[ADWD Spoilers]Jon's parentage

[Geddus]

But were only ever Starks and Stark servents with Lyanna and Robert? No other Baratheons and/or Arryns?

I suppose Lyanna had Stark servants with her, and Robert had Baratheon ones (or Arryn, when he was at the Vale). What does it matter? It's not like they lived together.

In the matter of the quotation, i really don't recall its context and so i don't feel able to discute that. If you could elucidate me on that, i thank you.

Those are Ned's thoughts while he's a prisoner in the Red Keep. He thinks about what Jaime and Cersei are doing for their children and wonders what he would do if it was his own children's (Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon... no mention of Jon, I wonder why) lives at stake against some child he didn't know, and also wonders what Catelyn would do if it was her children against Jon.

But for Ned taking and protecting Jon, there is no need for effectively raising him in Winterfell.

There is, if Jon is Lyanna's son and Ned promised her he would take care of him like he was his. We know that Ned made some promise to his sister that cost and is still costing him greatly, I think that would be a very reasonable explaination.

And Jorah, Barristan and Connigton appear to think good of Rhaegar, despite the rape, which is the believed story of Rhaegar-Lyanna and neither of them indicated to think otherwise.

Actually, Barristan thinks that Rhaegar's love for Lyanna brought grief to the realm, that doesn't scream "rape" to me. Connington was Rhaegar's best friend, he probably knows what happened and if it was rape or not (I doubt it was, by the way). Jorah doesn't probably know anything, he just dislikes Ned because... well, Jorah is an ass.

That is a good reasoning, but we were also said by Cat that Jon was the most similar to Ned in physical aspect. And also, Jon was the image of Ned in mental aspects, which Lyanna apparently was not. It is not a lot farfetched that Jon is the reencarnation of his uncle, when his fathers appear to have little in common with Ned?

Jon also looks like Arya, who we know is basically the image of Lyanna (Bran sees young Lyanna playing with Benjen and thinks she's Arya, so the resemblance must be striking). If Ned's daughter looks like Lyanna, I don't see Lyanna's son can't look like Ned.

As for the mental resemblance, I would hope so, Jon was raised by Ned, of course he thinks like him.

House Dayne was Targ-Loyal. All of Starfall residents were also Targ-loyal, to no rumor escape from there?

Why would Targaryen loyalists put Rhaegar's son in mortal danger? If anyting, they would be in on the cover-up.

They would have if they were ordered to keep Lyanna there against her will. And the matter that Viserys was alone is a no-question because the three KGs already "went rogue" by that time. We know that the KGs only are supposed to answer to the King and protect him, and also his family and loved ones IF the king says so. However, we know that during the Rebellion that these three KGs were not with the king, and were not following the KIng's orders. They were following the orders of Rhaegar who was never King. If they already were following the orders of someone that they ultimatly were not oblige to, why are we suppose to expect that they were still following the normal KGs vows?

They didn't go rogue, they were protecting Rhaegar who was the heir to the throne. When Rhaegar went back to KL, where the 4 other KG plus the entire royal army were, they stayed to the ToJ to protect his heir (if we suppose R+L=J is true).

After Rhaegar, Aerys, "Aegon" and Rhaenys died, the three KG didn't go to Viserys, who Ned thought was the heir, not because they were ordered not to (by who, anyway? Everyone was dead) but because "they swore a vow". What did they swear? To protect the King. So basically they say that they are protecting the ToJ because they're protecting the king.

If Wylla was in the whole thing, how did she stay with the Daynes?! If she was only a servant, that Ned did not have any means to confirm her loyalty, how did he let her stay in Starfall?

If she was Jon's wetnrse it means that she was at the ToJ with Lyanna, which in turn means that Rhaegar trusted her, so her loyalty wouldn't have been in discussion.

It could be a problem if someone knowing the identity of Jon mother could hurt someone. And if the mother was Lyanna why was Ned so keen to squash rumors about Ashara, if they were a perfect way to further hid the truth about Jon??

Because he was saying that the mother was Wylla?

I think that Ned did not have any plans for Jon because joining the NW is very definitive, Jon was only a boy and Ned did never talk to Jon about alternatives. We know from Jon that Ned never approached him with a plan or some hint about his future, and we were shown by Cat that Ned was clueless to wath to do with Jon besides leaving him in Winterfell.

How is this in any way relevant to Jon's parentage?

