[ADWD Spoilers]Jon's parentage

[ARYa_Nym]

Bloodraven might know. Since he's been watching the Starks for so long. & he's a Targ so that would be of interest to him.

I've also wondered if Ned told Benjen. He might not have been able to trust Cat with the truth but that might not have applied to him. I don't know how close they were either. He might not have believed the cover story.

[Dilshan Muthalib]

re reading GOT, Eddard POV found something interesting. This in no way clarifies that Jon is son of R and L but what I think this clearly states is that Lyanna was never kidnapped and tortured or rapped by Rhaegar. Robert and Ned are out riding on the morning they learnt about deneries wedding Khal Drogo and this is the interesting part

"what did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragons's honor!".

"you avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting besinde the king, Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

so this indicates that Ned wants to tell Robert that if he was to ask Lyanna about the honour of targs the answer she will give is completely different to what Robert wants to hear or belives but because of the promise he made to Lyanna he can not tell Robert the truth and must let him carry on believing that Targs are barbaric and kidnapped and rapped Lyanna. not sure if this point has been brought up before, but thought will highlight it. He has carried a secret for 14 years and if she was not rapped and tortured why was she bleeding, she was well protected and there is no indication that she might have been trying to take her own life.

When he got her child ned's first instinct was to take her to Ashra and plead her to bring up the child but when he got there she was already dead and he then hired a wet nurse and took the child with him north. he would have known that child had more Strak look about it then targ from hair and eye so he would have thought that the likely hood of some one suspecting it to be a targ child is very very remote indeed

[winterqueen]

Bloodraven might know. Since he's been watching the Starks for so long. & he's a Targ so that would be of interest to him.

I've also wondered if Ned told Benjen. He might not have been able to trust Cat with the truth but that might not have applied to him. I don't know how close they were either. He might not have believed the cover story.

I totally think Benjen Stark knows (or has a very good idea) who Jon's mother is. I don't have the books in front of me, but I recall a Catelyn chapter where she was upset that Baby Jon Snow and his wetnurse arrived at Winterfell before her and baby Robb. Benjen was the "Stark at Winterfell" so he would have been one the first people to see baby Jon and talk to Ned and (possibly) Howland Reed when they returned from the South. I don't know for sure if Ned arrived back to Winterfell with Catelyn and Robb or with Jon Snow. The reason I threw Howland Reed in the mix is because if Ned went to Riverrun to pick up Catelyn and Robb, it makes sense that he would trust Howland Reed to escort his son or nephew, Jon Snow, back to Winterfell.

Also, keep in mind that Lyanna and Benjen grew up together at Winterfell. As far as we know, their father didn't send them off to be fostered elsewhere as he did with Ned. Since Lyanna was such a tomboy, I'm sure she and Ben were partners in crime all the time. Benjen could very well know Lyanna's feelings towards both Prince Rhaegar and Robert.

Lord Bloodraven totally knows if Jon Snow is part Targ. What doesn't he know?

[Tormund the Hornblower]

ok i know its off topic but hasnt any one noticed the parrells between Jon and Bloodraven

-BASTARADS (POSSIBILLY BOTH TARGARYEN IF R+L=J)

-WARG/SKINCHANGER

-LORD COMMANDER OF THE NIGHTS WATCH

-BROTHERS TO KINGS

-JON'S WOLF GHOST IS AN ALBINO AS IS BLOODRAVEN

-BOTH KEEP THE OLD GODS

-BOTH CARRYING VALARYIAN STEEL DARK SISTER AND LONGCLAW

-NOT AS TALL OR MUSCULAR AS HALF-BROTHER(S)(EXPLAINED IN BEG. OF AGOT)

there might be a couple more parrells but i just cant think of them.

Anyway i started a topic on it but hasnt been approved and i wanted to kno what ppl thought about it.

Now being on topic i think has to do a lot with Jon's Parents in that it somewhat evidence that he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard.

[MtnLion]

As I recall Catelyn's trip to Winterfell, with baby Robb, it was after the war was over. She talks about the boat ride with the child, and coming to Winterfell to see Ned had returned already, with Jon Snow. No refs, atm, other than GoT, Catelyn.

[Tormund the Hornblower]

I thought that Rhaegar thought that Aegon was The Prince That Was Promised who's song was The Song of Ice and Fire? That doesn't necessarily mean that Aegon is the The Song of Ice and Fire.

