[AdwD Spoilers] "Septa" Lemore

[Dayne Gurl!]

New around here and I just wanted to ask a few questions pertaining to the discussion (which, btw, is great, ugh I just love this speculating! :drunk: ).

Alright from what I've read, Lady/Septa Lemore is either Ashara or some other unknown educated woman, presumably of nobility/high birth.

I have a few questions that perhaps some of you can answer:

1. Griff's age is around 16/17, yes?
   
2. Can we guess around what year Ashara had her stillborn child? (I'm drawing blanks as to whether it was before or after Ned brought her Dawn)
   
3. As previously mentioned by a few posters, the violet eyes of some Targaryen's appeared at times black or blue, can we confirm a few characters (Griff is my first thought)?
   

Now I have to agree with a few about Ashara's death; yes, we did not get much information about her personality, but going over a cliff seemed to dramatic/romantic to me.

I don't know, there's so much information in the books, yet little to point us assuredly in the correct path. I want to believe that, say, Ashara did fall off a cliff, but onto a boat and on to the Free Cities! And that Aegon is really Illyrio's son (that statue Tyrion saw in Pentos echoed a resemblance to the YG, but I'm starting to wonder if all boys with fair hair and slender bodies look alike). :laugh:

Regardless, keep the discussion going, I can't wait to read what else you guys got! :wub:

[Hotpie Targaryen]

Agreed. But it is a trick he has done before. When Tyrion ran into Jorah in the whorehouse, he unusually didn't give us an eye colour. We got the surcoat Bear (a clue) and the look of the girl (another clue), but the description to confirm it was noticeably absent.

Yes, but the Jorah thing was very quickly resolved, there wasn't much of a length of time before the reveal. It doesn't feel like it was meant to be a mystery for more than a page or two, really. And if I'm remembering correctly, Jorah's eyes aren't really remarkable, so no mention of them means that it probably wasn't something most people would consider to be a distinguishing feature. The Lemore/Ashara thing would strike me as unfairly cheaty, while the Jorah thing did not for the above reasons.

[Galen M]

I don't know, there's so much information in the books, yet little to point us assuredly in the correct path. I want to believe that, say, Ashara did fall off a cliff, but onto a boat and on to the Free Cities! And that Aegon is really Illyrio's son (that statue Tyrion saw in Pentos echoed a resemblance to the YG, but I'm starting to wonder if all boys with fair hair and slender bodies look alike). :laugh:

Yes, I've seen both of those theories posited about:

1) YG is Illyrio's son with his Lysenese {?} wife.

2) YG is Lemore's son.

[Daemon23]

What do we know about Ashara? We know that she supposedly killed herself by throwing herself into the sea.

And what do we know of Lemore? She's a competent swimmer.

I don't know who Lemore is, but I think this theory is at least plausible.

[Galen M]

And what do we know of Lemore? She's a competent swimmer.

I don't know who Lemore is, but I think this theory is at least plausible.

Competent enough to jump off a cliff into the sea, swim away from shore underwater, and then across the Narrow Sea to join up with Connington's band of misfits?

[Markus]

But it is a trick he has done before. When Tyrion ran into Jorah in the whorehouse, he unusually didn't give us an eye colour. We got the surcoat Bear (a clue) and the look of the girl (another clue), but the description to confirm it was noticeably absent.

When Tyrion met Jorah GRRM didn't let Tyrion omit Jorah's eye color because he didn't want to give away Jorah's identity. The color of Jorah's eyes isn't a salient feature which could be used to reveal it. If GRRM wanted to obscure Jorah's identity he would've failed to give us the most revealing feature about Jorah: the black bear on his wool surcoat. This would've been the equivalent of Ashara's purple eyes and not Jorah's unremarkable eyes.

Tyrion's meeting with Jorah is a good example that Tyrion sometimes doesn't mention eye color because he didn't notice it or because it's unremarkable. It's not a good example to show that GRRM plays tricks with omitting prominent features to obscure a character's identity. Hence, it's also an example why Tyrion omitting Lemore's eye lends itself more to them simply being unremarkable like with Jorah than to to them being the most remarkable feature about her.

[Dio Forel]

Competent enough to jump off a cliff into the sea, swim away from shore underwater, and then across the Narrow Sea to join up with Connington's band of misfits?

LOL. She is a REALLY good swimmer then. I'm just curious what the equivalent of miles would be from where she jumped to the ending point. It does make sense that she was mentioned to be a good swimmer so thinking she jumped and swam away into exile somewhere. That fact is logical. But for some reason I picture that being a hell of a swim to accomplish. If it wasn't that far distance wise then sure I could say it is plausible. But if it is how I picture it... they say she is a competent swimmer not a fish. I am a good runner but I'm not pretending to jump off my roof then run from New York to Florida.