I have read the essay, and I still maintain my opinion. The most relevant "piece of evidence" is that Ned regrets and sorrows something regarding Lyanna and his promise to her, and appears to feel some regret and shame regarding Jon. Why the hell Ned felt shame for thinking of Jon, the boy he honorably save from death?? Shame could be normal if he thought of Cat, and the shame of making her feel sad because of Jon without no reason. And the thoughts of Jon can be easily attributed as he (Ned) have regrets in the way as he simply treated Jon, not only if his mother was Lyanna.

He could feel shame if he lied to his wife and also forced her to accept who she thinks is a bastard child of his into her house. He could feel shame because he lied to his best friend, committing treason in the process. He could feel shame because he lied to Jon about his parents and his heritage, making him think he's a bastard.

And for the Lyanna-promise, it indicates only that the promise was important but also do not point to R+L=J.

Of course it does. He equates Sansa pleading for Lady's life to Lyanna, this seems to clearly tell us that Lyanna was pleading for someone's life as well.

[Luist311]

I have never said anything at all about Wylla.

As for Ned sending Jon to the Wall- once he is there, he's stuck! Vows are taken for life and there's no way out; even if he somehow learned the truth, what would he be able to do about it?

Robert promised a lordship to anyone who would assassinate Dany and her child; why would he feel differently about Jon, against whom he had a personal grudge?

Ned wished to get rid of Cersei and set aside her children; then Robert was killed and matters escalated beyond his control. I don't think he ever intended a rebellion, he thought Cersei and her children could be set aside to make way for Stannis, he didn't plan to have a full-scale war.

Jon's claim was better because he was a Targaryen, legit or not. Robert based his claim on his Targ blood but it was quite watered-down. As Renly explained, nobody would dispute Robert's right to the throne, because Robert took the throne with his warhammer!

True, but that was only because it seemed OOC for Ned!

As Littlefinger put it, it was considered socially unacceptable to question any man about his bastards. It really was the best cover story at the time.

Sorry, wrong user...:$

How about trying to desert?

I don't understand what that promise of a lorship has to do with what i have said.

Err, this is Westeros. Bastards are and will remain bastards, despite their parents. Jon could have being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but if he was a bastard, he is only a Snow or wathever bastarde name exist in KL. As a bastard Jon has rights to nothing, and I don't understant why people continue to say he does.

Ned was rebelling, and despite he wanted to end that quickly, there was also a chance that matters may escalate. And for the warhammer, what warhammer was Jon suppose to have??

It was socially unacceptable to question someone about his bastards, but it appears to also somewhat socially strange (and for Cat thoughts) unacceptable to raise your bastard as if he was almost legit. Ned having a bastard is strange for the person itself but it is normal in Westeros. Ned having a bastard and raising it at plain sight is both strnage for him and for the other westerosi nobles.

I suppose Lyanna had Stark servants with her, and Robert had Baratheon ones (or Arryn, when he was at the Vale). What does it matter? It's not like they lived together.

Those are Ned's thoughts while he's a prisoner in the Red Keep. He thinks about what Jaime and Cersei are doing for their children and wonders what he would do if it was his own children's (Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon... no mention of Jon, I wonder why) lives at stake against some child he didn't know, and also wonders what Catelyn would do if it was her children against Jon.

There is, if Jon is Lyanna's son and Ned promised her he would take care of him like he was his. We know that Ned made some promise to his sister that cost and is still costing him greatly, I think that would be a very reasonable explaination.

Actually, Barristan thinks that Rhaegar's love for Lyanna brought grief to the realm, that doesn't scream "rape" to me. Connington was Rhaegar's best friend, he probably knows what happened and if it was rape or not (I doubt it was, by the way). Jorah doesn't probably know anything, he just dislikes Ned because... well, Jorah is an ass.

Jon also looks like Arya, who we know is basically the image of Lyanna (Bran sees young Lyanna playing with Benjen and thinks she's Arya, so the resemblance must be striking). If Ned's daughter looks like Lyanna, I don't see Lyanna's son can't look like Ned.

As for the mental resemblance, I would hope so, Jon was raised by Ned, of course he thinks like him.

Why would Targaryen loyalists put Rhaegar's son in mortal danger? If anyting, they would be in on the cover-up.