We've been told of three great heroes, right? TPWP, Azor Ahai, and the 'Last Hero'. If these three great heroes are not all the same person then we could (arguably) map them as follows:

Aegon - TPWP

Dany - Azor Ahai

Jon - Last Hero

That would give us 'three heads to the dragon' (which could be a different thing who rides a dragon).

My thoughts on the three heros and three dragon riders are:

Dany- TPWP as Aemon believes

Jon- AZOR Ahai

Bran- Last Hero (the winged wolf bound in chains; bloodraven who is a targaryen bastard is gna teach him to "fly" and he will warg intp one of the dragons.)

*all the dragon riders dont have to be targs

I think these three prophecies of heros are all the same and three characters will make up for it and will be the three heads of the dragon

I dont think Aegon will be one and not because he could be a fake which i dont think so, the mummer's dragon to me means vary's(mummerer) plan to to rescue baby aegon to one day put him on the throne and also that Aegon and Connigton you used false names to conceal their idenities. I dont think GRRm will be bring back Aegon just for him to be a fake. But then again you really never know with him and this book which is what makes it so great.

*the

[Ser Waleed Malik]

It seems to me that the whole Ashara stillborn thing is just another rumor. How many times have POV characters been wrong? too many things occured during that time and no one knows what really happend

[Jason Keyes]

On the issue of Jon's parentage, ADWD gives us three pieces of information. #1: Ned Stark got a fisherman's daughter from the Vale pregnant as she took him across the Bite, and she's Jon Snow's mother. Almost certainly a red herring or foiler, possibly spread about by Ned (?) to fuzzy the Jon's parentage issue further, and maybe deflect attention away from Ashara and Wylla in Dorne.

IMO, Wylla is the "fisherman's daughter," and the belief that Eddard got the "fisherman's daughter" pregnant is tied to the story that Jon is his bastard by Wylla. We don't know Wylla's story other than she was supposedly Eddard's paramour, Jon's mother, and she lived in Starfall after the war. So there's no reason to not think she's the "fisherman's daughter" of ADWD.

#2: Elia could not give birth to a third child. A favourite theory of mine going back many years, and it was great to have it confirmed. Basically, Elia was so ill after giving birth to Aegon that it was said she would die if she tried to have a third child. So if Rhaegar wanted to fulfil the PWWP prophecy and have a third child (tying in to the House of the Undying), he needed to find a second mother/wife to give him that child, which obviously has implications for Lyanna.

Yes. ADWD confirmed that, imo. Rhaegar's motives for fathering a child on someone other than Elia seem quite cemented.

#3: Ashara had a child who was a daughter. For the Ashara-as-Jon's-mother-by-Ned-camp, this complicates things. Ashara had a baby, but it was a daughter who was still born. She was so upset she killed herself, something Barristan seems to blame on Eddard. So this seems to be a blow to the things-are-actually-as-they-appear camp. Since we can assume that the Wylla-was-Jon's-mother thing was a cover story to spare Ashara's reputation, this seems to be adding a fair bit of momentum to the R+L=J theory. Okay, not vast reams of fresh data, but nevertheless intriguing. I discount Bran's vision of Ned praying for his two sons to accept one another as being of value, since that could reinforce almost any interpretation of events.

Here's where I think some of Eddard's thoughts give us clues as to what happened in those months before the abduction of Lyanna and the Rebellion. Eddard does have an affair with Ashara, and he is the father of her stillborn daughter. That's perhaps the "shame" he's lived with. His "lies" that plague him in AGOT aren't just that Jon is actually Rhaegar's and Lyanna's. After all, being an honourable man wouldn't necessitate assuming a dishonour that would save an infant's life (especially when that infant is family). He willingly took on that lie because it was the honourable course, not just because his sister urged him to do so. However, it's rendered plausible by his rumoured (well-known?) affair with Ashara, an affair undertaken in good faith by both because they consider it probable they can swing a marriage between their Houses. Brandon, after all, seems to think he and Barbrey will get married (later disabused by Lord Rickard). People are people: just because arranged marriage is the rule of the day doesn't mean they aren't going to have sex. So Ashara gets pregnant, but it's not possible for Eddard to marry her anymore (he's married to Catelyn, fulfilling his duty, the deal between Lords Rickard and Hoster and join Stark and Tully), and bringing the Riverland to the side of the rebels. Ashara's daugher is stillborn, and Eddard finds himself peddling two distasteful tales in order to meet his promise to his sister: that Jon is his and Ashara's, and that Jon is his and Wylla's. In both instances, he's dishonouring the reputation of the women to a considerable degree. He's also putting a stain (however fake) on his own honour by bruiting the affair with Ashara.

