore handing baby Harry over to the abusive Dursleys! (And he knew they were abusive!)

Ned and Dumbledore wronged those boys, and what's more, they knew it. But they took the easy way out and told themselves it was for the best.

[Nightstar]

Ned did what he was told to do, when he was duty bound to do so. He isn't duty bound to do whatever Catelyn tells him, so we can't say for sure what would've happened.

Sure we can; Cat got her way when she didn't allow Jon to eat with the family when the court visited. Ned was unhappy about it but he gave Cat her way. It's his usual pattern of behavior.

[Geddus]

tbf, there was nothing he could do for those three things.

This is indeed true about the treasury, it's doubtful about Mycah and is definitely not true about Lady. He could have done plenty of things to prevent his daughter's innocent pet from being killed, instead he chose to slaughter her himself (by the way, that was unforgivable for me, I started to despise Ned in that occasion).

[Sasha Steelsong]

I am not sayin that someone should have telled this to Robert, i am saying that some character (POV or not) should have hinted us better to this situation. Basically, the Lord of a great house fighted for a women that do not wanted him. No one noticed? Because Robert not knowing Lyanna very well, do not mean that they do not love each other. Neither Lyanna crying when Rickard promised her to Robert. There is evidence in the text that this happened after Lyanna meeting Rhaegar? Could Lyanna cry when she was promised to Robert, before she know him, and afterwards she started to love him when they meet? I am not saying that i truly believe that this is the real timeline, but there is evidence in the text that truly contradicts this?

If Ned was a sort of men that do nothing, he wouldn't be a figurehead in Robert's rebellion, wouldn't inquire about the death of Jon Arryn and the "nature" of Cersei sons, and wouldn't have tried to give the throne to Stannis. In Westeros, the word of the King is final. Ned tried to change some things but when the King says no, it is over.

As i have said before, i do not expect that Ned reveals to Robert that Lyanna loved another. I expected that, as it was an POV character, that Ned expressed feelings more proper to the situation, and not feelings that are not consistent with the situation. Feeling love for a man that has been suffering for years for a love that only existed in his head?! Sad love, perhaps, not simple love.

Or simply Jon was Ned's bastard and in the end, Ned treated him as bastard. Ned gave in to Catelyn, because she ahd a point in not wanting Jon around. Honorable Ned tried to resolve matters in this way, because Cat was not fully wrong in this. If Jon is a Targaryen, Ned gaving in to Cat (when she was wrong) would be cowardice. And Ned was no coward. If Jon is simply a Snow, it was no cowardice. It was a lesser evil, by pleasing his wife (who had motives to feel injuriated) and by arranging something considered honorable (by some) for Jon, which was better that most bastards can afford to.

There is no POV character who could have hinted that Lyanna may have loved another other than Robert because everyone who knew the truth aside from Ned was dead. Those with Rhaegar, Lyanna, the Kingsguard...all of them that were there essentially (aside from Holland Reed and Ned) took the truth to their graves. The whole "Robert loved Lyanna and lost her" story was part of the cover for the truth. Robert clearly doesn't like Targaryens and even the hint that Lyanna went willingly would have hurt all of House Stark. Kings are allowed to keep their dillusions and there would be no reason or way for there to be greater hints than what was given, i.e. a scene where Lyanna shows misgivings at the notion that Robert will never be faithful. The truth is that if people are right and R+L=J then allowing Robert to believe that Lyanna was in love with him, protects not only Jon from questions but the family on the whole. It wasn't that she didn't know him, it was that she knew him all too well and did not like what she saw that is the problem. Thus your question as to whether she could have grown to love is really irrelevant because she didn't grow to love him in her lifetime and she did know him.

I don't get why you feel like Ned's feelings in the crypt with Robert were inappropriate (or insufficient), as having Ned think to himself about how bad he feels for Robert because Lyanna loved another would be, pardon me for saying this, the third grader's way of writing the story. Ned is obviously guilt-ridden about his secret, and if things were as Robert believes them to be than the guilt is totally out of place. But if Ned is hiding something from Robert, the guilt makes sense. Only an newbie writer would have Ned think explicitly about his vow to Lyanna and why he kept it and about how much Robert has wrong rather than doing what GRRM did which was to just hint at it. If you're going to draw out an issue/secret for an entire book series you are not going to give up like half of it when you first introduce the issue/secret.

If Jon is a Targaryen who has been hidden for fifteen some odd years then really the safest place for him was the Wall. Yes it was a hard life and one can certainly make the argument that Ned should have been more honest about what the Wall was really like, but it was also the only place in the Seven Kingdoms where another Targaryen was able to live out his life in peace. Robert was clearly still ready to kill Targaryen dragon spawn, but he left Maester Aemon alone because he was a Maester certainly but also because he'd taken the black and thus was no longer a threat to Robert's throne. If on the off chance Robert hadn't been killed and had found out that Jon was Rhaegars at some point in the future, Jon would have been insulated by his vow. We have to remember that when Jon took the black, for all intents and purposes, there was no possibility of a Targaryen restoration.

ETA: As to the question asked about how Ned would feel about going to the Wall himself...he'd be fine with it, as he had agreed to go to the Wall as part of the deal for Sansa's life. Joffery just screwed it up by killing him but Ned was prepared to live his life out on the Wall at the end of GOT.

[Dragonfish]

Ned do not know her? I find a bit hard to believe that no one noticed the difference in how Robert loved Lyanna, and she do not loved him? No one noticed, no how gossiped? Basically the King become King because of a women that do no love him, and no one know, noticed or even heard something to reveal the irony of this?

I think Ned likely knew, but he is obviously not going to tell Robert. Who else is there that could possibly have known? You haven't really answered this question.