They didn't go rogue, they were protecting Rhaegar who was the heir to the throne. When Rhaegar went back to KL, where the 4 other KG plus the entire royal army were, they stayed to the ToJ to protect his heir (if we suppose R+L=J is true).

After Rhaegar, Aerys, "Aegon" and Rhaenys died, the three KG didn't go to Viserys, who Ned thought was the heir, not because they were ordered not to (by who, anyway? Everyone was dead) but because "they swore a vow". What did they swear? To protect the King. So basically they say that they are protecting the ToJ because they're protecting the king.

If she was Jon's wetnrse it means that she was at the ToJ with Lyanna, which in turn means that Rhaegar trusted her, so her loyalty wouldn't have been in discussion.

Because he was saying that the mother was Wylla?

How is this in any way relevant to Jon's parentage?

He could feel shame if he lied to his wife and also forced her to accept who she thinks is a bastard child of his into her house. He could feel shame because he lied to his best friend, committing treason in the process. He could feel shame because he lied to Jon about his parents and his heritage, making him think he's a bastard.

Of course it does. He equates Sansa pleading for Lady's life to Lyanna, this seems to clearly tell us that Lyanna was pleading for someone's life as well.

Lyanna and Robert did not live together, nor that was necessary to someone realize that things were not as Robert thought they were.

But why raising Jon cost Ned that much? Why he was always thinking of Lyanna as if he basically failed her. The only problem of Ned raising Jon was the death sentence above his and his family head. However, he never thinks that, he never has so dark thoughts when he thinks of his own family. He only thinks those when he remebers of Lyanna.

The own sons of Ned did not resemble him so much, and were raised also by him and Cat is no Targaryen. Hell, remenber the "fire and blood" of Dany. Where is that in Jon? He is pure Ned Stark.

And the nobles Dayne are Targ-loyal, but i am talking of the smallfolk, of the household of Starfall. The servents. They, ultimalty, do not have any loyalties. They were all so loyal to the Daynes, were all shut up?

But the KGs do not function in that way! They do not swear the protect the royal family and to obey them, they swear to protect the King and obey only him! It is said in the books, that they only protect the remaining royal family IF the KIng says so, and even then they are commanded only by the King. Rhaegar do not have any power over the Kinsguard, they are not swore-bond to his command. If they obeyed to Rhaegar, and kept the King in the "dark", was not because of they vows, were because of their free will. And if they have distorted their vows so much as to obey to other people than the King, and keeping that in secret of the King, their presence there must not be analyzed by the normal KGs functions.

How Ned had known that Wylla was chosen by Rhaegar? How would he known that the judgment of Rhaegar was so good, as to risk his family over it?

He only said to Robert that the women that he was thinking about was Wylla.

Because if Jon identity could be the downfall of Stark is a bit strange that Ned never thought what he would do with him.

He only felt shame by thinking of Jon, and that he wanted to talk to him. He never thought of Cat and Robert, and how he would want also to talk to they and reveal the truth. That shame is related to Jon and Jon alone.

Ned only compare the despair of pleading, he had not said that she pleaded for someone. And even so, are you saying that Lyanna had to plead to Ned to take her children so despairingly???

[ARYa_Nym]

I just realized that in ACoK:

Aemon knew...that if he remained at court those who disliked his brother's rule would seek to use him so he came to Wall. And here he has remained, while his brother and his brother's son and his son each reigned and died in turn, until Jaime Lannister put an end to the line of the Dragonkings."King," croaked the raven..."King," it said again..."He likes that word, " Jon said, smiling..."King," the bird said again. "I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord." "The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow. It made him feel odd.

This most likely was Bloodraven trying to communicate with Jon. I just think it's interesting that it's right after Mormont said that the line of the Dragonkings has ended.

[Blizzard]

I just realized that in ACoK:

This most likely was Bloodraven trying to communicate with Jon. I just think it's interesting that it's right after Mormont said that the line of the Dragonkings has ended.

I just looked back and was like WOW. That is probably a clue left by Geroge

[Sasha Steelsong]

Sorry, wrong user...:$

How about trying to desert?

I don't understand what that promise of a lorship has to do with what i have said.

Err, this is Westeros. Bastards are and will remain bastards, despite their parents. Jon could have being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but if he was a bastard, he is only a Snow or wathever bastarde name exist in KL. As a bastard Jon has rights to nothing, and I don't understant why people continue to say he does.

