[ADWD Spoilers]Jon's parentage

[Jesstadreamer]

I don't think so, because Ned goes on to ask for Catelyn's forgiveness. Why would he need her forgiveness for taking Theon as a ward?

Also, I seem to recall that Ned always kept his distance from Theon, because one day he might have to execute him (if his father rose in Rebellion, or if Theon rose in Rebellion with his father and was captured). Based on this, I'm not sure why he'd wish for Theon to be like a brother to his children. It would actually be sort of cruel, I think, to wish for your children to grow close to this boy, knowing that one day you might have to kill him. So I really don't think Ned was referring to Theon in that scene.

Good point, didn't think of that. I was just thinking of Ned and his honor. It makes that line even more important when taking that view into account. So why would Ned want a child to grow up close to someone that is not "a brother?" Jon and Robb would still be considered brothers if Jon was Ned's child by blood though, or would he not be considered one since he is a bastard?

[Dragonfish]

So why would Ned want a child to grow up close to someone that is not "a brother?"

Why wouldn't he want Jon and Robb to grow up close as brothers? They're publicly brothers, after all, and even if this isn't technically true, Jon is still Robb's adopted brother. And I'm sure Ned wants to give Jon as welcoming a home as he can give a bastard, otherwise he wouldn't have brought Jon to Winterfell at all.

[iNinja]

If Jon is not Lyanna son, then only option remaining justifying both Jon being Stark AND Ned not being his father is son of Brandon...

Problem: Why the hell he didn't tell anyone of his brother's bastard? There is simply no known reason to hide Jon personality...

Basically I am 90% that R+L=J=PTWP=AAreborn and J+Deanny+Tyrion(who is Targ) will be dragonriders . Why? Maybe it is too easy, maybe we still have holes in history, but every new puzzle part we get fit this scenario completely (I expect only minor changes).

Maybe L+B=J

Lyanna and Brandon or Lyanna and BenJen. Ned was so mentally tormented and felt the disgrace for his family that he decided to just its his bastard to keep the Stark name a little cleaner then it would be if the incest was made public. It's not like Martin doesn't have incestous relationships throughout the story. :)

[Nightstar]

Yeah, I guess you're right. It's still just a pretty concrete and permanent move to have Jon take the NW oath because he doesn't think he has a place anywhere. But you're right...Ned's too loyal to Robert and his sister to put Jon in a situation where Robert would want to have him killed or whatnot.

That being said...It's still dickish to not let Jon know the truth and have all the information before making a life-changing vow to never hold land or be married. The reason Jon makes the decision to go to the NW is because he has no place in the world.

That's what I think too; Ned did what was expedient, as he so often did! (Regretful and guilty of course, but not enough to inconvenience himself).

Really I despise Ned almost as much as I do Tyrion.

[Ghost Rider]

Yeah, I guess you're right. It's still just a pretty concrete and permanent move to have Jon take the NW oath because he doesn't think he has a place anywhere. But you're right...Ned's too loyal to Robert and his sister to put Jon in a situation where Robert would want to have him killed or whatnot.

That being said...It's still dickish to not let Jon know the truth and have all the information before making a life-changing vow to never hold land or be married. The reason Jon makes the decision to go to the NW is because he has no place in the world.

That's what I think too; Ned did what was expedient, as he so often did! (Regretful and guilty of course, but not enough to inconvenience himself).

Really I despise Ned almost as much as I do Tyrion.

:agree: Yes, yes, yes!!! I just cannot forgive Ned for what he had done. First for not telling Jon the truth, second lying to Robert about Cersei's children. That one came right back at him too.

So maybe he was thinking of himself as a very honourable character, but there are dark stains on his white shirt, worse than just adultery. I don't really think he's a bad person, but a very weak one, not able to make the hard decisions.

This is a discussion about his decisions concerning Jon though, so I won't go on about the second.

If he really did love the boy, he should have told him before Jon was making life-changing decisions based on wrong assumptions. I also got the impression that Jon didn't really want to go to the NW, but felt he got no place at Winterfell and saw no other possibility. If Ned had taken real responsibility he should have thought about carereer choices earlier and talked to Jon about it.

