[AdwD Spoilers] "Septa" Lemore

[Calibandar]

Why can't it be be Tyene's mother

Because no one would care? Lemore being Tyene Sand's mother strikes me as an extremely uninteresting reveal. It would add far too little to Lemore's character to have it make sense that Lemore has a hidden identity. You have to look at it from a storytelling POV, from GRRM's POV. Tyene Sand is a very minor character in her own right; Lemore turning out to be her mother is far too obscure and your general readers would take nothing away from such a reveal.

Plus there is the oft mentioned fact that Lemore does not look like Tyene Sand, and Oberyn was dark-haired as well. So this idea is definitly false, we can throw it in the bin as a crackpot.

Anyway, having read through the whole thread now, it does seem unlikely that Lemore is Ashara. The dialogue between Jon and Lemore in the book also doesn't feel right if she is supposed to be Ashara. I still think the "you're half a boy" comment to Lemore should be meaningful somehow.

BTW the strongest argument for it not being Ashara is the Jon Connington quote mentioned earlier: "He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that.".

This suggests that over time he had gotten to know her. Ashara on the other hand is someone he already knew from his youth.

[1234567]

She's Dani and Viserys mother. Que scene where Dani finds out her mother didn't die in childbirth but abandoned them to look after Aegon.

[MJasper]

She's Dani and Viserys mother. Que scene where Dani finds out her mother didn't die in childbirth but abandoned them to look after Aegon.

That would make Oberyn Martell's death extremely tragic.

[lezboyd]

Because no one would care? Lemore being Tyene Sand's mother strikes me as an extremely uninteresting reveal. It would add far too little to Lemore's character to have it make sense that Lemore has a hidden identity. You have to look at it from a storytelling POV, from GRRM's POV. Tyene Sand is a very minor character in her own right; Lemore turning out to be her mother is far too obscure and your general readers would take nothing away from such a reveal.

Have you read ADwD? GRRM has gone ahead and described the hair, eyes and body type of every beggar that the POV characters have come across. Does not mean they are all relevant. Plus, IIRC, Lemore was left behind whist Haldon, Jon and Aegon set forth on horseback to meet with the Golden Company.

Just because Tyrion took notice of Lemore does not mean she is some important character. Tyrion took notice of Shae too, but she turned out to be nothing more than an ambitious whore. Its interesting though that Jon thinks of Lemore as a Lady, which does hint to a secret identity. But then why leave her behind?

[Calibandar]

Have you read ADwD?

No. I'm just posting at random.

[Galen M]

Because no one would care? Lemore being Tyene Sand's mother strikes me as an extremely uninteresting reveal. It would add far too little to Lemore's character to have it make sense that Lemore has a hidden identity. You have to look at it from a storytelling POV, from GRRM's POV. Tyene Sand is a very minor character in her own right; Lemore turning out to be her mother is far too obscure and your general readers would take nothing away from such a reveal.

Plus there is the oft mentioned fact that Lemore does not look like Tyene Sand, and Oberyn was dark-haired as well. So this idea is definitly false, we can throw it in the bin as a crackpot.

Not every secret identity has to be meaningful. There is no grand Lemore conspiracy; it's just Tyrion wondering about her identity. The readers would care if she is Tyene's mother, and that's enough from a story tell perspective. Anyway, you are obviously arguing that she has to be significant, yet you dismiss Ashara and Tyene's mother, the two most common theories, without offering one of your own.

As for the hair coloring, as has been pointed out a bunch of times in previous threads, two brunettes can produce a blonde due to recessive genes. It happens all the time.

[Suzette]

That would make Oberyn Martell's death extremely tragic.

Dany and Viserys's mother is Rhaella Targaryen not Elia Martell (Oberyn's Sister).

Rhaella died giving birth to Dany @ Dragonstone

Elia Martell was killed my the Mountain/Tywin Lannister (under orders)

I have a feeling both are truly dead and neither are Septa Lemore. I could be wrong tho.

[Dragonfish]

This suggests that over time he had gotten to know her. Ashara on the other hand is someone he already knew from his youth.