Ned was rebelling, and despite he wanted to end that quickly, there was also a chance that matters may escalate. And for the warhammer, what warhammer was Jon suppose to have??

It was socially unacceptable to question someone about his bastards, but it appears to also somewhat socially strange (and for Cat thoughts) unacceptable to raise your bastard as if he was almost legit. Ned having a bastard is strange for the person itself but it is normal in Westeros. Ned having a bastard and raising it at plain sight is both strnage for him and for the other westerosi nobles.

Lyanna and Robert did not live together, nor that was necessary to someone realize that things were not as Robert thought they were.

But why raising Jon cost Ned that much? Why he was always thinking of Lyanna as if he basically failed her. The only problem of Ned raising Jon was the death sentence above his and his family head. However, he never thinks that, he never has so dark thoughts when he thinks of his own family. He only thinks those when he remebers of Lyanna.

The own sons of Ned did not resemble him so much, and were raised also by him and Cat is no Targaryen. Hell, remenber the "fire and blood" of Dany. Where is that in Jon? He is pure Ned Stark.

And the nobles Dayne are Targ-loyal, but i am talking of the smallfolk, of the household of Starfall. The servents. They, ultimalty, do not have any loyalties. They were all so loyal to the Daynes, were all shut up?

But the KGs do not function in that way! They do not swear the protect the royal family and to obey them, they swear to protect the King and obey only him! It is said in the books, that they only protect the remaining royal family IF the KIng says so, and even then they are commanded only by the King. Rhaegar do not have any power over the Kinsguard, they are not swore-bond to his command. If they obeyed to Rhaegar, and kept the King in the "dark", was not because of they vows, were because of their free will. And if they have distorted their vows so much as to obey to other people than the King, and keeping that in secret of the King, their presence there must not be analyzed by the normal KGs functions.

How Ned had known that Wylla was chosen by Rhaegar? How would he known that the judgment of Rhaegar was so good, as to risk his family over it?

He only said to Robert that the women that he was thinking about was Wylla.

Because if Jon identity could be the downfall of Stark is a bit strange that Ned never thought what he would do with him.

He only felt shame by thinking of Jon, and that he wanted to talk to him. He never thought of Cat and Robert, and how he would want also to talk to they and reveal the truth. That shame is related to Jon and Jon alone.

Ned only compare the despair of pleading, he had not said that she pleaded for someone. And even so, are you saying that Lyanna had to plead to Ned to take her children so despairingly???

Luis...frankly you've asked all of these questions before in like six different ways and gotten answers to all of them (I know since I posted a very long reply yesterday - #394). That you cannot accept the answers you've gotten is your own issue but at this point you are really re-treading ground. Clearly you don't believe that R+L=J, but your reasoning is shoddy at best (Ned's plans or lack there of for Jon IN NO WAY speak to who Jon's biological parents are) and you ignore a lot because it doesn't fit with your belief. As a result I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

[Dragonfish]

Luis,

The quote I posted earlier came from the chapter where Ned finally confronts Cersei about her children.

Err, this is Westeros. Bastards are and will remain bastards, despite their parents. Jon could have being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but if he was a bastard, he is only a Snow or wathever bastarde name exist in KL. As a bastard Jon has rights to nothing, and I don't understant why people continue to say he does.

Some people believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have been married (using the polygamy precedent as a pretext), and therefore Jon would have been Rhaegar's legal heir.

It was socially unacceptable to question someone about his bastards, but it appears to also somewhat socially strange (and for Cat thoughts) unacceptable to raise your bastard as if he was almost legit. Ned having a bastard is strange for the person itself but it is normal in Westeros. Ned having a bastard and raising it at plain sight is both strnage for him and for the other westerosi nobles.

Again, this can all be explained by Ned's promise to Lyanna. If he promised to raise him, then Ned would feel duty-bound to do it himself, and not hand him off to some bannerman.

He only felt shame by thinking of Jon, and that he wanted to talk to him. He never thought of Cat and Robert, and how he would want also to talk to they and reveal the truth. That shame is related to Jon and Jon alone.

Ned may simply feel shame when he thinks about Jon because all the treason and lying and dishonoring of his wife revolve around Jon's existence. The whole reason that R+L=J is compelling, in my view, is that taking care of Jon is a burden for Ned, but one he takes on anyway out of love for his sister (and of Jon, of course).

