[ADwD Spoilers] Ashara Dayne

[Fat Walda's Paramour]

Could Ser Barristan have used "Stark" in reference to Ned because Ned was the Lord Stark that Barristan was probably most familiar with? I think Ser Barristan wasn't rude to Ned in King's Landing because 1) Ned was the King's Hand, and 2) Barristan is as close to a "true" knight as one might find in Westeros. He'd still be courteous, even if he disliked the person

Yeah, but Barristan goes out of his way to defend Ned to Daenarys, and even looks like he wants to go further with his defense/is holding something back when Dany shuts him down. I'm sure he was polite to Jaime and Tywin, but now that he's away he'll bad mouth them until he's blue in the face.

I get the impression he respects Ned, perhaps because he knows Ned loved Ashara before his own brother cock-blocked him and dishonor her. And maybe... just maybe... he suspects there's something to the R+L=J theory. I mean, he was a Kingsguardsman and close to Rhaegar. If he had at least an inkling that Lyanna was pregnant and then heard tales of Ned bring a bastard back from Dorne, then he could very well be at least suspicious and if he does believe that, he'd certainly respect Ned a lot.

On the other hand, Brandon seems a lot more like the kind of guy that a young girl would have a wild fling with. Young, handsome, overconfident vs mousy, self-righteous Ned. It makes sense.

Perhaps Brandon used Ned as kind of a set-up to talk to Ashara, like "Hi, I'm a dashing wild wolf, please dance with my shy little brother. He's just a boy, he'll love it. Yes, I'm a great older brother... and not shy at all," then he winks his eyebrows and howls at the moon.

Plus, I like the added family drama that comes with Ashara having an affair with Brandon. It makes for a better story back at Harrenhal, IMO, especially with all the family drama that would presumably result between Brandon and Ned. Angry words are spoken between them, and then Lyanna disappears with Rhaegar....

Later Ned gets all icy and weird when the subject of Ashara comes up, both because of his guilt over the stuff left unsaid between him and Brandon and because of whatever baby-switching mischief he and Ashara got themselves up to before Ned returned to Winterfell.

Icy because Catlyn is questioning his honor when it was his brother, who was promised to Catlyn, by the way, who dishonored Ashara, a woman Ned was very smitten with. And Ned got the blame. And the reason any of this is coming out? Because his sister broke off her engagement and ran away with a Prince, started a war that got Ned's brother and father dead, had a baby, and now Ned has to pretend it's his bastard.

The think I like about this idea is the pattern it heightens in Ned's life about Ned taking on the dishonors of others to protect his family (Lyanna, now Brandon, false testimony so his kids could live that resulted in his beheading). Poor guy.

And by the way, a little off topic, but part of me wished/still wishes that Barristan has tons of knowledge about Lyanna and the Starks that would wrap up all the theories we've been bouncing around and he'd just share all of it with Dany during a slow chapter. Not that easy I suppose

[Pipsmom]

I'm surprised there hasn't been more speculation along the "x + Ashara = Daenerys" line. So Ned shows up at Starfall to return Dawn and picks up a secret baby Daenerys, they tell everyone the child is a stillborn, and then it's easy to swap Daenerys in when Rhaella dies in childborth at Dragonstone. Or even later, across the Narrow Sea.

It almost makes more sense than Aerys II being Daenerys's father. Aerys and Rhaella almost never saw each other later in their marriage, let alone had sex - only when Aerys burned someone alive, we learn. It's entirely possible that on the night Rickard Stark was burned, Daenerys was conceived. (Btw the way, the wiki lists different death years for Rickard and Brandon, so one is obviously wrong). But is that enough time for Daenerys to born immediately after the rebellion on Dragonstone? Rhaella was still pregnant during the Battle of the Trident and the subsequent flight to Dragonstone.

Good catch on the wiki discrepancy for Brandon and Rickard Stark's year of death. Somebody should fix that.

Aside from the timing of Ashara's pregnancy, I still have a few questions

1. Even assuming Rhaella's daughter died along with her on Dragonstone, why would anyone (Varys) go to the trouble of replacing her with a fake Daenerys? As a female child she would have had no particular value, it would have only been important for Viserys, as only surviving heir, to survive.

2. What would Eddard's motive be to participate in this baby swapping venture? He just helped Robert topple the Targaryens. In addition he had his own baby issues to deal with at the time. He had to get the baby Jon Snow from Starfall back to Winterfell. What a journey that must have been.

