[ADwD Spoilers] Ashara Dayne

[Maester Cressan]

Brandon. It fits perfectly everything... It

Especially the grief part.

I suppose it could mean grieving for Ned's marriage to Catlyen, but it could also mean Brandon's death.

So this is the way it would go:

Brandon and Ashara have a fling.

Brandon gets himself and father well and truly killed. Grief One.

Ned kills her brother, and delivers her his sword. (Also arrives carrying Jon, who is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son). Grief Two.

Ashara has her child stillborn (perhaps caused by the bad news?) Grief Three. (This could plausibly happen before her brother's death but I think it happened around the same time for a reason explained below.)

Ashara kills herself for grief.

That actually can make sense. Grief for one person dying ought not drive a person to suicide, but dishonor, and grief piled upon grief. I could see that driving a young girl to suicide.

This would explain why it was rumored that Jon was Ashara and Ned's son. After all, Ashara has a baby and then dies when Ned appears. Ned then comes home with a bastard. It fits the rumors perfectly.

But why was Ned so fierce in ensuring there were no rumors about Ashara Dayne?

[jack88]

Especially the grief part.

I suppose it could mean grieving for Ned's marriage to Catlyen, but it could also mean Brandon's death.

So this is the way it would go:

Brandon and Ashara have a fling.

Brandon gets himself and father well and truly killed. Grief One.

Ned kills her brother, and delivers her his sword. (Also arrives carrying Jon, who is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son). Grief Two.

Ashara has her child stillborn (perhaps caused by the bad news?) Grief Three. (This could plausibly happen before her brother's death but I think it happened around the same time for a reason explained below.)

Ashara kills herself for grief.

That actually can make sense. Grief for one person dying ought not drive a person to suicide, but dishonor, and grief piled upon grief. I could see that driving a young girl to suicide.

This would explain why it was rumored that Jon was Ashara and Ned's son. After all, Ashara has a baby and then dies when Ned appears. Ned then comes home with a bastard. It fits the rumors perfectly.

But why was Ned so fierce in ensuring there were no rumors about Ashara Dayne?

It really depends on how far you wanna stretch it. On the one hand, Ned probably feels pretty terrible about her killing herself, especially considering he killed her brother and (possibly) his own brother "dishonored" her.

On the other hand, if Ned did actually have help from the Daynes (more specifically, their wetnurse Wylla) about spreading rumors that Jon was actually his and Wylla's bastard, he probably doesn't want anyone digging around any of it whatsoever.

I think we're coming to a pretty good, solid theory on the whole Ned/Ashara/R+L=J/Wylla thing. I'm really excited to find out the truth, its like some age old mystery now.

[Ygritte]

It really depends on how far you wanna stretch it. On the one hand, Ned probably feels pretty terrible about her killing herself, especially considering he killed her brother and (possibly) his own brother "dishonored" her.

On the other hand, if Ned did actually have help from the Daynes (more specifically, their wetnurse Wylla) about spreading rumors that Jon was actually his and Wylla's bastard, he probably doesn't want anyone digging around any of it whatsoever.

I think we're coming to a pretty good, solid theory on the whole Ned/Ashara/R+L=J/Wylla thing. I'm really excited to find out the truth, its like some age old mystery now.

The bolded is a really good point. Probably most of Ned's motivation is that he doesn't want to see Ashara--whom he at least briefly admired and who has suffered a lot at the hands of the Starks--whispered about as a slut/whore. But you're right, he probably doesn't want anyone thinking too hard about Ashara's baby either. Right now people are kind of muddled about exactly who was born when and where; the war was on and these births were in remote places. But if someone really starts thinking about Ashara, they might start counting months and realize Ashara's kid couldn't be Jon because it would be too old.

[jack88]

Really, Ned is so incredibly tight lipped about the whole Ashara thing. We're in his head for half? a book and he almost never thinks about it. You could say that its because the finer details of the whole scheme hadn't been worked out at that point, but he really gives us no hints about anything whatsoever, except it was the one time he put his foot down and told his lord wife to STFU.

[regreke]

I think the key to this is Barristan use of simply the name Stark when thinking of these events. Who would Barristan think of as the Stark at Winterfell. Both Brandon and Ned are from a younger generation so I believe Barristan would always think of Rickard as Stark.

[cteresa]

But why was Ned so fierce in ensuring there were no rumors about Ashara Dayne?

Maybe just wishing to protect her honor. Particularly if he sees her as innocent or taken advantage of by his brother.

Regreke, a very good point.

[cteresa]

But why was Ned so fierce in ensuring there were no rumors about Ashara Dayne?

Maybe just wishing to protect her honor. Particularly if he sees her as innocent or taken advantage of by his brother.

Regreke, a very good point.

[Été]

I think the key to this is Barristan use of simply the name Stark when thinking of these events. Who would Barristan think of as the Stark at Winterfell. Both Brandon and Ned are from a younger generation so I believe Barristan would always think of Rickard as Stark.

Has it ever been confirmed that Rickard Stark was at Harrenhal?

Also there seems to be some debate over when Ashara's child was conceived. Barristan's comment about her being "dishonoured" at Harrenhal suggests it was an isolated incident so I assumed she got pregnant then. Unclear as the timeline is, that would mean Ashara's daughter was probably born a few months into the rebellion, so up to a year passed before her suicide.

[Frisco]

Brandon's death, miscarriage, and now a dead brother.