Yeah, I know the parentage was very dangerous, but if he really felt he couldn't trust Jon with such a secret because of lacking maturity, he should have delayed his going to the NW. As it was - he probably was relieved. At the NW there's no way that Jon's going to become a rallying point for Targ loyalists. If I were Jon and learnt about the parentage now, I would be really pissed!

I really don't blame Cat for wanting to get rid of Jon - he was Ned's responsibility, one he had taken on willingly - he just wasn't able to see it through. He took the easy way out!

[Luist311]

Despite this being my first post, i have been reading this forum for a while. I've enjoyed quite a few theories that i found here, but one of those i simply cannot support: R+L=J.

These are some reasons for this:

In GOT, when Robert arrives in Winterfell he wants to go to visit Lyanna in the cripts. When Ned understant that his best friend still loves and mourns Lyanna, he felt love for him. It is not a bit strange that Ned simply felt love for his best friend, if he realise that Robert still thinks that Lyanna loved him?? Robert still mourns and suffers for Lyanna, thinking that he was robbed of her, when she loved another men. Ned knows this, and simply felt love? No sadness for his friend??

Despite Robert's ending as fat and depressed drunk, in his youth Robert appears to have his skills. Did he not noticed that Lyanna do not loved him, as he loved her? No one noticed? How, in five books, no character at least hinted to us the irony of Robert killing the true love of the women that he thinks is the love of his life? That Robert fighted and killed for a non-existent true love?

Ned is one of the most honorable characters of the series. Are we really intented to think that the man choose to "dirty" the honor of his wife, without at least tell her something (at least, some years into ther marriage)??

How is saying that Jon is a bastard supposed to save him, to give him a life? A bastard has no honor and no future. What is the true good of Ned fathered Jon?

Finally, Jon is sent to Wall ( at that time, a place full of criminals with no real purpose except looking out for wildlings) basically because Catelyn do not want him in Winterfell (because she thinks that Jon is a bastard of Ned)) and Ned do not want to fight with his wife. The man "dirty" his precious honor, and the honor of his wife, and marks Jon as bastard, to simply kick him to the wall because he do not want to face his wife??

[Ice Turtle]

:agree: Yes, yes, yes!!! I just cannot forgive Ned for what he had done. First for not telling Jon the truth, second lying to Robert about Cersei's children. That one came right back at him too.

So maybe he was thinking of himself as a very honourable character, but there are dark stains on his white shirt, worse than just adultery. I don't really think he's a bad person, but a very weak one, not able to make the hard decisions.

This is a discussion about his decisions concerning Jon though, so I won't go on about the second.

If he really did love the boy, he should have told him before Jon was making life-changing decisions based on wrong assumptions. I also got the impression that Jon didn't really want to go to the NW, but felt he got no place at Winterfell and saw no other possibility. If Ned had taken real responsibility he should have thought about carereer choices earlier and talked to Jon about it.

Yeah, I know the parentage was very dangerous, but if he really felt he couldn't trust Jon with such a secret because of lacking maturity, he should have delayed his going to the NW. As it was - he probably was relieved. At the NW there's no way that Jon's going to become a rallying point for Targ loyalists. If I were Jon and learnt about the parentage now, I would be really pissed!

I really don't blame Cat for wanting to get rid of Jon - he was Ned's responsibility, one he had taken on willingly - he just wasn't able to see it through. He took the easy way out!

I don't think he made mistake not killing children, but he should have send his daughters from KL much sooner,and even if that would be tricky with Sansas betrothal It could have been probably done.

What is little scary is that I think that Jon is becoming so coldblooded that he probably would have acted same way as Ned. Its not just Jon that is great risk for peace and realm but as Cat said Robb even his children and grandchildren.... If Jon is Targ NW is his place it eliminates danger he represents and if the truth ever came out, being part of NW would probably save Jons life.

Ned probably wanted wait till Jon was old enough it was more Cathelyns and Roberts fault that he couldn't.