The own sons of Ned did not resemble him so much, and were raised also by him and Cat is no Targaryen. Hell, remenber the "fire and blood" of Dany. Where is that in Jon? He is pure Ned Stark.

But what is it that Jon and Ned share, as far as appearances go? A long face, gray eyes, and dark hair. Arya has those same features, and she's almost the spitting image of Lyanna, so Lyanna probably had those features as well. From this we can conclude that Jon looks like Ned because they both share features which Ned and Lyanna also shared.

But the KGs do not function in that way! They do not swear the protect the royal family and to obey them, they swear to protect the King and obey only him!

Which is exactly why they ought to be guarding Viserys, and not Rhaegar's mistress. And you can't say that the Kingsguard were "going rogue", because they explicitly reference their oath when explaining why they are there. It's very difficult to explain their actions if they were only guarding Lyanna, it's much easier to explain them if they were guarding Rhaegar's heir.

How Ned had known that Wylla was chosen by Rhaegar? How would he known that the judgment of Rhaegar was so good, as to risk his family over it?

Well, if Wylla was already at the ToJ, then Ned had no choice but to trust her. It was either that or kill her.

He only said to Robert that the women that he was thinking about was Wylla.

The fact that Robert thinks Wylla is the mother means that Ned must have told him so years ago. And then of course there's the fact that Edric Dayne thinks Wylla is the mother as well. So if you want to go by explicit references, Wylla must be the mother.

Ned only compare the despair of pleading, he had not said that she pleaded for someone. And even so, are you saying that Lyanna had to plead to Ned to take her children so despairingly???

If you don't think the promise concerned Jon, what do you think Lyanna made him promise?

Also, Ned thinks to himself in one of his early chapters that he's been living lies for fourteen years, which also happens to be Jon's age. Living a lie means presenting something about yourself to the world that isn't true. If this lie that he's living isn't related to Jon, then what is it?

[Laird of Boulton]

If R+L=J is true, Ned didn't run any risk whatsoever as long as he was the only one who knew the truth (well, he and most probably Howland Reed, who Ned seemed to trust unconditionally). That's why he never told anything to Catelyn: the best way to keep a secret is not telling anyone.

I'd guess Benjen Stark also knew. Or at least GRRM thought so when writing the first book. First Ranger has been absent for four books now, just like the Lord of Greywater Watch aka the Man Who Knows Too Much...

[Luist311]

Luis,

The quote I posted earlier came from the chapter where Ned finally confronts Cersei about her children.

Some people believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have been married (using the polygamy precedent as a pretext), and therefore Jon would have been Rhaegar's legal heir.

Again, this can all be explained by Ned's promise to Lyanna. If he promised to raise him, then Ned would feel duty-bound to do it himself, and not hand him off to some bannerman.

Ned may simply feel shame when he thinks about Jon because all the treason and lying and dishonoring of his wife revolve around Jon's existence. The whole reason that R+L=J is compelling, in my view, is that taking care of Jon is a burden for Ned, but one he takes on anyway out of love for his sister (and of Jon, of course).

But what is it that Jon and Ned share, as far as appearances go? A long face, gray eyes, and dark hair. Arya has those same features, and she's almost the spitting image of Lyanna, so Lyanna probably had those features as well. From this we can conclude that Jon looks like Ned because they both share features which Ned and Lyanna also shared.

Which is exactly why they ought to be guarding Viserys, and not Rhaegar's mistress. And you can't say that the Kingsguard were "going rogue", because they explicitly reference their oath when explaining why they are there. It's very difficult to explain their actions if they were only guarding Lyanna, it's much easier to explain them if they were guarding Rhaegar's heir.

Well, if Wylla was already at the ToJ, then Ned had no choice but to trust her. It was either that or kill her.

The fact that Robert thinks Wylla is the mother means that Ned must have told him so years ago. And then of course there's the fact that Edric Dayne thinks Wylla is the mother as well. So if you want to go by explicit references, Wylla must be the mother.

If you don't think the promise concerned Jon, what do you think Lyanna made him promise?

Also, Ned thinks to himself in one of his early chapters that he's been living lies for fourteen years, which also happens to be Jon's age. Living a lie means presenting something about yourself to the world that isn't true. If this lie that he's living isn't related to Jon, then what is it?

In what religion is poligamy acepted? REligion or other institution that legalizes the marriage? I am asking because i do not know what legitimates the marriage in Westeros.

