[ADwD Spoilers] Rank the Books Now

[Lord Barristan]

It's very difficult to rank, and I have a distinct feeling in a year or two I may feel differently. I'm not surprised there is a huge divide on the popularity of Dance. It (and Feast) are a departure from the wild ride that was an extremely plot-driven story up through Storm. Dance and Feast are a pause, and hopefully a temporary one; a climax without action would be kind of silly. But a pause, a break, is necessary.

Like I said, I don't dislike Dance and I get the need to slow the pace back a bit... but would it have killed him to show one battle? Whether it be Winterfell, Meereen, or the fall out at the wall we have 3 absurd cliffhangers to wait years for. The whole book was building to these two moments (Winterfell and Meereen) then right before we go to them, it ended. It would be like Clash without the Battle of the Blackwater

The being said, I trust GRRM and by leaving these cliffhangers, he's ensured we're in for a crazy ride in Winds

[gogorath]

Like I said, I don't dislike Dance and I get the need to slow the pace back a bit... but would it have killed him to show one battle? Whether it be Winterfell, Meereen, or the fall out at the wall we have 3 absurd cliffhangers to wait years for. The whole book was building to these two moments (Winterfell and Meereen) then right before we go to them, it ended. It would be like Clash without the Battle of the Blackwater

The being said, I trust GRRM and by leaving these cliffhangers, he's ensured we're in for a crazy ride in Winds

Dance has weaknesses, and the whole Stannis thing ranks at the top. Even the Barristan story in Mereen feels like a more natural stopping point than what happened in Winterfell. And while I'm not sure I agree, I understand the frustration with some of the cliffhangers -- even if the end of many stories are resolutions and cliffhangers. For example, Jon may not be dead, but I'm pretty sure his watch is done as Lord Commander.

Still, I do think a lot of the disappointment has to do with what people thought would happen. People didn't just want resolution, but they wanted to see the resolution they expected. Stannis and the Boltons battling. A giant battle in Mereen. Everyone meeting Dany. Dany winging to Westeros.

But isn't the unexpected -- and the departures from the comfort fantasy we've all read -- what attracted most of us to the story? I'm content to let it unfold. I'm not saying Dance is without issues, but I also have a feeling the prior expectations readers have are creating much of the dislike.

[iamthedave]

Dance has weaknesses, and the whole Stannis thing ranks at the top. Even the Barristan story in Mereen feels like a more natural stopping point than what happened in Winterfell. And while I'm not sure I agree, I understand the frustration with some of the cliffhangers -- even if the end of many stories are resolutions and cliffhangers. For example, Jon may not be dead, but I'm pretty sure his watch is done as Lord Commander.

Still, I do think a lot of the disappointment has to do with what people thought would happen. People didn't just want resolution, but they wanted to see the resolution they expected. Stannis and the Boltons battling. A giant battle in Mereen. Everyone meeting Dany. Dany winging to Westeros.

But isn't the unexpected -- and the departures from the comfort fantasy we've all read -- what attracted most of us to the story? I'm content to let it unfold. I'm not saying Dance is without issues, but I also have a feeling the prior expectations readers have are creating much of the dislike.

I don't think this is wholly true.

Much of the discontentment stems from the feeling that Martin is growing reliant on fantasy cliches instead of relying on what he does best. I won't rehash the various discussions on that topic since they're all over the place, but you're right that some is based on expectations thwarted. Others are based on it just not being as well-written. It's bloated, it has entire chapters that are almost superfluous, and characters who pop up, do nothing, then go away having done nothing, who are pretty much just included to let us know they're still alive.

However, when a lot of those expectations are 'expecting something to happen' that's not a good expectation to thwart.

Personally, I take it as a horrific sign of how far things have fallen that Jon Snow dies and in the space of a day three quarters of the board dismisses the idea he's actually dead, and can make not one but three different coherent arguments for why it's not true. And this is pretty much the story's main resolution. The death of one of the bespoke lead characters, in a series which began by doing that exact thing four books ago in a Game of Thrones, and sticking by its guns.

If this is the Empire Strikes Back, the equivalent would be Darth Vader's 'you know it to be true' speech occurring and the entire audience shouting in unison "Oh no we don't!"

Basically, I think there's a lot to dislike about Dance, there are flaws in almost every quarter. If you like the Meereen stuff that'll obviously raise it significantly, but I admit I find it hard to fathom how anyone can rate Dance 2nd on their list while Storm, Clash and GoT exist. There's no flaw present in those books that's not in Dance, and Dance has at least a half dozen new ones that they didn't. I'm not in any way saying people aren't entitled to their opinion, I just can't imagine how that opinion was formed, especially when AFFC seems almost universally the bottom book and Dance has so much in common with it. It's basically just AFFC part two with Jon, Dany and Tyrion in it.

