[AdwD Spoilers] "Septa" Lemore

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Connington's a bad example--he did have a faked death. He's mentioned as dead early in the series, having drunk himself to death in exile, and in ADWD it turns out that's a cover story.

He did, but he was in exile long before that, and no one went after him. When Ashara supposedly died, wasn't it totally possible that she could have just disappeared? Who would have gone looking for her?

[Dio Forel]

He did, but he was in exile long before that, and no one went after him. When Ashara supposedly died, wasn't it totally possible that she could have just disappeared? Who would have gone looking for her?

Very possible. Everybody has accepted her as committing suicide. Nobody is actively looking for her that we've seen.

[corbon]

He did, but he was in exile long before that, and no one went after him. When Ashara supposedly died, wasn't it totally possible that she could have just disappeared? Who would have gone looking for her?

Sure, might be she could have. As always, lots of things are possible.

OTOH if reports had surfaced of a violet eyed westerosi woman with an infant boy with violet eyes in Essos and Ashara Dayne was only 'disappeared', someone might start thinking about if that was the missing Ashara, and remembering that Ashara was Elia's handmaid, and dead Aegon was unrecognisable, started getting suspicious.

People are less likely to make those initial connections if Ashara is 'known' to be dead.

Its the same principle as Jon Connington setting up the rumours that he'd drunk himself into an early grave. When people 'know' you are dead they don't start connecting dots as easily. Hence he can be 'Griff' leading mercenaries without to much close attention from westeros.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

OTOH if reports had surfaced of a violet eyed westerosi woman with an infant boy with violet eyes in Essos and Ashara Dayne was only 'disappeared', someone might start thinking about if that was the missing Ashara, and remembering that Ashara was Elia's handmaid, and dead Aegon was unrecognisable, started getting suspicious.

I thought there were plenty of people running around in Essos with violet eyes: Serra, the Lyseni whore Jorah was with, etc. Her eyes aren't that noticeably violet or Tyrion would have mentioned them, no? And a violet eyed woman with a violet eyed baby would just be mother and child, not "Ashara and Aegon." Everyone knew Elia was dead, so they wouldn't be looking for a violet-eyed boy with his violet-eyed mother. I mean, Aegon did grow up somehow with no one noticing him. Why would anyone have to "notice" Ashara and Aegon if the conspirators are looking out for them? If they are together now, wouldn't someone "notice" them now and be suspicious of their origins whether they suspect she's Ashara or not? Wouldn't Aegon look at her, with her violet eyes, and wonder if they were related?

People are less likely to make those initial connections if Ashara is 'known' to be dead.

Regardless, a bunch of people running around together with violet eyes are far more likely to draw attention to themselves, yet there they are, running around together. So either it's not very noticeable that they both have violet eyes (and the presence of two people a unique eye color is much more likely to draw attention to that eye color, hair dye notwithstanding), or one of them doesn't have violet eyes, in which case it's not Ashara. It's hard to believe an observant person like Tyrion would notice Aegon's eyes but not Ashara's, considering he was trying hard to figure out everyone's secret identity.

Its the same principle as Jon Connington setting up the rumours that he'd drunk himself into an early grave. When people 'know' you are dead they don't start connecting dots as easily. Hence he can be 'Griff' leading mercenaries without to much close attention from westeros.

I still fail to see why anyone would connect the dots anyway. Ashara could have fled Westeros for any number of non-Aegon related reasons. She could have not wanted to live in a kingdom ruled by Robert Baratheon; she could have been escaping the shame of bearing a bastard; she could have wanted to put an ocean between herself and the Stark who spurned her. Why create the whole big rumor that she killed herself? (And why start a rumor that she was in love with Ned Stark to begin with?)

I guess it's still not making a ton of sense to me. It feels like lots of contrivance and narrative cheating would have to have gone on to make this true. I am also kind of sick of everyone having secret identities like super heroes... enough is enough. So I'm both hoping this isn't true, and I'm not nearly convinced enough that it is. Unlike R+L, this just lacks the strong textual and subtextual evidence I would need to feel like it's worth taking seriously.

[imladolen]

The most important thing to take away from that is: if Jon Connington has known Ashara since Harrenhal, why on earth would he call her "Lemore" in his head? He would think about her as "Ashara". This isn't like Arya, Sansa and Theon, who have tried to mentally convince themselves that they have a new name in order to survive. Connington doesn't need to pretend that Ashara is Lemore in his internal thoughts.

