[ADwD Spoilers] Ashara Dayne

[Ygritte]

If Ned had been thinking wistfully about Ashara Dayne throughout AGoT it would have removed a lot of the mystery surrounding Jon's parentage.

Yes, this. He never does. I think he probably was attracted to her at Harrenhal and thought "hey, she's pretty," but I don't think he had any lasting attachment to her. It was never more than a crush, if it was even that.

[MinDonner]

Benjen was a KID at Harrenhal. Even if he'd been (just barely) old enough to father a child, why on earth would Ashara have let some northern brat dishonour her, when she clearly had her pick of most of the realm's eligible bachelors?

[Ygritte]

Benjen was a KID at Harrenhal. Even if he'd been (just barely) old enough to father a child, why on earth would Ashara have let some northern brat dishonour her, when she clearly had her pick of most of the realm's eligible bachelors?

Right. I think Brandon was probably a dashing hottie, and one she might not have ever met before hence he'd have some novelty to him (as opposed to the KG men she would have seen every day while living with Elia).

[jack88]

I don't get it, who's talking about Benjen?

[Ygritte]

I don't get it, who's talking about Benjen?

Some have theorized Benjen was the one who slept with Ashara and then joined the NW as punishment or penance. I think he was too young to appeal to her, though.

[jack88]

Oh right. I thought a nice theory for that was Benjen helping Lyanna as KotLT don the armour, which led to Rhaegar, which led to etc etc.

Personally I never even considered Brandon and Ashara until after Dance, but now that I've thought about it, it makes too much sense.

[Talleyrand]

Is the meaning of 'dishonoured' being used here rape or just unmarital sex?

[Talleyrand]

Some have theorized Benjen was the one who slept with Ashara and then joined the NW as punishment or penance. I think he was too young to appeal to her, though.

Maybe he was very good at convincing people in his pre watch days

[Ygritte]

Oh right. I thought a nice theory for that was Benjen helping Lyanna as KotLT don the armour, which led to Rhaegar, which led to etc etc.

Yup, and it also seems like Lyanna may have been closer to Benjen than to her other brothers, and someone the other day was theorizing that Benjen was the one she told about her elopement and that she was cool with it. Then Benjen kept the secret, or just didn't have the chance to tell the rest of his family, and so Brandon and Rickard ended up charging into KL and getting killed.

[jack88]

Yup, and it also seems like Lyanna may have been closer to Benjen than to her other brothers, and someone the other day was theorizing that Benjen was the one she told about her elopement and that she was cool with it. Then Benjen kept the secret, or just didn't have the chance to tell the rest of his family, and so Brandon and Rickard ended up charging into KL and getting killed.

Sounds pretty sound to me, helped along by that scene with Bran watching Lyanna and Benjen fighting with swords and some other stuff that escapes me at the moment.

[Mark3]

Anyway, there seems to be very little evidence that points specifically to Brandon Stark (as opposed to Ned), but a fair bit of evidence for Ned. Not the least of which is Edric Dayne's story.

True! I had forgot about Edric Dayne's story. His aunt Allyria (who was Ashara's sister) says that Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal.

Also I think if Ashara was in love with Ned her suicide makes more sense: she falls in love with a guy but miscarries his child. Then a rebellion breaks out and their Houses are on opposite sides of the war, making a match impossible. Then that guy marries another woman to shore up a military alliance. Then he comes to visit her at Starfall after the war...to return the sword of her dead brother, whom he has just slain. Pretty brutal.

Also - Harwin states (in the same chapter where we get Edric's story) that at the Harrenhal tourney, Brandon was already betrothed to Catelyn. Wouldn't it have been a huge scandal if he had an affair with Ashara Dayne under the Tullys' noses (Harrenhal was their vassal) and the entire kingdom in attendance?

To me, the Brandon/Ashara pairing just doesn't track. Yes, Brandon appears to have been wild and possibly vain, but sleeping with another woman in full sight of his betrothed, her House, and the Kingdom, with a woman who his brother was smitten with, would have been beyond the pale. No-one seems to hold that much of a grudge against him (save Littlefinger). Barristan's wording is the only thing that even gives a moment's pause. But there's a lot more evidence pointing to a Ned/Ashara coupling.

[Ygritte]

Is the meaning of 'dishonoured' being used here rape or just unmarital sex?

It can be either in Medieval-landia. My guess is it's just unmarital sex.

Also - Harwin states (in the same chapter where we get Edric's story) that at the Harrenhal tourney, Brandon was already betrothed to Catelyn. Wouldn't it have been a huge scandal if he had an affair with Ashara Dayne under the Tullys' noses (Harrenhal was their vassal) and the entire kingdom in attendance?

To me, the Brandon/Ashara pairing just doesn't track. Yes, Brandon appears to have been wild and possibly vain, but sleeping with another woman in full sight of his betrothed, her House, and the Kingdom, with a woman who his brother was smitten with, would have been beyond the pale.

But I doubt they had sex out in the middle of the tourney field in front of the packed stands. ;) There would have been a lot of partying going on; not that hard to find a place to slip off to. I bet the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces have some iiinteresting stories to tell about that time period...

And it's also a big scandal to barge into the king's castle and demand the crown prince's life. Brandon was impulsive and I don't think he gave a shit about scandal.