I'm genuinely interested in that. For those who have Dance high on the list and Feast low, what is it you feel makes Dance so much better as a book?

[Lord Barristan]

Dance has weaknesses, and the whole Stannis thing ranks at the top. Even the Barristan story in Mereen feels like a more natural stopping point than what happened in Winterfell. And while I'm not sure I agree, I understand the frustration with some of the cliffhangers -- even if the end of many stories are resolutions and cliffhangers. For example, Jon may not be dead, but I'm pretty sure his watch is done as Lord Commander.

Still, I do think a lot of the disappointment has to do with what people thought would happen. People didn't just want resolution, but they wanted to see the resolution they expected. Stannis and the Boltons battling. A giant battle in Mereen. Everyone meeting Dany. Dany winging to Westeros.

But isn't the unexpected -- and the departures from the comfort fantasy we've all read -- what attracted most of us to the story? I'm content to let it unfold. I'm not saying Dance is without issues, but I also have a feeling the prior expectations readers have are creating much of the dislike.

I think this is partly true. I agree that GRRM is playing his cards close to his chest... but IMO TOO close.

Its clear George struggled writing these last two books, but I think he has things set up the way he wants them for the last two books, or at least I hope.... Thats the main thing here. If this book serves as the set up for the breathtaking last two books we all expect, it completely changes our opinion, but right now it just leaves us hanging with perhaps another 5 years before we see what happens

Despite my frustration when reading this book at times, I am not one of those people who thinks Martin can't regain his form from the first three books. There are parts of Dance that are just as good as anything in books 1-3... The Davos, Bran, and Reek/Theon chapters were amazing and I also liked Jon's chapters a lot, though many people I see didn't. I was also a massive fan of the Barristan POVs towards the end, this guy is just a bad ass. He's like the Ned Stark of Meeren, but doing it in a foreign country he knows next to nothing about, different language, his queen has abandoned him, theres plague going around, and they're about to come under attack from every where, and guy is training knights, calling out dragons, killing crazy pit fighters, arresting kings! Ned Stark couldn't even out smart Cersei Lannister! (Take that you Ned lovers)...

Basically if the whole Meereen plot had been from Barristan's POV I think I would have loved this book much more

[Brucolac]

Some of the POVs have maintained a high quality, but the books haven't. Based off his work in the last decade, there is no way to argue that GRRM has maintained interest and quality in this series, but I guess we will find out if he can reach the levels he achieved with his first works. If we see another delayed novel with TWoW, I think you should expect it to be on par with ADwD or even worse. Then again, he might be turn to publishing anything just to keep up with HBO, but that more than anything else might have resulted in ADwD. Fans were content to wait, but when there was money to be made, suddenly a book got published and it wasn't in the same class as his others-not even AFfC which got printed just to keep fan interest up.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. Storm of Swords

2. Game of Thrones

3. Dance with Dragons

4. Clash of Kings

5. Feast for Crows

[iamthedave]

Then again, he might be turn to publishing anything just to keep up with HBO, but that more than anything else might have resulted in ADwD. Fans were content to wait, but when there was money to be made, suddenly a book got published and it wasn't in the same class as his others-not even AFfC which got printed just to keep fan interest up.

There will be huge pressure on him to speed up, but actually that'd be a bad thing. He's made the tale too complex to rush it. If he doesn't think through every page this thing's going to turn into a disaster, and thinking takes time. He may have gotten things set up for the final two books, but I bet once he gets to writing that dozens of issues will come up that he has to think about, analyze, and fit into the tapestry. He has to work out what threads to resolve, who to kill off or get rid of somehow, and a whole host of other issues.

Most likely the HBO series will stall out after Dance.

[Revan Baratheon]

1

2

3

4

5

I actually liked 4th more than 3rd.only problem is that it has only half the characters...but otherwise good read. 5 is just atrocious

[gogorath]

I don't think this is wholly true.

Much of the discontentment stems from the feeling that Martin is growing reliant on fantasy cliches instead of relying on what he does best. I won't rehash the various discussions on that topic since they're all over the place, but you're right that some is based on expectations thwarted.

That's kind of my point. Some people are angry because things happen too much as they expect and some as they don't. I'm not saying you but you can see constantly comments, for example, of how angry people are that Tyrion didn't meet Dany in Mereen, that Dany left Mereen, that the Ironborn aren't there, that Dany failed... and some people were angry she was a Mary Sue. Mary Sues don't fail over the course of a book the way she has.