[Dragonfish]

In GOT, when Robert arrives in Winterfell he wants to go to visit Lyanna in the cripts. When Ned understant that his best friend still loves and mourns Lyanna, he felt love for him. It is not a bit strange that Ned simply felt love for his best friend, if he realise that Robert still thinks that Lyanna loved him?? Robert still mourns and suffers for Lyanna, thinking that he was robbed of her, when she loved another men. Ned knows this, and simply felt love? No sadness for his friend??

Despite Robert's ending as fat and depressed drunk, in his youth Robert appears to have his skills. Did he not noticed that Lyanna do not loved him, as he loved her? No one noticed? How, in five books, no character at least hinted to us the irony of Robert killing the true love of the women that he thinks is the love of his life? That Robert fighted and killed for a non-existent true love?

This is irrelevant. R+L=J does not depend on Lyanna having loved Rhaegar, it only depends on Rhaegar having had sex with her, with or without her consent.

That said, I do believe Lyanna loved Rhaegar and ran off with him willingly, and there are several hints that this is the case (her statement to Ned that Robert would never change his womanizing ways, the fact that Ned found her clutching the blue roses that Rhaegar gave her, Ned's statement that Lyanna's wolf blood led her to an early grave, etc.). And it's not at all surprising that Robert wouldn't notice that she didn't love him, or that others didn't notice as well, because Robert is not very observant (for instance, he's totally oblivious to all the scheming his in-laws are doing), and the only other people who knew Lyanna well are either dead, or not likely to broach the subject in Robert's presence.

Ned is one of the most honorable characters of the series. Are we really intented to think that the man choose to "dirty" the honor of his wife, without at least tell her something (at least, some years into ther marriage)??

Ned specifically says in AGoT, "Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust." So yes, I do think Ned would keep this secret from Catelyn. It's right there in the text.

How is saying that Jon is a bastard supposed to save him, to give him a life? A bastard has no honor and no future. What is the true good of Ned fathered Jon?

The alternative for baby Jon was death or exile. In comparison, being raised in a Lord's household, even as his bastard, leaves him much better off.

Finally, Jon is sent to Wall ( at that time, a place full of criminals with no real purpose except looking out for wildlings) basically because Catelyn do not want him in Winterfell (because she thinks that Jon is a bastard of Ned)) and Ned do not want to fight with his wife. The man "dirty" his precious honor, and the honor of his wife, and marks Jon as bastard, to simply kick him to the wall because he do not want to face his wife??

What should he have done instead?

[LadyMary]

Dragonfish already gave good responses to these points, but I'd like to add my 2 Cents:

Despite this being my first post, i have been reading this forum for a while. I've enjoyed quite a few theories that i found here, but one of those i simply cannot support: R+L=J.

These are some reasons for this:

In GOT, when Robert arrives in Winterfell he wants to go to visit Lyanna in the cripts. When Ned understant that his best friend still loves and mourns Lyanna, he felt love for him. It is not a bit strange that Ned simply felt love for his best friend, if he realise that Robert still thinks that Lyanna loved him?? Robert still mourns and suffers for Lyanna, thinking that he was robbed of her, when she loved another men. Ned knows this, and simply felt love? No sadness for his friend??

I don't remember Ned explicitly thinking about feeling love for Robert in that moment, but it's safe to assume he did love Robert as like a brother. If Ne did love Robert I think he chose to spare Robert the truth about his sister; that she didn't love him and maybe, that she did Rhaegar whom Robert hated.

Despite Robert's ending as fat and depressed drunk, in his youth Robert appears to have his skills. Did he not noticed that Lyanna do not loved him, as he loved her? No one noticed? How, in five books, no character at least hinted to us the irony of Robert killing the true love of the women that he thinks is the love of his life? That Robert fighted and killed for a non-existent true love?

"True love" is about mutual respect and accepting someone for who they are - good and bad, not idolizing someone and putting them on a pedestal the way Robert did to Lyanna. In his mind, Lyanna was "stolen" and "raped" by the evil Rhaegar, and Robert was aggrieved and never got a chance to get to know the real woman, a point that Ned tries to make ("You didn't know her as I did...") . In other words, Robert loves the idea of Lyanna and what she represented; something beautiful and precious that was taken from him. If he had married her, he would have found her just as flawed as any other person. For her part, Lyanna had a very clear sense of Robert's character and knew he'd not be faithful to her for long.