[jack88]

IMO, if Ned had dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal, he would have asked for her hand then and there. Why not? They were young and apparently smitten and thought that Spring had come. They were also both unpledged and it seems like a good match, and doesn't someone directly say that Robb did what his father would have done, were he in Robb's position?

Seems like a pretty good callback to me. If Ned had knocked Ashara up with a bastard, he would have married her.

But there's no mention of this at all in the books and Ned doesn't think of Ashara at all, besides putting those gossip rumours down right at the start of GoT.

[Ygritte]

IMO, if Ned had dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal, he would have asked for her hand then and there. Why not? They were young and apparently smitten and thought that Spring had come. They were also both unpledged and it seems like a good match, and doesn't someone directly say that Robb did what his father would have done, were he in Robb's position?

Seems like a pretty good callback to me. If Ned had knocked Ashara up with a bastard, he would have married her.

But there's no mention of this at all in the books and Ned doesn't think of Ashara at all, besides putting those gossip rumours down right at the start of GoT.

Yup. And to me, wanting to protect the reputation of the woman his brother "ruined" is reason enough to want to quash the rumors. He liked her once, he thinks Brandon wronged her, he feels bad that he killed her brother and that she killed herself afterward, and all of that adds up to him not wanting anyone to whisper about her sex life.

ETA: And good call on the Robb comment, which may have been absolutely deliberate.

[MinDonner]

Plus, if Ned's too shy to even ask a girl to dance with him, is he really going to be bold enough to go canoodling in the bushes?

[jack88]

Yup. And to me, wanting to protect the reputation of the woman his brother "ruined" is reason enough to want to quash the rumors. He liked her once, he thinks Brandon wronged her, he feels bad that he killed her brother and that she killed herself afterward, and all of that adds up to him not wanting anyone to whisper about her sex life.

I think this is it pretty much. Whether or not Ned had actually done anything with Ashara was up in the air until Dance, but now we have Selmy saying that a "Stark" did actually dishonor her, and I don't think it was Ned.

[Rangers30]

Has anybody figured out why Maester Luwin requested that that be done?

After all, Maester Luwin knew the dead boys were fakes: he later said he’d known all along because the leg muscles were wrong on the Bran lookalike. Paraplegics don’t have muscular calves, you know.

So what was the wise maester’s motive here with his petition? It wasn’t what he said it was, that’s for sure. So what was it?

Maybe he just wanted the evidence buried. If he figured out the boys were alive from it someone else might do the same.

[NymStark]

Is the meaning of 'dishonoured' being used here rape or just unmarital sex?

This. Yesterday I was all about Brandon Stark being a douchebag based on what Lady Dustin had to say and of course Barristan talking about Stark dishonoring her. But I guess in a medieval society , unmarried sex and pregnant as a result of that could be dishonoring especially to a man who is in love with her, who probably wanted to marry her and couldnt. On an another note Lady Dustin has some serious issues, her young husband was not the only one who went to war and died...she creeps me out as much as Ramsay Bolton!

[Mark3]

But I doubt they had sex out in the middle of the tourney field in front of the packed stands. ;) There would have been a lot of partying going on; not that hard to find a place to slip off to. I bet the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces have some iiinteresting stories to tell about that time period...

Well, Barristan knows about it, so I'm guessing it would not have been the most discreet thing in the world, given his "skill" at deducing these sorts of things. Plus, wouldn't Catelyn have taken note of her fiance disappearing for a while? Wouldn't Ned have noticed Ashara and his brother's absence?

Also - Ashara likely would not have known she was pregnant right away. That takes a few weeks usually, no? Ned might have had every intention of marrying her, or asking for her hand, and perhaps he even gotten approval. However, once the war breaks out, the match is impossible - Ned is one of the leaders of the rebellion, and there is no way Dorne can oppose the crown. Plus, Ned needs the Riverlands and has to fulfill the marriage contract after Brandon's death.

But ultimately, why would Ashara's sister believe she and Ned were in love if they didn't have something going on?

[Ygritte]

Well, Barristan knows about it, so I'm guessing it would not have been the most discreet thing in the world, given his "skill" at deducing these sorts of things. Plus, wouldn't Catelyn have taken note of her fiance disappearing for a while? Wouldn't Ned have noticed Ashara and his brother's absence?

Barristan was in love with her and probably hyper-aware of what she was doing--and possibly was told about it in confidence later. Catelyn was likely busy doing other things, like fending off Baelish. ;) I don't get the idea she and Brandon were close enough to have been hanging out together at the tournament, engaged or not.

Also - Ashara likely would not have known she was pregnant right away. That takes a few weeks usually, no? Ned might have had every intention of marrying her, or asking for her hand, and perhaps he even gotten approval. However, once the war breaks out, the match is impossible - Ned is one of the leaders of the rebellion, and there is no way Dorne can oppose the crown. Plus, Ned needs the Riverlands and has to fulfill the marriage contract after Brandon's death.

At that point, he says "Sorry, Hoster, I'm already betrothed" and Cat marries Benjen. Or if Benjen's already at the Wall, then Cat doesn't marry any Stark and maybe the alliance goes poof and we have a totally different story. Ned has never been one to break a promise just because it's politically smart to do so. He's the epitome of the opposite, actually.

But ultimately, why would Ashara's sister believe she and Ned were in love if they didn't have something going on?

*shrug* Who knows? Maybe because Ashara killed herself right after Ned came to Starfall, but I don't really know.