The Ashara tale is believable to certain audiences in Westeros, especially those with some knowledge of the events at Harrenhall and an interest in the Stark household such as Stark servants. Wylla is believable to other audiences, and by refusing to publicly acknowledge either rumour Eddard is able to make both believable.

All that does make me wonder who was advising Eddard on all this, as he doesn't seem to have the personality to plan something like that out. Not Varys, surely, since we don't get an inkling anywhere that Varys has any idea about Jon beyond what's common knowledge in Westeros (he's Eddard's bastard). Perhaps Howland Reed?

[Daenerys Faithful Servant]

I don't really get into the matter of Jon's parents as I don't think he is AA, or the Promised Prince, and the Wall just isn't that interesting of a place to me. However, Howland Reed is a man I would like to know more about. Reed had survived a situation that has reportedly killed everyone else connected to it, not even those just those directly involved, and apparently tells tales that Ashara and Eddard had a thing with leading up to the war. The fact that Reed seems to be the one that was entrusted by the young Starks to keep things that Robert, Jon Arryn and Cat couldn't know so he repays that trust by doing the equivalent of "dude, I am telling you Ned totally tapped that Dornish chick before the wife got her claws into him" is out of place with how his children act.

However, on the matter of Jon being part Dragon, which does annoy me to a certain extent, I think Ned's reactions in AGOT tell us something isn't right with the bastard situation. For starts there is no true respect given to Jon as a Stark and I don't think that is entirely for Cat's benefit. Then when Robert tells him he wants to murder every last Targaryen (don't have the exact quote in front of me) Ned does his best to steer him away from that thought, preferring a sort of live and let live situation. When the Small Council starts putting gold out there for anyone that will kill the children of the dragon he quits and starts readying his family to get out of King's Landing very quickly. I always figured he was just having sort of a fit if he believed Robert would harm Arya ad Sansa over him needing a new Hand, but the Wall is a hell of a lot closer to Winterfell and that fear might not be so misplaced if someone suggested to Robert that Ned had raised the living proof that Lyanna liked Dragons better than Stags. Though, in that situation, the messenger would have to be in search of the "gift" because Robert would likely smash their head in with a wine goblet.

[Fat Walda's Paramour]

ok i know its off topic but hasnt any one noticed the parrells between Jon and Bloodraven

-BASTARADS (POSSIBILLY BOTH TARGARYEN IF R+L=J)

-WARG/SKINCHANGER

-LORD COMMANDER OF THE NIGHTS WATCH

-BROTHERS TO KINGS

-JON'S WOLF GHOST IS AN ALBINO AS IS BLOODRAVEN

-BOTH KEEP THE OLD GODS

-BOTH CARRYING VALARYIAN STEEL DARK SISTER AND LONGCLAW

-NOT AS TALL OR MUSCULAR AS HALF-BROTHER(S)(EXPLAINED IN BEG. OF AGOT)

there might be a couple more parrells but i just cant think of them.

Both have the blood of The First Men and Valyria, only two people ever known to. (If r+l=j)

[dreamcatcher]

I've also wondered if Ned told Benjen. He might not have been able to trust Cat with the truth but that might not have applied to him. I don't know how close they were either. He might not have believed the cover story.

There's something about Benjen that we don't know yet - why did he join the NW?

I also think that Ned DID tell Benjen.

[LordBloodraven]

Now the main reason for the "R+L=J" theory is that Ned is too honorable to cheat on Catelyn, Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love at Harrenhal, and that Lyanna was found by Ned in a bed of blood (which hints at childbirth). But I feel that Jon can't be a Targ bastard. He has no Targ features on him. Even Bittersteel, who had black hair, had purple eyes like the rest of the Targs. Jon is pure north, and I think that he is Ned's son. Both were know for being the quiet, sulky son who was not ever meant to have all the power that they ended up having. Alys Karstark told Jon that he was always sulky and quiet. Jon probably became this sulky kid after the time he and Robb were practicing there swordsmanship and Robb told him that he could never be the Lord of Winterfell (More things that make me hate Cat). That was when he learned that he was a bastard. Ned was always just a quiet kid who was polite but never wanted to have fun. As to the ID of Jon's mother, well I doubt that it is Wylla. Wylla was just Jon and Edric's wet nurse. Ashara is a possibility. Ned is probably the one who "dishonored" her, either by refusing to marry her, or some other "offense" that stemmed from his honor and his moody personality. Ned might have always carried a torch for her, but his rejection led to her suicide. Again, this is just speculation. I honestly don't think that the identity of his mother matters at all to his development as a character.