Every story has been written a thousand times -- you will never find something completely unique from a thematic standpoint. Before Dance, some of the bigger cliches were that Jon and Dany could do no wrong. Do people still feel the same way?

Others are based on it just not being as well-written. It's bloated, it has entire chapters that are almost superfluous, and characters who pop up, do nothing, then go away having done nothing, who are pretty much just included to let us know they're still alive.

It's very well-written. It's paced slower than Swords was. It's probably a bit longer than it needs to be, but your comments of superfluous chapters and characters who pop up and do nothing? I never felt that way. I was always learning something about the characters even if it wasn't plot driven. Only the Tyrion chapters ever felt at all like it wasn't moving plot-wise anyway. As for characters who do nothing? I'm not sure I see the complaint.

I found Quentyn's storyline interesting in and of itself. But people think it was useless. Of course people also are angry that those meeting Dany don't meet Dany. Except Quentyn did, and in her mistake, she throws away Dorne. So is the dislike here because Quentyn was really pointless? Or because Dany didn't grab the Dornishment, jump on her dragon and fly to Westeros?

I'm not saying it couldn't have used some editing in places, but many of these complaints are disguised as comments about "good writing" have their roots in "I think the plot goes this way but it's not." Also: someone needs to tell Victory Hugo, Leo Tolstoy, John Irving and Gunter Grasse about this whole "side plots that don't necessarily significantly advance my original main characters are bad writing" thing.

However, when a lot of those expectations are 'expecting something to happen' that's not a good expectation to thwart.

Something did happen. This is what I don't get. Most of you seem to be defining something happening as "Tyrion gets to Mereen, gets a dragon and he and Dany invade Westeros." But maybe that NEVER happens. Dany attempted to rule an occupied city, failed, learned to ride her dragon and abandoned her attempt to be a ruler of Mereen. Jon Snow attempted to steel the North against an invasion, failed miserably as a leader and was stabbed, presumably to a mortal death. Bran found the three-eyed crow and began a path to becoming a greenseer or whatever he will be. Cersei was shamed publicly and spectacularly but will get the last laugh over her uncle as he was killed, leaving her back in control. Will it change her? Make her more vicious? Arya continued on her path to losing her identity and becoming an assassin. Etc., etc.

The storylines that were slow to me were Tyrion's and Stannis/Asha.

Plenty happened.

Personally, I take it as a horrific sign of how far things have fallen that Jon Snow dies and in the space of a day three quarters of the board dismisses the idea he's actually dead, and can make not one but three different coherent arguments for why it's not true. And this is pretty much the story's main resolution. The death of one of the bespoke lead characters, in a series which began by doing that exact thing four books ago in a Game of Thrones, and sticking by its guns.

If this is the Empire Strikes Back, the equivalent would be Darth Vader's 'you know it to be true' speech occurring and the entire audience shouting in unison "Oh no we don't!"

No, since this was the first twist in the Stars Wars saga, it'd have been like it was done back when Ned was killed. I don't think this is an issue at all. Most of us don't think he is dead because he's such a main character, but there's no way to overcome this. It's a conclusion to his story as Lord Commander, I likely think, and the story's just great as a read even if you don't think he's dead. I'm not sure why the cliffhanger stop bothers people so much if it also bothers them that they don't believe the cliffhanger?

Basically, I think there's a lot to dislike about Dance, there are flaws in almost every quarter. If you like the Meereen stuff that'll obviously raise it significantly, but I admit I find it hard to fathom how anyone can rate Dance 2nd on their list while Storm, Clash and GoT exist. There's no flaw present in those books that's not in Dance, and Dance has at least a half dozen new ones that they didn't. I'm not in any way saying people aren't entitled to their opinion, I just can't imagine how that opinion was formed, especially when AFFC seems almost universally the bottom book and Dance has so much in common with it. It's basically just AFFC part two with Jon, Dany and Tyrion in it.

I'm genuinely interested in that. For those who have Dance high on the list and Feast low, what is it you feel makes Dance so much better as a book?

I said it above in my post, so I'll list them again:

1) The Reek storyline is probably my favorite of the entire series

2) Cersei's walk is probably my favorite chapter

3) I love the integration of modern issues into the storyline without seeming anachronistic and having our heroes be ridiculously competent. Dany's failure to occupy a hostile state with a foreign culture is a fantastic study in good intentions and uncompromisable positions gone wrong -- and I love that these are not Ned Stark-like rigidity problems, but she was doomed when she unilaterally killed the slave trade. It's fascinating to me. Contrast it to the "Medieval Hero of our story invents securitized monetary instruments" storyline in about half of the stuff put out these days or "My hero solves the problem of bureaucracy."