Ned is one of the most honorable characters of the series. Are we really intented to think that the man choose to "dirty" the honor of his wife, without at least tell her something (at least, some years into ther marriage)??

How is saying that Jon is a bastard supposed to save him, to give him a life? A bastard has no honor and no future. What is the true good of Ned fathered Jon?

Yes. At least twice in his life Ned lied and took upon himself dishonor for something he didn't do, in order to protect the life of someone he loved. He lied to protect Jon, and he falsely confessed to being a traitor to protect Sansa. His personal sense of honor is less important to him than the safety of his family. That makes him even more honorable, in my opinion.

Finally, Jon is sent to Wall ( at that time, a place full of criminals with no real purpose except looking out for wildlings) basically because Catelyn do not want him in Winterfell (because she thinks that Jon is a bastard of Ned)) and Ned do not want to fight with his wife. The man "dirty" his precious honor, and the honor of his wife, and marks Jon as bastard, to simply kick him to the wall because he do not want to face his wife??

Benjen joined the Nights Watch. Joer Mormont. Aemon Targaryen. Waymar Royce. All honorable men who chose service either after they had done other things with their lives (Mormont, Aemon) or because they were third sons (Benjen and Royce) who didn't have the greatest prospect to inherit. For thousands of years Starks have been manning the Wall, long before it became a dumping ground for the criminals and political prisoners of Westeros. Jon was not forced to join the Nights Watch. It was something he had thought about doing one day for himself. I suppose you could argue that he was too young to make that decision, but really - like Benjen, he wasn't going to inherit. With Ned gone, both Jon and Ned could see the writing on the wall (no pun intended). If Jon had flatly refused to serve, I'm sure Ned would have found him a place with one of his bannerman somewhere, but he didn't have to because it wasn't only his decision - it was also Jon's choice.

[Geddus]

Did he not noticed that Lyanna do not loved him, as he loved her? No one noticed? How, in five books, no character at least hinted to us the irony of Robert killing the true love of the women that he thinks is the love of his life? That Robert fighted and killed for a non-existent true love?

Who should have told him? The only person who knew the truth for sure was Ned, and he didn't tell him for obvious reasons. Howland Reed most likely knew too, and he would keep silent for the same reasons as Ned's. Other people who might have known were dead by the end of the war.

Ned is one of the most honorable characters of the series. Are we really intented to think that the man choose to "dirty" the honor of his wife, without at least tell her something (at least, some years into ther marriage)??

Doesn't seem far-fetched to me. Early on he barely knew Catelyn so obviously he didn't trust her; when he was sure about her, she probably already hated Jon and it was too late to do anything. Plus it had to be believable, meaning that Catelyn had to hate Jon.

Also, that line quoted by Dragonfish explains many things, I believe.

How is saying that Jon is a bastard supposed to save him, to give him a life? A bastard has no honor and no future. What is the true good of Ned fathered Jon?

That's true for a common bastard. But remember, we are talking about a bastard raised in a castle, as a lord: he has both honor and future. Especially considering that the alternative was death.

Finally, Jon is sent to Wall

Didn't Jon himself decide to take the black?

[CrypticWeirwood]

That's true for a common bastard. But remember, we are talking about a bastard raised in a castle, as a lord: he has both honor and future.

I’d say that Brynden Rivers and even Aurane Waters have done quite well for themselves, despite being born bastards — Hand of the King and Master of Ships, respectively. True, the former was royal and the latter noble, but that is the point you are making, so I think Jon could have done well, too.

Catelyn may have been a problem, though.

[MtnLion]

In Ned's defense, Jon was under the age of majority when he left for the Wall. Having Benjen at the Wall to keep a wary eye on Jon helped, and I can imagine Ned planning to visit Jon and let him know the truth of his birth before he took his vows. That seems to make the most sense in light of Ned's character. To tell Jon earlier was to unreasonably hazard a child, but at the age of majority, Jon would be capable of making his own decisions, as a man.