As to the Ned-Jon resemblance, i am talking of mental resemblance as well.

But the KGs referred to an oath, not to the KGs oath directly. And my point is that, in this story, they were never guarding the heir of the KIng. When Rhaegar was the heir, he was alone in the Trident. When Aerys was King he was only with Jaime. When Aegon was heir, he was alone as the only KGs in KL (i think) was with Aerys. The vow of the KGs is to guard and obey the King, but are really intended to believe that they were following their vows in being hidden from the King to guard a unborn child that would only be King after Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon?

Ned could have brought Wylla with him.

I think that Lyanna made Ned promise her something serious and complicated, but i do not believe that was to care for Jon.First, I have said, Ned thoughts about Lyanna was as he had failed her in that promise. Ned did not fail with Jon, so why the regret and sorrow? Further, Ned thoughts implied that she was in panic and that have begged desparingly. Ned take that long to promise to his dying sister to take care of her only son?

[Sasha Steelsong]

In what religion is poligamy acepted? REligion or other institution that legalizes the marriage? I am asking because i do not know what legitimates the marriage in Westeros.

The seven are the ones to sanctify marriage. ETA: In the south, in the North there does not seem to be an official body like the chuch of the seven. The Targaryens were the only family allowed to practice both incest and polygamy though nobody else. The original Aegon married both his sisters, and Baylor the Blessed married them all.

As to the Ned-Jon resemblance, i am talking of mental resemblance as well.

And that can be explained as stated before by two things: 1) If Rhaegar was Jon's father then he could get those quiet brooding qualities from Rhaegar as a child can inherit characteristics from both parents. The descriptions of Rhaegar and Ned's personalities is a lot alike. 2) Regardless of who his biological father is, Ned raised him and he grew up thinking Ned was his father which would have impacted how he developed even if he was the child of two common people.

But the KGs referred to an oath, not to the KGs oath directly. And my point is that, in this story, they were never guarding the heir of the KIng. When Rhaegar was the heir, he was alone in the Trident. When Aerys was King he was only with Jaime. When Aegon was heir, he was alone as the only KGs in KL (i think) was with Aerys. The vow of the KGs is to guard and obey the King, but are really intended to believe that they were following their vows in being hidden from the King to guard a unborn child that would only be King after Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon?

You're splitting hairs by trying to say that they were talking about an oath but not the KG oath. In Ned's dream of the TOJ they were definitely refuring to the KG oath since Ned points out that they should be with the king and they say that they are where they should be (paraphrasing), there is no other oath that the KG take that would make sense here. The KG oath does not require that they all be with the king all the time, so I don't really see why you think it is relevant to Jon's parentage that the KG was split up at that time. Some were with Aerys and the rest in KL, the others were with Rhaegar in the TOJ, it is not that inconceivable that Aerys would split up the guard that way seeing as KL had a lot of troops so having all the KG with him wasn't necessary for his safety. They were only never protecting the heir if you begin with the assumption that Jon wasn't at the TOJ and isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna's. Initially the guards at the TOJ were likely there to watch Rhaegar and then they were left behind for some reason. The point is that when Ned shows up the KG do not think they are violating their oath by being there, a statement that makes NO SENSE if a member of the royal family (and really the king at that point) isn't in residence. By the time Ned shows up Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon are all thought to be dead so yes if Jon was Rhaegar's then the KG's responsibility would have been at the TOJ with him.

Ned could have brought Wylla with him.

He could have but he didn't, and the fact that he didn't is not proof that Jon is his. He clearly trusted Wylla to keep secret about what went on in the TOJ, the requirment is only in your head that the only option would have been to keep Wylla with him for the rest of her life. Plus given that he put her forward as Jon's mother it actually makes sense to keep a continent between her and Jon, as it keeps people from questioning her directly or comparing her to Jon.

I think that Lyanna made Ned promise her something serious and complicated, but i do not believe that was to care for Jon.First, I have said, Ned thoughts about Lyanna was as he had failed her in that promise. Ned did not fail with Jon, so why the regret and sorrow? Further, Ned thoughts implied that she was in panic and that have begged desparingly. Ned take that long to promise to his dying sister to take care of her only son?