4) As someone charged with change management in a large organization, Jon's storyline of failing to account for his moronic underlings who are fighting the last war is ridiculously timeless and awesome. Again, it's not Ned Stark naivety, but it is a failure of someone in power nonetheless.

5) I really like the Quentyn storyline -- it's place within Dany's and in and of itself. He's the good, moral hero who if he tries hard enough ends up as meat on a stick. There is no force of will here, no natural charisma that wins through because they are so awesome. Bad decisions have consequences.

I'm reserving judgement on Stannis/Asha and Aegon's storylines as I feel like the big issue with Feast, Dance and probably the beginning of the next book is structure. Once they are all written, I think we will appreciate them all more.

I wasn't a huge fan of Tyrion's storyline and I dislike the Ironborn but those are stylistic things to me.

[Miryana]

Some of the POVs have maintained a high quality, but the books haven't.

That's a good way to phrase it. The Northern POVs in ADWD were great, but the logical climax was pushed to TWOW so that, as has been said before, it was like the book stopped before Ned's execution or the Blackwater instead of showing us those climaxes and their immediate aftermaths which set the stage for the next phase of the story. And the rest of the POVs...

1. ASOS

2. AGOT

3. ACOK

4. AFFC

5. ADWD

I like ADWD's Northern stories more than anything in AFFC, but the Tyrion and Dany chapters are more horrible than anything in AFFC. Even Brienne's much-maligned wanderings were more fun than spending time in the East and seeing two prominent characters become people I would hate to see in power when the series ends. I think I'd rather reread the AFFC ironborn chapters than Tyrion/Dany, and that's the sign of a desperate situation! ADWD highs were higher, but ending the story with Jon's maybe-assassination and before the battle of Winterfell felt like a missed opportunity and the East was dire, so its lows were lower as well. So at the moment, I'm ranking AFFC above it.

[iamthedave]

No, since this was the first twist in the Stars Wars saga, it'd have been like it was done back when Ned was killed. I don't think this is an issue at all. Most of us don't think he is dead because he's such a main character, but there's no way to overcome this. It's a conclusion to his story as Lord Commander, I likely think, and the story's just great as a read even if you don't think he's dead. I'm not sure why the cliffhanger stop bothers people so much if it also bothers them that they don't believe the cliffhanger?

Hardly. Empire Strikes back was the middle movie of a trilogy, Dance is one of the middle books in a septology. Your analogy would be that Empire is equivalent to GoT, which is silly.

Cliffhangers only work if they hold dramatic tension. That's the point of a cliffhanger, to create tension. It's also a style Martin abuses relentlessly and to increasingly dimishing returns. It's a pretty threadbare tactic and it's basically all Dance has. A bunch of cliffhangers when what it needed was at least one solid ending. Jon's death would have worked... if anyone believed it. He even pulled that in the middle of Tyrion's POV on the stone bridge. I'd be shocked if that held one moment of tension for anybody.

It's not that 'Jon is a main character so people don't believe it' it's that over the last couple of books that death has been shown to be considerably less final than it used to be with unCat, Beric, and various characters who were meant to be dead popping up and strong evidence on others being around as well, plus various strong indications that Jon is coming back from Melisandre.

[gogorath]

Hardly. Empire Strikes back was the middle movie of a trilogy, Dance is one of the middle books in a septology. Your analogy would be that Empire is equivalent to GoT, which is silly.

Silly? No, just a different argument than yours. Instead of based on time, it's based on the audience's exposure to twists and changes. Star Wars had no plot twists until then. It had one dramatic death, but there was no attempt to hide that Obi-Wan would not completely go away (he even says it to Vader and almost immediately speaks to Luke post-mortem).

If Star Wars had had a series of shocking instances and a history of questioning whether or not what was seen was really to be believed before the Vader reveal, then yes, you'd be right.

Cliffhangers only work if they hold dramatic tension. That's the point of a cliffhanger, to create tension. It's also a style Martin abuses relentlessly and to increasingly dimishing returns. It's a pretty threadbare tactic and it's basically all Dance has. A bunch of cliffhangers when what it needed was at least one solid ending. Jon's death would have worked... if anyone believed it. He even pulled that in the middle of Tyrion's POV on the stone bridge. I'd be shocked if that held one moment of tension for anybody.