Well, Sansa thinks of Petry Baelish as Father and herself as Alayne, Theon thinks of himself as Reek (and I think he even thinks of Jeyne Pool as Arya at least once, might be wrong). I don't think that Griff failing to think of her as anything but Lemore tells us anything really. For as long as she has been traveling with Griff and the supposed Aegon, you can assume she's been going by that name the whole time, and so it would only be natural after years of calling someone by one name to think of them as said name.

[NRDL]

One of the Red Viper's daughters ( one of the sand snakes ) had a septa for a mother. You see where I'm going with this?

[corbon]

One of the Red Viper's daughters ( one of the sand snakes ) had a septa for a mother. You see where I'm going with this?

Yep, its been touted before.

And she needs to hide her identity why?

And she is important to the story how?

Edit: Note, I'm not saying Lemore couldn't be her, just asking why she would need to hide her identity and why it would be important for the story. Is this setting up Oberyn (favours Aegon) vs Doran (favour Dany)? Doesn't seem likely or 'enough' to me. Why else?

[Ygritte]

Yep, its been touted before.

And she needs to hide her identity why?

And she is important to the story how?

Edit: Note, I'm not saying Lemore couldn't be her, just asking why she would need to hide her identity and why it would be important for the story. Is this setting up Oberyn (favours Aegon) vs Doran (favour Dany)? Doesn't seem likely or 'enough' to me. Why else?

I'm not sure she'd have to be hiding her identity if she's "just" Tyene's mom. Has Tyene's mom ever been named in the story? (I don't think so, but could be wrong.) If she's Tyene's mom, Lemore could very well be her real name and identity.

That said, I also think she may be someone more dramatic.

[Hedge Knight]

I used to be absolutely sure that Lemore was Ashara. However, after reading in another thread the evidence that Young Grif could be Illyrio's son by his second wife Serra (a whore from Lys and raised to the level of a "Lady"), then Lemore could be Serra sent to raise their son. I'm about 50% either way.

[the average Other]

I still fail to see why anyone would connect the dots anyway. Ashara could have fled Westeros for any number of non-Aegon related reasons. She could have not wanted to live in a kingdom ruled by Robert Baratheon; she could have been escaping the shame of bearing a bastard; she could have wanted to put an ocean between herself and the Stark who spurned her. Why create the whole big rumor that she killed herself? (And why start a rumor that she was in love with Ned Stark to begin with?)

While we've seen lots of examples of men who go into exile or just to tour Essos for fun on their own, I don't think we've had a single example of a Westerosi noblewoman doing the same. Dany was taken to exile as a baby with protectors and her brother, Lynesse had to go because she was married to a lord who was exiled and... um, that's about it. Westerosi noblewomen just don't up and leave on adventures on their own. If Ashara had openly done so it would have drawn attention and made a lot of people curious. People would have wanted to know why her family didn't stop her or send guards to drag her back before she shames her family beyond repair, they would have wondered who's taking care of her, and rumours about her life abroad would have flown all over the Seven Kingdoms. Some old suitors or people who thought they could take advantage of a lonely noblewoman in a strange land may even have gone looking for her.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

While we've seen lots of examples of men who go into exile or just to tour Essos for fun on their own, I don't think we've had a single example of a Westerosi noblewoman doing the same. Dany was taken to exile as a baby with protectors and her brother, Lynesse had to go because she was married to a lord who was exiled and... um, that's about it. Westerosi noblewomen just don't up and leave on adventures on their own. If Ashara had openly done so it would have drawn attention and made a lot of people curious. People would have wanted to know why her family didn't stop her or send guards to drag her back before she shames her family beyond repair, they would have wondered who's taking care of her, and rumours about her life abroad would have flown all over the Seven Kingdoms. Some old suitors or people who thought they could take advantage of a lonely noblewoman in a strange land may even have gone looking for her.

OK, fair enough... 20 years ago. By now, no one gives a crap anymore, and the majority of people who would recognize her are dead or not coming to Essos anytime soon. So why is she still so secretive? Why pretend to be a Septa? And why attract attention to Aegon's violet eyes by having another violet-eyed person running around with him?

I'm not saying Lemore = Ashara is wrong... I'm just still really skeptical and sick of secret identities.

[The King of Ashes]

I don't like the idea that she's Ashara. It seems like on this forum every single character is either a secret Targaryen, a warg, or Ashara Dayne and it baffles me.