Although... maybe it just LOOKED like she jumped to her death in the water but it was a swan dive and they never saw her come up or recovered her body because she swam SOMEWHERE (not all the way across the Narrow Sea) then eventually wound up with the misfits that is a possibility.

Post #250 baby aww yeah. Not that that is in any way relevant, I just like pointing out certain numbers lol.

[Galen M]

LOL. She is a REALLY good swimmer then. I'm just curious what the equivalent of miles would be from where she jumped to the ending point. It does make sense that she was mentioned to be a good swimmer so thinking she jumped and swam away into exile somewhere. That fact is logical. But for some reason I picture that being a hell of a swim to accomplish. If it wasn't that far distance wise then sure I could say it is plausible. But if it is how I picture it... they say she is a competent swimmer not a fish. I am a good runner but I'm not pretending to jump off my roof then run from New York to Florida.

Well, the Narrow Sea is quite narrow. I'd say it's about 100 miles or so; approximately the distance from Miami to Cuba, maybe.

[Jon AS]

Well, the Narrow Sea is quite narrow. I'd say it's about 100 miles or so; approximately the distance from Miami to Cuba, maybe.

I think even at the narrowest point, between Dorne and the Disputed Lands, it's closer to 300 miles. And Starfall is at the western end of Dorne, so add another 1000 miles or so to that.;)

The theory I could see working would be that Ashara faked her death in a really dramatic fashion and was picked up by a boat. Why she would do that instead of having her family just tell everyone that she killed herself I can't say, though.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I like the idea that Septa Lemore is Ashara (primarily because there's a chance she could hook up with Barristan later, awww), but what I don't understand is why she faked her death and ran away...???

The only reason that makes any kind of sense to me is if her child is somehow important. A miscarrage/stillbirth could easily be faked along with her own death. But why would her child be important? One possibility would be if YG is really her son, but I think that Young Griff is not her kid - the evidence IMO is much stronger than he is Illyrio's child.

So, then maybe her child is actually Ned (or Brandon :stillsick:) Stark's. But why hide her Stark bastard? There's no shame in having a bastard in Dorne, and she could have it fostered with the Martells or something.

So that leaves the idea that Ashara just wanted a fresh start...? Maybe she was going to be forced into a marriage she didn't want (perhaps as "spoiled goods" her marriage prospects to snotty Northern lords weren't as good anymore?).

[corbon]

Competent enough to jump off a cliff into the sea, swim away from shore underwater, and then across the Narrow Sea to join up with Connington's band of misfits?

According to Varys he spirited Aegon away secretly after switching the babes. Baby Aegon didn't swim across the narrow sea, so there must be at least one ship involved.

He's going to need someone to look after the babe. Ashara was Elia's Handmaid, and has the eye colour to match. She's loyal, familiar to the babe, had a child herself and has the right colour eyes.

It's possible that there was a ship awaiting possibly with Aegon aboard. Ashara didn't swim across the narrow sea, obviously.

It is all connected...

[Dragonfish]

When Tyrion met Jorah GRRM didn't let Tyrion omit Jorah's eye color because he didn't want to give away Jorah's identity. The color of Jorah's eyes isn't a salient feature which could be used to reveal it. If GRRM wanted to obscure Jorah's identity he would've failed to give us the most revealing feature about Jorah: the black bear on his wool surcoat. This would've been the equivalent of Ashara's purple eyes and not Jorah's unremarkable eyes.

Tyrion's meeting with Jorah is a good example that Tyrion sometimes doesn't mention eye color because he didn't notice it or because it's unremarkable. It's not a good example to show that GRRM plays tricks with omitting prominent features to obscure a character's identity. Hence, it's also an example why Tyrion omitting Lemore's eye lends itself more to them simply being unremarkable like with Jorah than to to them being the most remarkable feature about her.

IIRC, Aegon's eyes were first described as blue, but we find out later that they're really a shade of purple, and only look blue due to his hair color. It's entirely possible, I think, that Lemore's eyes look like something closer to black when framed by her dark brown hair. And that would probably be an unremarkable eye color to Tyrion.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Then why fake her own death? Why not just go into exile? That bugs me. People fake their own deaths when someone might be looking for them, and there hasn't been a reason given why she might need to be dead to everyone in Westeros. Has a theory been posited for why this dramatic lie needed to be told? It seems like this, along with the discrepancies in her appearance, force the reader to do a LOT of work to make this theory true. Unless... she did try to kill herself, lived, and washed up somewhere else, but then why not just go back home? Lemore states that she needs to stay hidden, and I just can't imagine why Ashara would need to.