[Gala]

I think we really have to keep remembering that we are not the average readers. I've talked to a bunch of ASOIAF fans who don't read these forums, and when I was talking about Jon's parentage, the question for them was /all/ between Ashara and Wylla. Nobody was even thinking of R+L=J. It's a theory you can come to alone, but it's a much easier theory to come to if you have a bunch of other people to obsessively research the books with you.

So I don't really think it's as obvious as you think.

Well, I don't think so! I haven't heard of these books until this spring (I'm from Eastern Europe and it wasn't so popular here before the film), but the first question I asked after 25 watching the 1st episode was: who was Jon's mother? and it was clear somehow to me that it is not Ned Stark. As I haven't heard of the pre-history of the story (about Brandon, the Wild Wolf), I thought Jon is either Benjen's or Lyanna's son (and even than I really hoped it was Lyanna and Rhaegar's love that gave birth to Jon), but later (after reading books) I was absolutely confident that Jon isn't Ned's son (too honorable and so on) and not Benjen's son (as the last one was too young to have a child, I mean, it doesn't fit the timeline).

I was clear to me that Lyanna wouldn't give herself so easily and then there were those tales about the tournament and honorable knight and comparing Arya with Lyanna…It was clear to me that Rhaegar REALLY loved Lyanna and she was in love with him, too. It is my favorite theory, maybe because it is so romantic, as the true knight, such as Rhaegar was, must die for love (according to Alexandre Dumas) and he did. The Targ Prince died with a woman's name on his lips (I bet it was Lyanna, not his wife's or any other woman's name).

[Gala]

Makes perfect sense, except that Dany sees Rhaegar telling Elia that Aegon is the 'song of ice and fire'. Now I accept that he's been wrong in the past about the PTWP, but he believes that the sond of ice and fire is Aegons not any potential future baby...

First of all, are you sure that Rhaegar called his son Jon (if R+L=J)? or may be Dany saw or understood the vision not right! Anyway in the vision, if I'm not mistaken, he told looking at Dany "There must be another one…the dragon has three heads" or something like that...

Secondly, were not given the description of the woman on the bed…may it was Lyanna, not Elia.

Also…why he was confident that the promised prince is Aegon…

And why not that promised prince should come of love (Lyanna) and not duty (Elia)

[Gala]

4. Ned implies that Jon is his.

This is more of a minor thing, but Ned's statements to Cat would have been purposefully misleading if the child was actually Lyanna's. From what we know about Ned, I can't see him having done this. Besides, wouldn't he have saved himself a lot of grief between himself and Cat if he had told her Jon's true parentage? After 15 years of marriage, you would assume that he had trusted her with many important secrets. If Jon was no longer viewed as a product of adultery by Cat, wouldn't that make him easier to love?

Also, as far as the direwolves go, it strikes me as odd if there would be one for each of Ned's children, and then one for his nephew.

Well, everything's possible.

I just remembered from the book, that Ned claims that "that secret"(Lyanna's) brought a lot of grief to him and Cat…something that he fully repaid for keeping that secret.

Correct me if I am wrong

Jon is certainly Stark, so he must have had a dire wolf, whether he is Ned's son or nephew…

Well, albino dire wolf could be a sign of other side of him - a Targ, for example.

[Dragonfish]

Secondly, were not given the description of the woman on the bed…may it was Lyanna, not Elia.

It was definitely Elia. For one thing, Rhaegar names his son "Aegon" in that scene, which is the same name as the child he had with Elia. For another, Rhaegar could not have been present for Jon's birth, as he was busy fighting and dying in a war.

Also…why he was confident that the promised prince is Aegon…

And why not that promised prince should come of love (Lyanna) and not duty (Elia)

Aemon tells us in AFFC that Rhaegar became convinced Aegon was the PWWP when he saw a red comet on the night of Aegon's conception.

[Black Crow]

As to Ned not telling Jon who his true father was, that's really got to have been a kindness for all concerned. For his sister's sake Ned brings him up as his own son in as loving a household as Cat will allow, but what then?

Dear Jon, you have now come of age and I have to tell you that you are really the son of Rhaegar Targarayen. King Robert is trying to off your cousins because he's afraid of the threat they present to him and his. But don't worry because even if he finds out about you, he and I are best friends and I'll try to persuade him not to, and in the meantime whatever you do don't raise up any banners or get daft ideas about being the rightful lawful king.