I don't think we have any evidence that they knew each other in any meaningful sense. IIRC, the only interaction between Ashara and Connington before the war that we know about is their dance at Harrenhal. So while they had met each other at least once, that doesn't meat they knew each other very well.

[Calibandar]

It could, but in his own mind and POV he refers to her as Lemore as well. Not as Ashara. And he says that he grew fond of her over time, and all of that suggests he only got to know her at a later point in time.

Let's face it, it simply isn't Ashara.

Galen

The readers would care if she is Tyene's mother, and that's enough from a story tell perspective. Anyway, you are obviously arguing that she has to be significant, yet you dismiss Ashara and Tyene's mother, the two most common theories, without offering one of your own.

I think Ashara would make a great reveal, but it doesn't appear to be her.

Tyene's mother on the other hand is a totally uninteresting "reveal". She is not enough of a character to make it worthwhile for Septa Lemore to have a hidden identity, which is what we are all assuming here. From a storytelling POV, that sort of reveal would make no impact. Most readers would probably wonder who Tyene Sand is in the first place, let alone her mother. Far, far too obscure.

I don't know who it is though. It's a true mystery.

[Wouter]

A female Blackfyre who is also Aegon's real mother would work - it would be a great reveal (because Aegon obviously would not be Elia's and Rhaegar's son as claimed) and offer a reason for all the secrecy.

The problems are that she doesn't have Targ looks at all as far as I can see. Granted, Jon doesn't either so it's possible, but Aegon clearly does have "the look" which would be unlikely I guess, if Lemore is his real mother. And Illyrio's deceased wife seems a stronger candidate for that, anyway.

[Galen M]

I think Ashara would make a great reveal, but it doesn't appear to be her.

Tyene's mother on the other hand is a totally uninteresting "reveal". She is not enough of a character to make it worthwhile for Septa Lemore to have a hidden identity, which is what we are all assuming here. From a storytelling POV, that sort of reveal would make no impact. Most readers would probably wonder who Tyene Sand is in the first place, let alone her mother. Far, far too obscure.

I don't know who it is though. It's a true mystery.

It doesn't have to be some huge reveal. That's whole point of easter eggs/little things: they are minor things that readers can pick up on on a reread. There have been so many other minor, insignificant easter eggs, that I don't understand how you can automatically rule out Tyene's mother.

[corbon]

It doesn't have to be some huge reveal. That's whole point of easter eggs/little things: they are minor things that readers can pick up on on a reread. There have been so many other minor, insignificant easter eggs, that I don't understand how you can automatically rule out Tyene's mother.

Why would Tyene's mother be hiding her identity? Lemore is, or so she seems to remind Connington.

[GreenSeeress]

Here is a bonkers theory. Lemore is Lyanna. She leaves her own son in Ned's care, knowing that Ned will keep his promise of silence not only about Jon's true parentage but also her whereabouts: caring for her dead lover/bigamist husband's son by another woman.

WHY would she do that? Because she's bonkers in love with Rhaegar, even after his death, and does what she thinks he would want. Rhaegar's pal, Jon Connington, plots this with her. Both of Rhaegar's sons are kept safe.

Physically, Lemore sounds like she could be an older Lyanna: educated, dark-haired, attractive but not a raving beauty. One obvious argument against, however, is that Lyanna probably was educated in the Old Faith rather than the Faith of the Seven, so being in charge of Young Griff/Aegon's religious education would seem to be an odd assignment. On the other hand, who else?

[Galen M]

Why would Tyene's mother be hiding her identity? Lemore is, or so she seems to remind Connington.

to avoid being connected back to Dorne...

[corbon]

to avoid being connected back to Dorne...

Why? What is the problem with her being connected back to Dorne? She's clearly playing a Septa, which is Westeros' 'state' religion and is not, it appears, part of the Essos culture.

Is Tyene's mother said to be on the run from Oberyn?

[Hedge Knight]

Here is a bonkers theory. Lemore is Lyanna. She leaves her own son in Ned's care, knowing that Ned will keep his promise of silence not only about Jon's true parentage but also her whereabouts: caring for her dead lover/bigamist husband's son by another woman.