Even if the miscarriage was upwards of a year before Ned came to Starfall with Dawn and the news, I think he brother's death would still be enough to be the final straw.

Did Starfall enter the Rebellion? And for which side?

[Été]

Brandon's death, miscarriage, and now a dead brother.

Even if the miscarriage was upwards of a year before Ned came to Starfall with Dawn and the news, I think he brother's death would still be enough to be the final straw.

Did Starfall enter the Rebellion? And for which side?

I don't think any Dayne involvement in the Rebellion (on either side) has been mentioned, and we still know nothing about Edric's father. However, they are a Dornish house and must have been quite close to the Martells for Ashara to have served Elia at KL. That plus Arthur's place in the KG makes it likely the Daynes were Targ loyalists, but nothing in the text confirms that.

[Dmitrii]

If this is Brandon Stark?

What's in it for the plot of the book?

Brandon Stark dead. And he is dead before the birth of a dead daughter, Ashara, like his father Regreke.

We have three sources of which are possible, Ned Stark's relationship with Ashara Dayne.

Different sources.

This is Serseya.

This is a family Ashara.

It is the soldiers of Stark.

I do not see the story of history if it's Brandon or Regreke.

P.S.

I apologize for my English.

He is not my native language.

I'm just learning.

[Maia]

Brandon's death, miscarriage, and now a dead brother.

Indeed. And maybe she was also somehow instrumental in Ned finding ToJ. After all, few seemed to know where it was.

[RobMRobM]

In the spirit of Occam, I'm favoring the simplest theory that the stillborn baby is Ned's. To me, it makes perfect sense. As stated by Meera and Edric Dayne, Ned and Ashara met and fell in love at Harrenhall. Suitable match for both, probably consummated in the excitement of the tournament. However, before Ned could get Father's approval and travel to KL and then Dorne to propose, war breaks out, A and N are on opposite sides, and Ned has to marry Cat in sister's place. A has their stillborn baby in privacy back in Dorne. Ned wins the rebellion, sees Lyanna, gets her baby and then has to figure out what to do. He heads to Starfall, both because he has to return sword and because he trusts and loves A to help him. A gets the three blows in a row - Ned married, her brother dead, and Ned needing help and expressing their love but unable to act on it because of his honor obligation to Cat. A helps Ned and then kills herself. Ned has multiple reasons to protect both Jon and A - Jon because of Targ blood; A because he loved her and she bore him a stillborn child...but not Jon. Truly, a tragic love story, leavened only by the growing love over time between Ned and Cat.

Also, since things here come in threes, this gives us three matches of Ice and Fire: Ned-Ashara (as she has Targ blood), Lyanna-Rheagar and, eventually, Jon-Dany.

[Dmitrii]

Dornish was on the side of the Targ.

[RobMRobM]

Has it ever been confirmed that Rickard Stark was at Harrenhal?

Also there seems to be some debate over when Ashara's child was conceived. Barristan's comment about her being "dishonoured" at Harrenhal suggests it was an isolated incident so I assumed she got pregnant then. Unclear as the timeline is, that would mean Ashara's daughter was probably born a few months into the rebellion, so up to a year passed before her suicide.

Given that Ned has been the one and only Stark for nearly 15 years, he's the leading candidate.

[Dmitrii]

If this is Ned and Ashara.

Then we have a parallel.

This is Robb and Gien.

Ned took the path of expediency and won.

Robb on the path of love and lost.

[Été]

If this is Ned and Ashara.

Then we have a parallel.

This is Robb and Gien.

Ned took the path of expediency and won.

Robb on the path of love and lost.

That's an interesting point. Robb's marriage to Jeyne is described as 'what Ned would have done' in the same position. Maybe Ned did find himself in a similar situation after Harrenhal, but Brandon's death not long after meant he wound up marrying Cat instead.

His indiscretion with Ashara becomes the sole blot on his legendary honour, and he would have come face to face with her consequent suffering when he returned Dawn to Starfall at the end of the war. Presumably he had the newborn Jon in tow (hence Wylla's involvement) and I suspect Ashara to have had a hand in Ned's decision about what to do with Jon. So when he was getting angsty over his unspecified "promise" to Lyanna, part of his guilt and shame relates to Ashara.

[Ser Daven Lannister]

What if Barristan was wrong? What if Ashara Dayne found Ned to her liking and initiated the affair? That's what I think happened. Also, Ryswell's description of Brandon sounds, to me, like something that would come from a woman scorned. I'm taking it with a grain of salt. We have other evidence to the contrary (he sets up Ned with Ashara, and doesn't kill LF).

[dragoon1]

I think Ned and Ashara were a hot item.

Brandon dies.

Ned marries Caetlyn because of duty.

Ashara throws herself to her death when Ned tells her.

Simple

[nategator]

What if Barristan was wrong? What if Ashara Dayne found Ned to her liking and initiated the affair? That's what I think happened. Also, Ryswell's description of Brandon sounds, to me, like something that would come from a woman scorned. I'm taking it with a grain of salt. We have other evidence to the contrary (he sets up Ned with Ashara, and doesn't kill LF).

It wouldn't matter in Barristan's eyes if Ashara initiated the relationship or not. As an unwed maiden having sex without her father's permission, she would be dishonored regardless of her consent, which she could not technically give as she was legally chattel.

Different rules in medieval settings.