Baelor Breakspear, the son and heir of Daeron II had brown hair (I don't remember the descrption of his eyes, but I don't think they were purple) and favored his mother's family (the Martells) in his appearance. The same thing happened with Rhaegar's daughter, Rhaenys, who looked more like her mother. Jon being Starkish in his appearance isn't a reason to say that he doesn't have Targ blood....

[Jason Keyes]

There's something about Benjen that we don't know yet - why did he join the NW?

I also think that Ned DID tell Benjen.

I've never thought there was more to Benjen's joining the Watch than he wanted to join the Watch. The Starks have long been "friends o' the watch" and held their service in high regard. Benjen's not just the younger son: he's the third son. As such, his prospects are largely limited to Brandon's largesse or seeking service elsewhere (like Brynden Tully, though the circumstances there are different). In the Watch, he's his own man.

I also think it's probable Eddard confided in Benjen. Perhaps I've read too much into his comment to Jon that it's a "pity" Jon isn't Benjen's son, but I've read that as implying knowledge of Jon's parentage.

[Tagganaro]

My problem with people knowing Jon's parentage (including Ned actually) is it makes me wonder why he was allowed to take the Black without prior knowledge of his parentage.

As we know, it's a pretty serious life-long vow to the Watch to not hold land and stuff. If Ned and Benjen know that Jon is the crown prince's son, don't they think that's relevant information to give to Jon before he makes such a vow?

It's possible that Jon has a completely legitimate claim to the throne if he's truly Rhaegar's son (which seems very likely). Isn't it kind of dickish of Ned and Benjen to keep this information from jon before he makes this crazy life-long vow to never hold land?

[LordBloodraven]

My problem with people knowing Jon's parentage (including Ned actually) is it makes me wonder why he was allowed to take the Black without prior knowledge of his parentage.

As we know, it's a pretty serious life-long vow to the Watch to not hold land and stuff. If Ned and Benjen know that Jon is the crown prince's son, don't they think that's relevant information to give to Jon before he makes such a vow?

It's possible that Jon has a completely legitimate claim to the throne if he's truly Rhaegar's son (which seems very likely). Isn't it kind of dickish of Ned and Benjen to keep this information from jon before he makes this crazy life-long vow to never hold land?

I'm inclined to think that the NW was the solution that convened them all. Jon joining the NW, means that he cannot claim his Targ descent to rebel against Robert for example. Ned promised Jon during their last talk, that he would tell him the truth about his mother, when they will meet again. The meeting would have occurred after Jon took his vows and so if R+L=J, he couldn't think about rebelling against the Baratheons. Ned being friend with the Baratheons, and intending to marry his daughter to the crown prince, Joffrey at that time, it may be possible that Jon going to the NW was set up by him and Benjen. I agree, it would be dickish, but the best way for them not to create a rebellion, or Jon being targeted by Robert.

[Dragonfish]

My problem with people knowing Jon's parentage (including Ned actually) is it makes me wonder why he was allowed to take the Black without prior knowledge of his parentage.

As we know, it's a pretty serious life-long vow to the Watch to not hold land and stuff. If Ned and Benjen know that Jon is the crown prince's son, don't they think that's relevant information to give to Jon before he makes such a vow?

It's possible that Jon has a completely legitimate claim to the throne if he's truly Rhaegar's son (which seems very likely). Isn't it kind of dickish of Ned and Benjen to keep this information from jon before he makes this crazy life-long vow to never hold land?

Why would Ned want Jon to know he has a claim to the throne? He beats himself up enough just harboring a potential claimant, why would he then encourage open rebellion against Robert (which is basically what he'd be doing if he gave Jon a choice in the matter)?

Ned promised Jon during their last talk, that he would tell him the truth about his mother, when they will meet again.

That only happened in the show, not the book.

[MtnLion]

But Barristan doesn't think badly of Eddard. Wouldn't he think poorly of the Stark who dishonored Ashara? That's the word he uses. He's stupid honorable indeed .... so it follows that there's nothing worse than dishonor, yes?

