[AdwD Spoilers] "Septa" Lemore

[corbon]

I agree that it doesn't PROVE anything, but it is a strong hint that Martin didn't even think of that information as significant. He did not appear to be acting, but rather seemed genuinely confused that someone would ask him that. Also, he has been known to sidestep, dodge, and avoid questions, but has he ever flat-out lied to us? He could have simply ignored me, or he could have said something like "dark eyes.

He did exactly what you suggest. He sidestepped the question. He doesn't lie about details, but pretending to not know an answer is not the same as lying.

It is also highly possible that he truthfully could not remember, and didn't immediately understand the significance of the question. A lot of the Lemore stuff was probably written several years back - it was early in the book, overlapped a lot with the previous book and is unlikely to have been among the rewriting mess around the meerenese knot - and he has a record of not remembering stuff when he hasn't been in that 'area' for some time (apparently he sometimes has to ask Ran, among others, what colour some character's eyes are).

If he'd said something like 'dark eyes' and they turned out not, he'd have been actually lying to us. Not remembering is the simplest and safest answer, especially if it is partially or completely true.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Wouter]

Why would Tyene's mother be hiding her identity? Lemore is, or so she seems to remind Connington.

This is not certain. Lemore reminded Aegon he wasn't the only one who needed to hide his identity, and while she may well have been aiming at her own identity, Jon Connington was also still hiding his identity at that point and she could have meant just him (though more likely both herself and Jon, depending on who she is).

[corbon]

This is not certain. Lemore reminded Aegon he wasn't the only one who needed to hide his identity, and while she may well have been aiming at her own identity, Jon Connington was also still hiding his identity at that point and she could have meant just him (though more likely both herself and Jon, depending on who she is).

True, especially if it was Aegon she reminded, not Connington as I had misremembered.

So, is Lemore = Tyenes' mother only if not hiding her identity?

I'm not now, nor I think have at any time argued it was impossible. I just don't see any payoff and I do see several things that would point elsewhere under what appears to be the most likely interpretations of them.

[Wouter]

Admittedly, there would be a nicer payoff if it was someone more consequential than Tyene's mother.

At the same time, Ashara seems unlikely. Aegon's real mother - whatever her real identity - would work but Illyrio's wife seems to be pushed by the text for that role.

Unsolved mystery for the time being.

[Miriamele]

Here is a bonkers theory. Lemore is Lyanna. She leaves her own son in Ned's care, knowing that Ned will keep his promise of silence not only about Jon's true parentage but also her whereabouts: caring for her dead lover/bigamist husband's son by another woman.

WHY would she do that? Because she's bonkers in love with Rhaegar, even after his death, and does what she thinks he would want. Rhaegar's pal, Jon Connington, plots this with her. Both of Rhaegar's sons are kept safe.

Physically, Lemore sounds like she could be an older Lyanna: educated, dark-haired, attractive but not a raving beauty. One obvious argument against, however, is that Lyanna probably was educated in the Old Faith rather than the Faith of the Seven, so being in charge of Young Griff/Aegon's religious education would seem to be an odd assignment. On the other hand, who else?

It could also be that YG is in fact Lyanna's son, not Aegon. In that case maybe Ned did father a bastard. Or Lyanna had twins and they separated them for safety. The Stark looking with Ned, the Targ looking with Lyanna. Like Luke or Lea in Star Wars only with two boys.

[Hedge Knight]

Agree that Lemore being Tyene's mother doesn't make sense. Doran Martell would probably know if this were true. He is raising Tyene's daughter. And then why send Quentin past Volantis to slavers Bay to Dany. He could have sent for Young Griff and the Golden Co. and started his revenge for Elia.

Lemore being Ashara makes the most sense. Lemore being Serra, Illyrio's 2nd wife could make sense if YG is Illyrio's son.

[Lady Sand]

The problems are that she doesn't have Targ looks at all as far as I can see. Granted, Jon doesn't either so it's possible, but Aegon clearly does have "the look" which would be unlikely I guess, if Lemore is his real mother.

Are we sure Lemore's hair is really dark? She is traveling in the company of two men who dye their hair to hide their true identities. I wouldn't be too hard for her to get the idea to dye her own hair darker. Beneath the dye, her hair might very well be silver-blond, or any color possible, so her hair-color can't be used as strong evidence.

[Wouter]

Are we sure Lemore's hair is really dark? She is traveling in the company of two men who dye their hair to hide their true identities. I wouldn't be too hard for her to get the idea to dye her own hair darker. Beneath the dye, her hair might very well be silver-blond, or any color possible, so her hair-color can't be used as strong evidence.

Her hair could be dyed I suppose; her eye color appears to be unremarkable though. Some Targs have normal eye colour so this could still be possible.