[corbon]

I'm not sure she'd have to be hiding her identity if she's "just" Tyene's mom. Has Tyene's mom ever been named in the story? (I don't think so, but could be wrong.) If she's Tyene's mom, Lemore could very well be her real name and identity.

That said, I also think she may be someone more dramatic.

Lemore tells Griff that he's not the only one that needs to stay hidden. Or something like that.

I don't have the exact quote (happy for someone to provide), but the clear implication I got while reading, from the context and wording, was that she was in hiding (hiding her real identity) just as much he was.

That was the major clue that started people looking at who she could be, rather than just plain old minor character Septa Lemore.

[Seabright]

Crackpot

Septa Lemore is dying her hair

She is Illyrio's Second Wife Serra and Griffs Mother, who is in fact Lynesse Hightower former wife of Jorah Mormont.

Serra has similar features/coloring to Griff.

Illyrio found her in a Lysene pillow house.

Lynesse was chief concubine for a Lysenne Merchant/Prince.

Both Lynesse and Serra are described as having soft hands.

[Jon AS]

She is Illyrio's Second Wife Serra and Griffs Mother, who is in fact Lynesse Hightower former wife of Jorah Mormont.

Jorah fled Westeros less than 9 years before AGOT.

[Seabright]

Jorah fled Westeros less than 9 years before AGOT.

Thanks for the correction.

[Ser Greguh]

I may be the only person that desperately wants Ashara to actually be dead. Mostly I think it's a disgusted reaction to the emphasis of "...but they never found a body!" being presented as an actual legitimate point in favor of the idea, as if Starfall has a highly trained search-and-rescue squad with helicopters and thus there is an actual expectation of being able to find the body of a woman that throws herself off a cliff. In any case, I think it would be the height of cheap writing for Martin to include a description of Ashara's striking violet eyes in virtually every secondhand remembrance of her but then fail to mention them when a character comes into contact with Ashara in the flesh. That, coupled with the apparent age discrepancy, makes for an extremely unsound fit.

If we think that Lemore is indeed someone that has been previously seen or referenced within the series (which I think is reasonable), I think the most obvious candidate has to be Wylla. Points in favor of the idea include:

* The past pregnancy makes sense, as Wylla was a wet nurse and likely must have been pregnant at some point in her life for that; it's also, of course, consistent with N+W=J and R+L=J (which generally stipulates that in order for Wylla to be passed off as a potential mother to Jon, she had to have been pregnant near the time that Jon was born anyway).

* The non-septa-like non-shyness about being naked and general flirtiness fits well with both someone that made Ned Stark forget his wife and precious honor, if only for a few hours, as well as with someone who was being passed off as having done that (as a big R+L=J fan I've always been fond of the idea that Wylla actually did try to seduce Ned, though there's obviously no real evidence of that).

* Lemore's knowledge of Westeros and her ability to pass herself off as a Septa is consistent with Wylla's time spent around Westerosi nobility.

* Most importantly, perhaps, the age and likely appearance is a much better fit than is Ashara.

Now, as to how and why it is that a common wetnurse finds herself, sometime after the birth of Edric Dayne but not too long after, halfway across the world tutoring a boy being sold as the trueborn heir to Westeros, I must admit I have no idea.

[TheEvilKing]

I think she's just some septa, and Tyrion's brief wondering about her real identity is a red herring that has worked very nicely.

[Whatever]

Connington thinks of her as "Lady Lenore", so she's not just a septa

One of the Red Viper's daughters ( one of the sand snakes ) had a septa for a mother. You see where I'm going with this?

Nah. Tyere's hair is really light-blonde and Oberyn's hair was dark. If this septa is Tyene's mother, she should be a ble-eyed-blonde as well. We know her hair is light brown.. tyrion notices it.

[mormont]

I may be the only person that desperately wants Ashara to actually be dead.

Erm, no. You're not even the only person on this page who feels that way.

OK, fair enough... 20 years ago. By now, no one gives a crap anymore, and the majority of people who would recognize her are dead or not coming to Essos anytime soon. So why is she still so secretive? Why pretend to be a Septa? And why attract attention to Aegon's violet eyes by having another violet-eyed person running around with him?

I'm not saying Lemore = Ashara is wrong... I'm just still really skeptical and sick of secret identities.

I don't like the idea that she's Ashara. It seems like on this forum every single character is either a secret Targaryen, a warg, or Ashara Dayne and it baffles me.

:P