What pray tell would Lyanna have been desperate to get a promise from her brother for while she was dying other than protecting her child? It certainly wasn't the reason that was given which is that she wanted to be burried in the North. I think it is perfectly normal for Lyanna to ask given that Robert, Ned's best friend and the new king, killed Rhaegar and his children and Ned was unable to stop it. Lyanna was asking her brother to commit treason and potentially doom his entire family to keep her secret, as Ned would have been the one to pay I can see why Ned took a second and why Lyanna, knowing the kind of man her brother was, would need his assurance since doing what she asked would be completely against Ned's nature. And Ned never said that he failed the promise he made Lyanna. His guilt/pain is over the price he's paid to keep the promise to her, i.e. implying that he kept the promise at great cost to himself.

[Dragonfish]

In what religion is poligamy acepted? REligion or other institution that legalizes the marriage? I am asking because i do not know what legitimates the marriage in Westeros.

Polygamy is not technically accepted by any faith, but an exception has been made for Targs in the past. Aegon the Conqueror is the most well known example. Maegor the Cruel is another one. There may have been other Targs who had multiple wives as well.

As to the Ned-Jon resemblance, i am talking of mental resemblance as well.

Yes, but as others have said, that can be explained by the fact that Ned raised Jon.

But the KGs referred to an oath, not to the KGs oath directly.

No, I'm sorry, that simply cannot be true based on the context of the quote:

"'Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.'

'Ser Willem is a good man and true,' said Ser Oswell.

'But not of the Kingsguard,' Ser Gerold pointed out. 'The Kingsguard does not flee.'

'Then or now,' said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

'We swore a vow,' explained old Ser Gerold."

There are clearly referring to their vows as Kingsguard members. I don't know how you can argue otherwise.

And my point is that, in this story, they were never guarding the heir of the KIng. When Rhaegar was the heir, he was alone in the Trident.

Uh, no he wasn't. He had Ser Barristan and Ser Lewyn and Ser Jonothor with him. That's three out of seven Kingsguard knights.

When Aerys was King he was only with Jaime. When Aegon was heir, he was alone as the only KGs in KL (i think) was with Aerys. The vow of the KGs is to guard and obey the King, but are really intended to believe that they were following their vows in being hidden from the King to guard a unborn child that would only be King after Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon?

While Aerys was still king, the Kingsguard would have followed his orders (or Rhaegar's, if their protection had been extended to him), even if that meant guarding some out of the way tower. There's nothing unusual about that.

What is unusual, however, is if they continued to guard this tower after the king had died, while the supposed new king (Viserys) had been driven to Dragonstone, and was completely without Kingsguard protection. This really does not make sense, in my view. The only way it could make sense is if the Kingsguard knew that the true heir was not in fact on Dragonstone, but in the very tower they were guarding.

I think that Lyanna made Ned promise her something serious and complicated, but i do not believe that was to care for Jon.First, I have said, Ned thoughts about Lyanna was as he had failed her in that promise.

No, Ned thinks about the price he paid to keep the promises he made to Lyanna:

"'I will,' Ned promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."

The only mention of "broken promises" during Ned's POV comes during a fever dream, so it could really mean anything. As someone else pointed out, it could be referring to the fact that Ned let Jon take the black. He could also be thinking about how he was supposed to tell Jon the truth one day, but now likely won't be able to because he's imprisoned and will likely be executed. It could also refer to some other broken promises that he or someone else made. It's not really clear what it refers to. But one thing that is clear is that Ned feels he's been burdened by keeping his promise to Lyanna. If that's not related to Jon, then what does it relate to?

Also, you haven't really answered my other question: what lies has Ned been living for fourteen years?

Further, Ned thoughts implied that she was in panic and that have begged desparingly. Ned take that long to promise to his dying sister to take care of her only son?

Yes. It's a big thing she's asking him to promise, to take care of the child of Rhaegar, and potentially the heir to the Targ dynasty. She's asking him to commit treason, to lie to his best friend, his king, his family, and the realm. That's a tall order for someone like Ned. It makes sense that she'd have to plead in order to get him to commit to that promise. In fact, the very idea that she had to plead to get Ned to promise implies that the promise concerns something she deeply cares about, and the idea that Ned was reluctant to agree to that promise implies that it was a great burden for him. In other words, these facts support R+L=J, they don't contradict it.