[Dio Forel]

I think even at the narrowest point, between Dorne and the Disputed Lands, it's closer to 300 miles. And Starfall is at the western end of Dorne, so add another 1000 miles or so to that.;)

The theory I could see working would be that Ashara faked her death in a really dramatic fashion and was picked up by a boat. Why she would do that instead of having her family just tell everyone that she killed herself I can't say, though.

Well then that would be a hell of a swim lol.

[Brucolac]

....like the idea that Septa Lemore is Ashara (primarily because there's a chance she could hook up with Barristan later, awww), but what I don't understand is why she faked her death and ran away...???

I doubt very much Ashara's own child is alive, but if she faked her suicide, it would have been so she could secretly help to raise one of her closest friend's child. This would have filled the void of losing her own and she would have been a logical choice for Vary's when looking for someone to help raise him. Her loyalty would have been known and she would have been able to serve as a wet nurse for Aegon too.

She would need to stay hidden because people would start asking why she faked her death, and what she has been doing.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

I doubt very much Ashara's own child is alive, but if she faked her suicide, it would have been so she could secretly help to raise one of her closest friend's child.

Why fake your own death to do that? Why not just go into exile? Jon Connington did, and he was much more politically charged a person than Ashara. The feeling I got from Septa Lemore was that she was hiding in fear, as if people were looking for her. No one is looking for Ashara, and indeed, how many people would even recognize her anymore?

She would need to stay hidden because people would start asking why she faked her death, and what she has been doing.

This seems sort of backwards to me: she faked her own death, THEREFORE she had to hide, but usually people have to hide, THEREFORE they fake their own deaths.

[Ygritte]

Why fake your own death to do that? Why not just go into exile? Jon Connington did, and he was much more politically charged a person than Ashara. The feeling I got from Septa Lemore was that she was hiding in fear, as if people were looking for her. No one is looking for Ashara, and indeed, how many people would even recognize her anymore?

Connington's a bad example--he did have a faked death. He's mentioned as dead early in the series, having drunk himself to death in exile, and in ADWD it turns out that's a cover story.

[Brucolac]

If Ashara's death was faked and she is actually Lemora with Aegon, it is because she is part of the conspiracy to hide the switch and was recruited by Varys. Her death was faked so she could disappear without questions about what she is doing and she would need to stay that way as long as Aegon is hidden when she would eventually be used as a testament to who he is.

[Jem]

• 
  
• Ashara was ‘dishonored’ at Harrenhal by Rhaegar and became pregnant
  
• Elia became pregnant at approximately the same time
  
• Elia, in delicate health, confined herself in her chambers for the duration on her pregnancy being attended by only Ashara and Wylla
  
• A few people know that Ashara is pregnant: Elia, Rhaegar, Wylla, Barristan; but mostly she is kept hidden in Elia’s room to save her from disgrace
  
• Elia and Ashara go into labor at approximately the same time
  
• Elia gives birth to a stillborn daughter; Ashara gives birth to a healthy son
  
• Ashara gives the distraught Elia her son – Ashara, being unmarried knows she cannot keep him. The people who knew of Ashara’s pregnancy are told the stillborn daughter is Ashara’s
  
• Rhaegar names his son Aegon (as per Dany’s vision in the house of the Undying, where Elia is in bed with the new baby)
  
• By this stage the Rebellion is underway and Rhaegar fears for the safety of his son
  
• With Varys’s assistance, Rhaegar switches Aegon with a common baby
  
• Rhaegar orders Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and the other dude whose name I can never remember to escort Ashara and Aegon to Starfall
  
• The 3KG are then ordered to remain at the ToJ to guard Lyanna and to prevent attackers from the north from getting to Starfall
  
• Rhaegar dies, Kings Landing is sacked, Robert wins
  
• Ned Stark and companions go to the ToJ, kill the 3KG, find the dying Lyanna and pick up baby Jon
  
• Ned goes on to Starfall to return Dawn to Ashara and to break the bad news that the Targs have fallen
  
• Ashara, with assistance from Varys, fakes her own death and takes Aegon into exile
  
• A few years later Varys sends Jon Connington to help Ashara raise Aegon
  
• Ashara takes on the guise of Septa Lemore
  
• Therefore Aegon is the son of Rhaegar, but as he is not the son of Rhaegar’s legitimate wife, Aegon is not Rhaegar’s legitimate heir
  
• Only Elia and Ashara knew of the original swap, so Ashara aka Lemore is the only person alive who knows that she is the mother of Aegon. Varys, JonCon and everyone else involved believe Aegon to be Rhaegar’s legitimate heir.
  

[Brucolac]

I actually like Rhaegar as the person who dishonored her at Harrenhal too. We all know he thought he had to bring about the prince that was promised prophecy, and Ashara could easily be one of many women he was sleeping with. There is no reason to think he would only stop at Lyanna.