WHY would she do that? Because she's bonkers in love with Rhaegar, even after his death, and does what she thinks he would want. Rhaegar's pal, Jon Connington, plots this with her. Both of Rhaegar's sons are kept safe.

Physically, Lemore sounds like she could be an older Lyanna: educated, dark-haired, attractive but not a raving beauty. One obvious argument against, however, is that Lyanna probably was educated in the Old Faith rather than the Faith of the Seven, so being in charge of Young Griff/Aegon's religious education would seem to be an odd assignment. On the other hand, who else?

Lyanna is not Septa Lemore. Lyanna looks like a Stark. Like Ned; like Arya; like Jon. All people who Tyrion hs recently met. He would notice this....once he gets used to seeing her naked every morning, he would eventually look at her face and recognize the Stark resemblance.

[Stark Shadow]

I'm of the belief that Ashara is Lemore. At some point, she was approached with the plan of smuggling Aegon out of Westeros, left KL, and returned to Starfall (probably after the stillborn death of her daughter), where Eddard Stark returned Dawn to her. She dives off Palestone Tower, swims to a ship moored there, and leaves Westeros with Aegon and Jon. Pure speculation (then again I guess all of this is- lol) but I see Dawn making an appearance at some point in the future.

We've also been given way too much information about Ashara for her to remain purely a secondary, dead character. I think we learned she had a stillborn daughter to prove she's not Jon's mother and being pregnant leaves stretch marks. There's no reason for Barristan to remember that about her if it didn't mean something for the future.

I wondered why Jon (we) were given the breakdown of the Karstark family tree and who the 'true' lord or lady was and the only reason I can come up with is because this is what it's going to come down to when Aegon and Dany both enter Westeros (with Aegon the true Targ king) to reclaim the throne. And Ashara's presence will help to prove he is who he says he is.

If Lemore is Ashara, what does that potentially add to the story? I mean, it seems like when people are hiding their identities it usually ends up being some bigger reveal that's going to have larger ramifications throughout out the story. (Aegon, Sansa, etc)

What does Ashara suddenly showing up matter?

It matters because when the time comes for Young Griff and Dany to finally meet, Barristan will be able to confirm the identity of YG, knowing that the septa with him is Ashara. That's why we were given some backstory of his love for Ashara - simply b/c it'll go towards proving she is who she says she is and the truth of who she's protecting.

Septa training fits Ashara perfectly. She was a highborn young woman who was dishonoured and birthed a (stillborn) child out of wedlock. She had time to start such a vocation (or the training for it) before she 'suicided', and it makes the perfect cover after she 'suicides'.

If Ashara's "noblewoman training" was anything like Sansa's, then I'd think her 'regular', daily training would be enough to prep her for a fake identity as a Septa. I think Sansa, one of the lamest characters in the series, could pull it off; why not Ashara?

Ashara was 16 in Harrenhal, IIRC, which would mean Lemore is definitely too old. Of course, Tyrion could be wrong about her age, but I rather doubt it.

I think it's totally plausible for Tyrion to get her age wrong. Lord knows kids often get the age of their elders wrong; who's to say Tyrion can't get the age of someone who hasn't been living an easy life wrong? I seem to remember Jon describing some of the wildling women as looking older than they really were. Who knows, maybe if Ashara had a nice, long bath in a real tub and a chance to brush her hair, she'd change from "handsome" back to "pretty"?

Ok, guys, I saw GRRM this morning at SDCC. While he was signing an autograph for me, I asked him, flat out, "What color are Septa Lemore's eyes?" He looked at me like I had 3 heads, and said, "What?" I then repeated, "Septa Lemore. She had eyes. What color were they?" He responded, "I don't remember offhand." This pretty much disproves Lemore=Ashara. If she was, he would have said that they were violet eyes, or he would have dodged the question. There is no way that he would have forgotten she had Ashara's violet eyes. If he was playing coy with me, he deserves an Oscar because he certainly made me feel as if that was the dumbest question anyone could have asked.