[Yellow Dog]

I think she is Tyene´s mother. (must check hair colors). But come on, Septa Lemore is just Oberyn´s type - and presumably vice versa.

I like it. Especially with Dorne making secret pacts with the Targs, figures that a Dornish Septa with royal connections would be chosen to tutor Young Griff.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

"Septa" Lemore seems to be comfortable with casual nudity. Is this an important clue?

[Galen M]

"Septa" Lemore seems to be comfortable with casual nudity. Is this an important clue?

I always thought it was just fan service

[Wouter]

I like it. Especially with Dorne making secret pacts with the Targs, figures that a Dornish Septa with royal connections would be chosen to tutor Young Griff.

Dorne made a pact with Willem Darry, for Viserys. Dorne didn't know anything whatsoever about "Aegon", Connington and even Lemore. If she is Tyene's mother, this is outside the knowledge of Doran.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

If he'd said something like 'dark eyes' and they turned out not, he'd have been actually lying to us. Not remembering is the simplest and safest answer, especially if it is partially or completely true.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

If a cigar was just a cigar, then Septa Lemore would just be some woman Tyrion muses about. Are you saying that Martin didn't "remember" that Lemore was supposed to be Ashara? Or that Ashara was supposed to have purple eyes? I find either of those scenarios to be unlikely. If a cigar is just a cigar, then Martin really did not remember what color Septa Lemore's eyes were, and that would seem to indicate that they are not important.

[corbon]

If a cigar was just a cigar, then Septa Lemore would just be some woman Tyrion muses about. Are you saying that Martin didn't "remember" that Lemore was supposed to be Ashara? Or that Ashara was supposed to have purple eyes? I find either of those scenarios to be unlikely. If a cigar is just a cigar, then Martin really did not remember what color Septa Lemore's eyes were, and that would seem to indicate that they are not important.

You could have at least acknowledged the part of the same post you quoted where I gave a potential reason why he may not remember.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

You could have at least acknowledged the part of the same post you quoted where I gave a potential reason why he may not remember.

I find it hard to believe, if he's got this big reveal in store as everyone is claiming with this theory, that he hasn't thought about her most salient feature, mentioned twice 4 books apart: her eye color. Thus, I don't think your point about why he may not remember is valid, but we'll just have to wait, like, for another decade or so to find out who's right. :frown5:

[Hedge Knight]

Barristan's recollection od Ashara gives her the same personality as Tyrion observes of Lemore on the boat..

Even after all these years, SerBarristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes.

The smile, teasing and playfullness of Lemore with Tyrion/Hugor.

"I missed the ridgeback." I was watching the naked woman."I am sad for you." Lemore slipped her robe over her head. "I know you only rise so early in hopes of seeing turtles."

"I like to watch the suncome up as well." It was like watching a maiden rising naked from her bath. Some might be prettier than others, but every one was fullof promise. "The turtles have their charms, I will allow. Nothing delights me so much as the sight of a nice pair of shapely …shells."

Septa Lemore laughed.....I do not want to know her, I only want to f**k her. She knew it too. As she hung her septa's crystal about her neck, to nestle in the cleft between her breasts, she teased him with a smile.

[Hedge Knight]

Whoops - double post.

[lezboyd]

OK, this theory is based more on the TV series than on the books, so I will put it in spoilers. But to summarize, Lemore is one of Littlefinger's.

In the TV series, there is a scene where Littlefinger is talking with Ned Stark in the Godswood of KL. He points out to 2 half-naked children and says they are Varys' little birds. He points out to the gardener and says he is the Queen's, and he points out to a Septa reading a book on a bench and says she is one of his. Also, there are these moments where Varys and Littlefinger exchange a duel of words, and in one of these, Littlefinger points out to knowing that Varys had met with a certain guest from overseas (Magister Illyrio), thus hinting that he had an idea Varys was plotting something. Putting these 2 together, I am thinking Lemore is one of Littlefinger's informants placed with Little Griff in order to keep tabs on him.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Everyone seems to think Lemore has to be Lyanna Stark or Ashara Dayne, aren't there any other middle aged women in westeros? How old is the woman Tytos Lannister became involved with after his wife's death? Maybe she's back to settle a score with house Lannister, and has a Lannister bastard someplace, that if legitimized could be the Lord of Casterly Rock.

[lezboyd]

Everyone seems to think Lemore has to be Lyanna Stark or Ashara Dayne, aren't there any other middle aged women in westeros? How old is the woman Tytos Lannister became involved with after his wife's death? Maybe she's back to settle a score with house Lannister, and has a Lannister bastard someplace, that if legitimized could be the Lord of Casterly Rock.

There is no mention of her having been pregnant when Tywin kicked her out...not this far in the books anyway.