It's not that 'Jon is a main character so people don't believe it' it's that over the last couple of books that death has been shown to be considerably less final than it used to be with unCat, Beric, and various characters who were meant to be dead popping up and strong evidence on others being around as well, plus various strong indications that Jon is coming back from Melisandre.

Did it ever occur to you that Martin doesn't really expect most people to be shocked by his chapter endings most of the time? I never thought Arya got killed by the Hound, either, but it still was a viable way to end the chapter. Same with Tyrion.

There's no doubt the number of resurrected/gotcha characters is high and that that leads to natural disbelief that a main character has died. Heck, I didn't know that Quentyn was dead for certain until the Barristan chapter. I don't disagree with you and it's almost my point -- do you really think Martin thinks most readers think Jon is dead? I just don't get why it's an unsatisfying resolution to the story at this point (then again, I don't understand the people who can't seem to get that we may never know how valid the religions are and aren't okay with that).

But this is my favorite quote:

It's a pretty threadbare tactic and it's basically all Dance has.

I honestly feel sorry for you if that's what you really think. I mean, honestly, why do you read books? Is it just to find out what happened? Can you not enjoy the story along the way.

I can honestly understand why some people prefer Swords or other books to this one. I can see why people are disappointed. It's a different style than before, and I think it requires a more detailed read to appreciate it (as opposed to bang-bang plotlines). I can see why it's not to some's taste.

But your quote above? I mean, honestly, I'm asking how you could like the previous books and so dislike Dance?

[iamthedave]

But your quote above? I mean, honestly, I'm asking how you could like the previous books and so dislike Dance?

It's threadbare because it's overused and in situations where the outcome is in no question. This was used much more effectively in previous books.

I read books for various reasons. It depends on the book.

I do have something of an inner critic due to my university years (studied English Literature, in which I spent most of my time criticizing and analyzing works of literature), and Dance just so happened to poke several of the spots that make my inner critic sit up and take note. I've read the first three books of the series three times through and loved them. And I can do without the high-horse, unnecessary pity, thank you.

So how can I read the previous ones? because I think they're much better than Dance (AFFC excepted).

[gogorath]

It's threadbare because it's overused and in situations where the outcome is in no question. This was used much more effectively in previous books.

I read books for various reasons. It depends on the book.

I do have something of an inner critic due to my university years (studied English Literature, in which I spent most of my time criticizing and analyzing works of literature), and Dance just so happened to poke several of the spots that make my inner critic sit up and take note. I've read the first three books of the series three times through and loved them. And I can do without the high-horse, unnecessary pity, thank you.

So how can I read the previous ones? because I think they're much better than Dance (AFFC excepted).

I really enjoyed it and I'd be bummed if I didn't, but okay.

I still don't see a whole lot of specifics of why you disliked it and I was curious. I've seen a lot of both valid and invalid criticism, at least to my mind, but I have yet to read anyone put forward a logicial, well thought out critique that pointed to the book having no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I was interested in seeing one.

[iamthedave]

I really enjoyed it and I'd be bummed if I didn't, but okay.

I still don't see a whole lot of specifics of why you disliked it and I was curious. I've seen a lot of both valid and invalid criticism, at least to my mind, but I have yet to read anyone put forward a logicial, well thought out critique that pointed to the book having no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I was interested in seeing one.

Oh I'm not saying it has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I have read it twice. It just didn't improve on re-reading, whereas the first three books have felt better each time and even Feast improved a little bit.

I champion Theon's plotline as being one of the best in the entire series, enough so that I'll almost certainly read the book again... but I'll skip several other entire plotlines, something I've only ever come close to doing once before in my readings (with Bran pre-Dance, for purely preferential reasons).

I don't think anyone on here thinks Dance is trash, just much lower in quality than the other books in the series.

[Original Ned's Bones]

Favorite to Least Favorite (loved them all):

1. ASOS

2. AGOT

3. ADWD

4. ACOK

5. AFFC

[Silverin]

1. ASoS

2. ACoK

3. AGoT

4. AFfC

5. ADwD.

[Petyr Middlefinger Baelish]

1. ASOS

2. AFFC

3. ACOK

4. AGOT

5. ADWD

[Hear Us Roar]

1) ASoS

2) ACoK

3) AGoT

4) ADwD

5) AFfC

[Snowmelter]

1: ASoS

2: AGoT

3: ADwD

4: ACoK

5: AFfC

This is sort of bs though because I really enjoy reading all of the books. Each one has surprises for me, even after several re-reads (and reading crackpot theories on this board, :P ). I think each book has a different theme and each theme doesn't appeal to all readers. Taken as a whole, I imagine this series will be the best one I have ever read.