Sorry but all this proves is that GRRM didn't want to answer your question. If he'd answered, her eyes are purple, it'd be all over the net. If he answered, her eyes are grey, it'd be all over the net. He gave you the only possible answer he could (and it's still on the net) ^_^

Then why fake her own death? Why not just go into exile? That bugs me. People fake their own deaths when someone might be looking for them, and there hasn't been a reason given why she might need to be dead to everyone in Westeros. Has a theory been posited for why this dramatic lie needed to be told? It seems like this, along with the discrepancies in her appearance, force the reader to do a LOT of work to make this theory true. Unless... she did try to kill herself, lived, and washed up somewhere else, but then why not just go back home? Lemore states that she needs to stay hidden, and I just can't imagine why Ashara would need to.

Robert sent assassins after Dany & Viserys the length of their lives. If Ashara Dayne suddenly appears (alive) in Braavos or another Free City with a boy older than 1, when she had only recently lost her own baby, word might've gotten back to KL. If Ashara's presumed dead, no one's looking for her and even though Septa Lemore might look like her, no one would think too deeply on it, it's just be a passing thought.

I actually like Rhaegar as the person who dishonored her at Harrenhal too. We all know he thought he had to bring about the prince that was promised prophecy, and Ashara could easily be one of many women he was sleeping with. There is no reason to think he would only stop at Lyanna.

But this doesn't fit with Ned's memory while in the whore house of Rhaegar and how it would've been out of character for him to sleep around. (Sorry, I don't have the exact quote but in GoT, he was comparing Robert's philandering with Rhaegar's not.)

[GreenSeeress]

I'm not sure I buy Lyanna's Stark looks as dispositive evidence that she's not Lemore. So far, the only person from Westeros who's seen her is Tyrion, and I'm not sure he'd be able to recognize a woman he's never seen before as a Stark just because she has dark hair. Even when she gets to Westeros, she's not likely to be instantly recognizable even to people who knew her as a 16 year old, let alone to people who've never seen her before, and may never have seen a Stark.

On the other hand, I'm not sure it's really possible that a living Lyanna is consistent with Ned's recollections in AGoT. So it remains a crackpot theory. I just have a sense that Lemore is someone important, and no one could be more mind-shattering a reveal than Lyanna.

If Young Griff is a fake, the importance of Lemore's identity fades, at least to me. If he's a fake, it's quite enough drama for Jon Connington to have been fooled (for JC clearly believes that YG is Aegon) without loading on someone else who everyone thought was dead.

[Galen M]

Why? What is the problem with her being connected back to Dorne? She's clearly playing a Septa, which is Westeros' 'state' religion and is not, it appears, part of the Essos culture.

Is Tyene's mother said to be on the run from Oberyn?

No, but I doubt Doran would be too happy if Dorne was publicly linked to Aegon (or even to Jon Connington), whether or not he is real. Someone asked for one reason why she'd need to hide her identity; I provided one.

Sorry but all this proves is that GRRM didn't want to answer your question. If he'd answered, her eyes are purple, it'd be all over the net. If he answered, her eyes are grey, it'd be all over the net. He gave you the only possible answer he could (and it's still on the net) ^_^

I agree that it doesn't PROVE anything, but it is a strong hint that Martin didn't even think of that information as significant. He did not appear to be acting, but rather seemed genuinely confused that someone would ask him that. Also, he has been known to sidestep, dodge, and avoid questions, but has he ever flat-out lied to us? He could have simply ignored me, or he could have said something like "dark eyes.

[corbon]

No, but I doubt Doran would be too happy if Dorne was publicly linked to Aegon (or even to Jon Connington), whether or not he is real. Someone asked for one reason why she'd need to hide her identity; I provided one.

Me, among others.

I still don't understand it as a reason.

Tyene's mother is a political non-entity (AFAIK) and though Dornish, wouldn't publicly link Dorne to Aegon (or Connington) any more than Mya Stone links Arynn to Baratheon, or Tyrion Lannister links the rest of the Lannisters to Jorah Mormont. And Lemore isn't hiding her Dornishness anyway.

Putting it another way, lets assume Lemore is Tyene's mother. Would she even care what Doran wanted in the first place? and would she be politically relevant enough to connect Doran to Connington in anyones eyes if they knew? She's just a non-noble bastards-mother right (and only one of many to boot)?

It doesn't seem to make a reason to me, but am I missing something big?