You want to take the Black? ...very sensible.

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

As to Ned not telling Jon who his true father was, that's really got to have been a kindness for all concerned. For his sister's sake Ned brings him up as his own son in as loving a household as Cat will allow, but what then?

Dear Jon, you have now come of age and I have to tell you that you are really the son of Rhaegar Targarayen. King Robert is trying to off your cousins because he's afraid of the threat they present to him and his. But don't worry because even if he finds out about you, he and I are best friends and I'll try to persuade him not to, and in the meantime whatever you do don't raise up any banners or get daft ideas about being the rightful lawful king.

You want to take the Black? ...very sensible.

I like this because it seems to show Neds true colors. His true blood brother Benjen is a ranger at the wall. Benjen is Lyanna's true blood brother as well. What would be so bad about Jon being not really his, but still a true wolf and true Stark as the son of his sister serving at the wall? Ned never says "you are my son", rather he tells Jon,"you are of my blood" before Jon goes to the wall.

Also, Ned promises to tell Jon of his mother when he returns from Kings Landing has completed his duty as Hand, knowing he will probably never in his lifetime, long-lived or not, after Jon has Taken the black. If he were to tell Jon of his true parentage as a Brother of the Nightswatch, what difference would it make? Jon would still be a Black Brother more than a Stark or a Targaryen.

I think the only one who knows the truth about the Tower of Joy or Jon Snow is Howland Reed, who we have heard so much of, but still have yet to see any of.

Maybe we will never really know?

[Ghost Rider]

I don't think he made mistake not killing children, but he should have send his daughters from KL much sooner,and even if that would be tricky with Sansas betrothal It could have been probably done.

Hehe, who said anything about killing them? It seems he was sure though that Robert would want to kill them which for me leads to the question as to why exactly they were friends. They seem to have a completely different stance on morality and it was rather obvious Robert wasn't a good king either - he just didn't care much about anything save hunting, drink and women.

If he thought Robert would kill the children (seems he at least assesses him better than Cersei!) and he had indeed good reason to believe so he could have "helped" Cersei to speed away her children - preferably without Jofferey though. Cersei should have been held as a hostage for Lannister good behaviour, maybe along with Jofferey. So - I do think there were alternatives to - doing nothing, leaving all action to his enemies - and killing children.

What is little scary is that I think that Jon is becoming so coldblooded that he probably would have acted same way as Ned. Its not just Jon that is great risk for peace and realm but as Cat said Robb even his children and grandchildren.... If Jon is Targ NW is his place it eliminates danger he represents and if the truth ever came out, being part of NW would probably save Jons life.

What do you mean with the coldblooded action? I don't really understand what you mean to say there.

It's true that Jon was a risk for peace, but ... if you have to chose between Jofferey as a king and Jon - I know who I would cheer for! And it all depends on the way of telling Jon the truth about his heritage.

Benjen joined the Nights Watch. Joer Mormont. Aemon Targaryen. Waymar Royce. All honorable men who chose service either after they had done other things with their lives (Mormont, Aemon) or because they were third sons (Benjen and Royce) who didn't have the greatest prospect to inherit. For thousands of years Starks have been manning the Wall, long before it became a dumping ground for the criminals and political prisoners of Westeros. Jon was not forced to join the Nights Watch. It was something he had thought about doing one day for himself. I suppose you could argue that he was too young to make that decision, but really - like Benjen, he wasn't going to inherit. With Ned gone, both Jon and Ned could see the writing on the wall (no pun intended). If Jon had flatly refused to serve, I'm sure Ned would have found him a place with one of his bannerman somewhere, but he didn't have to because it wasn't only his decision - it was also Jon's choice.

True - a few honorable men joined the NW. But you really have to get into the details to understand their decisions. Jeor Mormont had lived his life, he had been married, he had a son - he joined to make room for his son. His wife already seems to have been dead at the time. How can you possibly compare these circumstances?

Aemon Targaryen - he was a maester of the citadel before, he had served some lords in the south before he came to the wall. One of his reasons seem to have been that he didn't want to get involved in the politics of the realm - but, HE knew his heritage and could base his decisions on sound assumptions.