[MtnLion]

The strange conversation with the Kingsguard confirms that the baby is the heir to the throne. Ned refers to the crown of winter roses, notably blue roses (artificially colored, they don't appear that way in nature), as the gift that Rhaegar had given his sister, that she loved so much. To him the crown of roses was thorny, and caused him injury (it caused an infringement on his honor to misrepresent the child as a bastard and as his, to keep him safe from Robert's wrath). When Lyanna dies the petals (baby Jon) slip from her hands. Danaerys sees a blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice (confirming that Jon (at the Wall) is the child that Ned took from the Tower of Joy, there have not been any baby exchanges). As for the AA or PtwP, I keep remembering one passage where the sky is tinged red, as rose petals blow across it, and wonder if we will hear about the red comet (bleeding star) passing in that year, too.

[CrypticWeirwood]

In what religion is poligamy acepted? REligion or other institution that legalizes the marriage? I am asking because i do not know what legitimates the marriage in Westeros.

You can say your vows in a godswood, preferably to the weirwood that is the heart tree. The heart tree is all the witness that the First Men ever needed.

[Lady of Long Lake]

In what religion is poligamy acepted? REligion or other institution that legalizes the marriage? I am asking because i do not know what legitimates the marriage in Westeros.

As to the Ned-Jon resemblance, i am talking of mental resemblance as well.

Ned could have brought Wylla with him.

I think that Lyanna made Ned promise her something serious and complicated, but i do not believe that was to care for Jon.First, I have said, Ned thoughts about Lyanna was as he had failed her in that promise. Ned did not fail with Jon, so why the regret and sorrow? Further, Ned thoughts implied that she was in panic and that have begged desparingly. Ned take that long to promise to his dying sister to take care of her only son?

Ned would never be unfaithful. I can't believe Cat even believed his ridiculous lie about Jon. She must not have known him very well. He's the most honorable man in the realm. Ned's regret with Jon is that he never told him the truth about who his parents are. You might not think it's Rhaegar + Lyanna but it surely isn't Ned + Any Other Female On the Face of The Earth=)

[Ghost Rider]

As to the Ned-Jon resemblance, i am talking of mental resemblance as well.

You know I've seen that one brought up multiple times. There might be a certain resemblance between the two, but imho not a very strong one. Jon seems mentally much more flexible then Ned. He's quiet, brooding, yes (just like Rhaegar, been wondering how he'd play the harp ;)), thinking first before acting (I somehow doubt he would have told Cersei about his plans before hand) and then acting decisively.

They both try to do what they think is the right thing, but I'm not entirely sure they'd agree on what would be the right thing in a given situation.

[Black Crow]

The resemblance is not in the least significant insofar as in the first place the R+L=J equation means that Jon is the son of Ned's sister which is sufficient to account for his looking like a Stark (while most of his sibling cousins look like Tullys), and then he has been brought up by Ned and will equally naturally follow him to a very great degree in character - I've just been reading the run-up to the battle in the Whispering Wood in which Cat spends a great deal of time musing on how much Robb is like his father, not in looks but in the way he has been taught by Ned.

[Lord of Ale]

Yeah Jon is going to be a Dragonrider.

Ontop of.

The pet Direwolf.

Magic Sword.

Magic Powers.

Hidden Royal Bastard

Prince who was Promised.

AA Reborn (two distinct prophecies)

King.

Marrying the Princess.

Then he will be King Cliche Mccliche First High Cliche King of Clicheland.

The like of Belgarion, Sparhawk, Rand Al'Thor, Richard Rahl we all bow down in awe.

Also of course a Maegi who came to COURT told the RULING KING a big prophesied Hero would be born of his line. Like Mel told Stannis he was AA reborn...

What the hell? I'm one hundred pages into The Eye of the World. Nice etiquette bro. Spoil as many books as you can, everyone will be so impressed you've read so many. Herb.

[Nightstar]

You know I've seen that one brought up multiple times. There might be a certain resemblance between the two, but imho not a very strong one. Jon seems mentally much more flexible then Ned. He's quiet, brooding, yes (just like Rhaegar, been wondering how he'd play the harp ;)), thinking first before acting (I somehow doubt he would have told Cersei about his plans before hand) and then acting decisively.

They both try to do what they think is the right thing, but I'm not entirely sure they'd agree on what would be the right thing in a given situation.

I agree. I don't think they are all that much alike.

Ned was described as a rather shy youth; Jon isn't particularly shy.

Also, Jon is more decisive, and less likely to cave to a stronger will (like Ned frequently did).

I don't believe he would be as trustful, either.