I am not sayin that someone should have telled this to Robert, i am saying that some character (POV or not) should have hinted us better to this situation. Basically, the Lord of a great house fighted for a women that do not wanted him. No one noticed? Because Robert not knowing Lyanna very well, do not mean that they do not love each other. Neither Lyanna crying when Rickard promised her to Robert. There is evidence in the text that this happened after Lyanna meeting Rhaegar? Could Lyanna cry when she was promised to Robert, before she know him, and afterwards she started to love him when they meet? I am not saying that i truly believe that this is the real timeline, but there is evidence in the text that truly contradicts this?

There is no scene from the books where Lyanna cries after being betrothed to Robert. I think you're confusing that with the Knight of the Laughing Tree Story, in which we're told that the "she-wolf" (i.e. Lyanna) cried when the "dragon prince" (i.e. Rhaegar) sang his song. This is actually one of the bits of evidence that point to her loving Rhaegar and not Robert. It's funny, you keep saying that there are no hints for Lyanna loving Rhaegar, when I've already given you several in this and in one of my previous posts.

The problem with that quote is that it was not only his secret to share. Ned dishonored Catelyn and aggravated this dishonor by raising Jon with Cat's sons. This was not only about Ned, Jon and Lyanna. It was about Cat also, and i find hard to believe that Ned would do nothing to compensate Cat if he dishonor her because of his sister. Really what was Cat going to do, "sell" Jon to Robert? The nephew of her beloved husband? The trust of Ned in Cat, in the days of GOT, was so non-existent?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that it is not only his secret to share. It is his secret to share, and only his (well, and Howland Reed's, probably). And as he himself explicitly states, some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. So really, the only way you can possibly argue that Ned would not keep this secret from Catelyn is to say that Jon's true parentage is not a dangerous secret, which would be a ludicrous assertion.

Ned do not lie to protect Jon, you and others say he did. And in the matter of Sansa, he dishonor himself to protect his sons and wife, because he would take the black but Robb would still be Lord Stark and his daughters would stay alive. In the matter of Jon, he has chosen for him and Cat. In the matter of treason, he has chosen only for him. Would Ned still lie if he had to say that he AND Sansa or any other northmen were traitors?

See, that's the thing, if Ned doesn't tell Cat the truth, he might be "dishonoring" her, but if he does tell her the truth, then he's making her complicit in his own treason. Which is worse? By your own logic, Ned ought not to tell Cat.

[Blizzard]

I was thinking about this a while ago, could Jon's mother really be Lyanna but the father not being Ned? It could be a longshot but "promise me" could have been meant that nobody finds out who the real father of Jon is. This could also be linked into Jon being a head of the dragon if his father was Rhaegar.

[Dragonfish]

I was thinking about this a while ago, could Jon's mother really be Lyanna but the father not being Ned? It could be a longshot but "promise me" could have been meant that nobody finds out who the real father of Jon is. This could also be linked into Jon being a head of the dragon if his father was Rhaegar.

Yes, the current most popular theory is that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Nightstar]

ETA: As to the question asked about how Ned would feel about going to the Wall himself...he'd be fine with it, as he had agreed to go to the Wall as part of the deal for Sansa's life. Joffery just screwed it up by killing him but Ned was prepared to live his life out on the Wall at the end of GOT.

Oh sure, why not, if the choice was the Wall or execution.

I'd probably make the same choice, and I think the Wall is a horrible fate!

You can't really say that Ned was fine with such a ?choice?

[Sasha Steelsong]

Oh sure, why not, if the choice was the Wall or execution.

I'd probably make the same choice, and I think the Wall is a horrible fate!

You can't really say that Ned was fine with such a ?choice?

Yeah I can. Ned seemed okay with the idea of spending the rest of his life there when he agreed to go to save Sansa and Ned didn't seem to think that his own little brother was wasting his time there. Since the family had been going to the Wall for thousands of years and they had a long honorable tradition with serving the NW, I don't think Ned saw it as the bleak place it was, or that Jon was making a questionable choice. Truth is that the Wall was the only place he might be able to rise high in spite of being a bastard (whether he is or not is irrelevant since everyone when he made the decision to go to the wall believed him to be one and thus would assume he would carry a bastard's burden) even if it was a hard, lonely and unforgiving life. Every life Jon chose as a bastard would be hard, this at least protected him if the secret came out, gave him a way around being a bastard that could lead to success, and did not involved Ned committing any more treasons than he already had to make sure Jon had a place in this world (since there is no way Ned would have risen against Robert to give Jon back any birthright that might have been taken).

[Nightstar]

I still don't believe that Ned would have gone to the Wall if he'd had any alternative.

As for Benjen, we don't really know what his motivation was, but very few people at the Wall actually want to be there. Ned never speaks of it as a possible future for his sons with Catelyn.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I still don't believe that Ned would have gone to the Wall if he'd had any alternative.

As for Benjen, we don't really know what his motivation was, but very few people at the Wall actually want to be there. Ned never speaks of it as a possible future for his sons with Catelyn.

Ned's sons with Catelyn were legitimate...their roles were already set as Robb's bannermen. As a bastard however there were a lot less options for Jon and it was impossible for him to have the same path as a legitimate true born child so it is really like compairing apples to oranges. Ned never speaks of it but it doesn't mean that if one of his sons wanted to join he would be against it, the exception being Robb because he was the heir. Ned seems to have no problem with Benjen's choice and even if readers have speculation that there was a reason behind it, there has been really no indication of that in the text. I agree that the Wall is a sucky place but given the family history and Jon's options I can see why no one in book really thought it was a bad idea.