Don't get me started on Benjen - I think there's some secret as to why he joined the NW, even though it weakened the Stark family. He wasn't the third son, he was the second after Brandon's death and he joined only after Brandon's death after Ned had been coming home after the war. A second son is not useless to such a small family as the Starks. The North is a vaste region, Ned would need a second-in command he could trust, just as Robb might have needed one later on. And as far as I know nobody was saying - it would be a good idea for Rickon to join NW later on. They were thought to become Robbs' bannermen - just what I would have expected of Benjen.

I don't really understand what reasons Waymar Royce had for joining. The Royce family for sure was much larger than the Stark family - they had a lot of cousins besides some sons. There may have been other reasons as well, like e.g. he enjoyed the company of men, didn't want to have a family (like Blackfish) - we don't know much about him anyway.

Really - how anyone could think it would be honourable to join an institution that is offered to offenders as a capital punishment instead of execution, is anyone's guess. I don't get it.

About Jon wanting to join - I don't think he wanted to. You could only refer to the dialogue with Benjen in Jon I Agot. That whole chapter is one of self-deceit, starting with the first sentence. That boy was clearly drunk and very depressed when he made that "choice" (and manipulated besides to a certain extent I believe). Later on knowing Jon he probably wouldn't want to go back on his word and he didn't see any place in the world for himself anyway. He seems to have been fed stories of honour on the wall as well, probably by Ned and Benjen. Still, it's clear from the next Bran chapter that Jon was everything but happy when the decision was finally made and when they were leaving for the wall that he felt abandonned and yes, sent away.

As to Ned not telling Jon who his true father was, that's really got to have been a kindness for all concerned. For his sister's sake Ned brings him up as his own son in as loving a household as Cat will allow, but what then?

Dear Jon, you have now come of age and I have to tell you that you are really the son of Rhaegar Targarayen. King Robert is trying to off your cousins because he's afraid of the threat they present to him and his. But don't worry because even if he finds out about you, he and I are best friends and I'll try to persuade him not to, and in the meantime whatever you do don't raise up any banners or get daft ideas about being the rightful lawful king.

You want to take the Black? ...very sensible.

Yes, that's indeed what he should have done. But not this way of course. :) I would rather say something like: "Dear Jon, I have never told you about your mother so far. I know that must have been hurting you a lot, but I did it to keep you safe. I can only hope that you can forgive me, but I didn't see another way to save you. Now that you're old enough I think I can trust you with the truth - go on about the whole Rhaegar-Lyanna story - maybe add why you don't think that the Targs have any right claim to the throne. And even if you had the right claim, don't raise up hopes that people would look forward to a war (even though against Jofferey they might!) - there wasn't enough support for a Targ heir at this time anyway - just ask Viserys.

Jon is smart - he might understand that.

[Luist311]

This is irrelevant. R+L=J does not depend on Lyanna having loved Rhaegar, it only depends on Rhaegar having had sex with her, with or without her consent.

That said, I do believe Lyanna loved Rhaegar and ran off with him willingly, and there are several hints that this is the case (her statement to Ned that Robert would never change his womanizing ways, the fact that Ned found her clutching the blue roses that Rhaegar gave her, Ned's statement that Lyanna's wolf blood led her to an early grave, etc.). And it's not at all surprising that Robert wouldn't notice that she didn't love him, or that others didn't notice as well, because Robert is not very observant (for instance, he's totally oblivious to all the scheming his in-laws are doing), and the only other people who knew Lyanna well are either dead, or not likely to broach the subject in Robert's presence.

Ned specifically says in AGoT, "Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust." So yes, I do think Ned would keep this secret from Catelyn. It's right there in the text.

The alternative for baby Jon was death or exile. In comparison, being raised in a Lord's household, even as his bastard, leaves him much better off.

What should he have done instead?

Ned do not know her? I find a bit hard to believe that no one noticed the difference in how Robert loved Lyanna, and she do not loved him? No one noticed, no how gossiped? Basically the King become King because of a women that do no love him, and no one know, noticed or even heard something to reveal the irony of this?