Nope. I'm quite sure it's Brandon. Does it complicate matters and "confuse" them? Sure it does. People are complex and confusing creatures, though, as George has shown us time and time again.

ETA:

This speculation of mine has put this exchange in AGoT in a whole new light for me:

Brandon? He was a douche.

To make a point here, the man who dishonored Ashara is not identified by Barristan, in any way. We do know that post events at Harrenhal, Ashara looked to a Stark (for help) and it is implied by Barristan that she was turned away. It makes sense to me that the Stark was Eddard, when he arrived at Starfall, married, and carrying a child, sword, and a lot of grief.

If one wants to select a culprit for the dishonor, I would offer Oberyn. Oberyn is fiery, fathers children outside wedlock, and danced with Ashara. That fits with Barristan's observation about young girls selecting fiery mates.

I do not lend a lot of credance to Lady Barbrey's story, because it seems just that; a story to cover her real motives for being in the crypt. She offers a lot of hate dialog about Ned, but gives his statue a lingering (not hostile) look, before announcing that they were done there.

[Tagganaro]

Why would Ned want Jon to know he has a claim to the throne? He beats himself up enough just harboring a potential claimant, why would he then encourage open rebellion against Robert (which is basically what he'd be doing if he gave Jon a choice in the matter)?

That only happened in the show, not the book.

Yeah, I guess you're right. It's still just a pretty concrete and permanent move to have Jon take the NW oath because he doesn't think he has a place anywhere. But you're right...Ned's too loyal to Robert and his sister to put Jon in a situation where Robert would want to have him killed or whatnot.

That being said...It's still dickish to not let Jon know the truth and have all the information before making a life-changing vow to never hold land or be married. The reason Jon makes the decision to go to the NW is because he has no place in the world.

[Jesstadreamer]

Reading this thread and thinking it over, there are certain themes apparent and stressed over and over in each book. SOS was definitely all about marriages, and DWD mentions identity and births and heirs quite a bit.

There are numerous references to Rhaegar's children wrapped in the crimson cloaks, the revelation of Aegon (possibly if it wasn't a switch) being alive and "reborn", Jon Connington being alive, Victarion's arm being "reborn", Daeny's transformation and bond to her dragon, Theon remembering his real name, Arya's eyes returning and becoming a faceless man (possibly), even the prologue where Varamyr dies and then wargs, Cersei's "redemption" and unGregor (if that's who it is), Tyrion gets a number of new names and weird experiences such as play-jousting, Jorah is almost unrecognizable, Melisandre remembering her "Lot", Jon changes the whole NW and his attitude, Mance and Rattleshirt, who is Lemore?, the Brazen Beasts and their masks, and probably a few more I'm missing or just not remembering at the moment.

(Mostly speculation, but knowing that GRRM had some DWD written and from the Sam chapter in FFC, we could say that Sarella and Alleras the Sphinx could fit into this identity theme)

I'm super sold on R+L= J for many reasons, but a quote I saw in this thread cemented that idea even more- how in GoT Ned says some secrets are too dangerous to share with family (I think the quote was on page 6, but I'm not sure). Then when Jaime negotiates with the Brackens and Raventrees he thinks "It was his child he feared for.(p.639)" which reminded me how Jaime's own children would have been dead like Rhaegar's children if Bran had told anyone about what he saw in the tower at Winterfell. Then, that would link to why Ned would take the shame of a bastard child to protect his own family and never say a word.

Last, couldn't the boys growing up as brothers reference have meant Theon and Robb? ...not Jon and Robb? Even if that isn't meant, and Ned does refer to Jon, Jon would not be Robb's brother.

[Dragonfish]

Last, couldn't the boys growing up as brothers reference have meant Theon and Robb? ...not Jon and Robb?

I don't think so, because Ned goes on to ask for Catelyn's forgiveness. Why would he need her forgiveness for taking Theon as a ward?

Also, I seem to recall that Ned always kept his distance from Theon, because one day he might have to execute him (if his father rose in Rebellion, or if Theon rose in Rebellion with his father and was captured). Based on this, I'm not sure why he'd wish for Theon to be like a brother to his children. It would actually be sort of cruel, I think, to wish for your children to grow close to this boy, knowing that one day you might have to kill him. So I really don't think Ned was referring to Theon in that scene.