The problem with that quote is that it was not only his secret to share. Ned dishonored Catelyn and aggravated this dishonor by raising Jon with Cat's sons. This was not only about Ned, Jon and Lyanna. It was about Cat also, and i find hard to believe that Ned would do nothing to compensate Cat if he dishonor her because of his sister. Really what was Cat going to do, "sell" Jon to Robert? The nephew of her beloved husband? The trust of Ned in Cat, in the days of GOT, was so non-existent?

What should have he done? How about simply tell Cat, as Lord Stark and husband: "He stays"?? Perhaps soften Cat with the truth? Make arrangements for Jon to be squire of someone, marrying him to someone?? Ned was Lord Stark, he could have arrange something better for Jon. The wall was simply a bad arrangement for a boy, made only because Ned simply do not wanted to fight with his wife, and do not wanted to think more of the future of Jon. If Jon was truly the son of his sister (even a legitimater son, as in some R+L=J theories), was going honorable Ned simply take the easy way out?

Dragonfish already gave good responses to these points, but I'd like to add my 2 Cents:

I don't remember Ned explicitly thinking about feeling love for Robert in that moment, but it's safe to assume he did love Robert as like a brother. If Ne did love Robert I think he chose to spare Robert the truth about his sister; that she didn't love him and maybe, that she did Rhaegar whom Robert hated.

"True love" is about mutual respect and accepting someone for who they are - good and bad, not idolizing someone and putting them on a pedestal the way Robert did to Lyanna. In his mind, Lyanna was "stolen" and "raped" by the evil Rhaegar, and Robert was aggrieved and never got a chance to get to know the real woman, a point that Ned tries to make ("You didn't know her as I did...") . In other words, Robert loves the idea of Lyanna and what she represented; something beautiful and precious that was taken from him. If he had married her, he would have found her just as flawed as any other person. For her part, Lyanna had a very clear sense of Robert's character and knew he'd not be faithful to her for long.

Yes. At least twice in his life Ned lied and took upon himself dishonor for something he didn't do, in order to protect the life of someone he loved. He lied to protect Jon, and he falsely confessed to being a traitor to protect Sansa. His personal sense of honor is less important to him than the safety of his family. That makes him even more honorable, in my opinion.

Benjen joined the Nights Watch. Joer Mormont. Aemon Targaryen. Waymar Royce. All honorable men who chose service either after they had done other things with their lives (Mormont, Aemon) or because they were third sons (Benjen and Royce) who didn't have the greatest prospect to inherit. For thousands of years Starks have been manning the Wall, long before it became a dumping ground for the criminals and political prisoners of Westeros. Jon was not forced to join the Nights Watch. It was something he had thought about doing one day for himself. I suppose you could argue that he was too young to make that decision, but really - like Benjen, he wasn't going to inherit. With Ned gone, both Jon and Ned could see the writing on the wall (no pun intended). If Jon had flatly refused to serve, I'm sure Ned would have found him a place with one of his bannerman somewhere, but he didn't have to because it wasn't only his decision - it was also Jon's choice.

In the Ned-Robert encounter, i am not talking of revelations. In GOT is explicitly said in that chapter (sorry for the lack of quotation) that Ned felt love for Robert for he still remenbering Lyanna. Do you think that is normal to fell love for your best friend, if you realize that the poor bastard still mourns and suffers for a girl (even your sister) that never loved him?? Ned should felt sadness and preocupation, not simple love.

Yes, i should not have used the "true love" words.

Ned do not lie to protect Jon, you and others say he did. And in the matter of Sansa, he dishonor himself to protect his sons and wife, because he would take the black but Robb would still be Lord Stark and his daughters would stay alive. In the matter of Jon, he has chosen for him and Cat. In the matter of treason, he has chosen only for him. Would Ned still lie if he had to say that he AND Sansa or any other northmen were traitors?

We do not know why Benjen took the black, but for Jeor and Aemon there were reasons that are not comparable to those of Jon. Jeor lived and only went to the wall in his final years, Aemon went because of his family. Jon went because he knew that after Ned went away, that there was no place for him at Winterfell. He took the black because there was a Stark in the Wall and thought that was honorable to serve in the NW. It was a lesser evil, nothing more.