But as I always say anything is possible.

[JayDubya]

I've always loved his little reveal.

"You have a House?" That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. "Who are you?"

"My lady?" Ned looked embarrassed. "I'm Edric Dayne, the . . . the Lord of Starfall."

BANTER. Do we know where exactly Gerold fits into the family tree? Darkstar is the lamest sobriquet ever.

I continue to be perplexed at how the Lord of Starfall would name his son (Edric 'Ned' Dayne) after the man who killed his younger brother (Arthur) and drove his sister to suicide.

[Pipsmom]

I continue to be perplexed at how the Lord of Starfall would name his son (Edric 'Ned' Dayne) after the man who killed his younger brother (Arthur) and drove his sister to suicide.

Since his name was Edric, not Eddard, I wouldn't consider he was named after Eddard Stark and perhaps Dondarrion gave him the nickname Ned.

[Eddard Stark]

The Daynes aren't Valyrian according to GRRM.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Entry/2210/

[Michael Jon Snow]

See, now when I read that I didn't connect the dishonor at Harrenhal and the pregnancy. I assumed that the dishonor at Harrenhal was falling in love with Ned and then Ned marrying Cat a short time later.

I figured that the pregnancy came later. If she had gotten pregnant at Harrenhal, he miscarriage would have been at some time less than 9 months later. Meanwhile, some time after Harrenhal, Rhaegar takes off with Layanna, the whole drama with Brandon and Rickard (Takes some months for Rickard to arrive.) Then more time passes and Ned marries Cat and spends half a month in Riverrun, and gets Cat pregnant before heading south. 9 months later (give or take) Ned reaches the Tower of Joy. Then the trip to Starfall to return the sword. It would seem to me that roughly 2 years elapses between Harrenhal and when Ned brings Dawn to Ashara. In the Wiki, the Tourney at Harrenhal was in 282 and the ToJ was in 284, so that matches.

If the miscarriage that Ashara is mourning is from Harrenhal, it would have happened at least 6 months and as many as 18 months before Ned brings her Dawn, so she survives for at least that long, does Barristan's "She threw hersel from a tower soon after" really jive?

I read Barristan's thoughts to mean that Ashara got pregnant shortly after Ned's wedding, and miscarried just before Ned arrived with Dawn.

Maybe I am wrong?

[Markus]

Regarding the timeline, the year of the false spring was one or two years before the start of Robert's Rebellion. The Sack of King's Landing was after the war had raged for close to a year. We also know that Jaime was 15 years old at the tourney of Harrenhal and 17 years old when he killed Aerys so Harrenhal was at least 2 and not more than 3 years before the Sack. Aegon was about a year old when he was murdered and Dany was born nearly nine months after the Sack. Jon was born about the time of the Sack. Young Griff is 15 to 18 years old.

Some conclusions:

When Ashara conceived from being dishonored at Harrenhal then her child would have been dead for more than a year when Aegon was murdered if it was truly stillborn. If the child lived it would be about 18 and could be YG as far as age is concerned but neither Ashara, Brandon nor Ned had blond/silver hair like YG is supposed to have.

When Ashara conceived at Harrenhal her child would be too old to be Jon.

As to who dishonored and supposedly fathered Ashara's child, let's look at what Selmy thinks again:

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. ... If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Selmy seems to think that _mad grief_ for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal may well have contributed to her suicide and that she was attracted to "Stark". More, her grief for her crush/lover seems to be somewhat equated to the losing of her child by Selmy.

It doesn't seem likely to me that Ashara would grieve for anybody but the man she was attracted to -- Stark -- which would make him also the one who had dishonored her in Selmy's mind. Given the context of a child being born and Ashara grieving for whoever dishonored her there seems to have been a consensual sexual encounter and not rape.

The way Selmy's thoughts are framed -- mad grief for the death of her child and whatever happened to her love interest -- also lends itself more to Ashara grieving for the death of her love interest than to him being married to somebody else, which would point to Brandon and not Ned.

ETA: It just strikes me that Selmy didn't think of the death of Ashara's brother as a possible cause of her supposed suicide. I can well see why the death of a lover may seem more important to Ashara in Selmy's mind than the death of a brother. I have a more difficult time seeing Ned being married to Cat as more important to Ashara than her brother's death in Selmy's mind though. Of course, I assume that Selmy believes Ashara committed suicide after her brother's death, which seems to be suggested by other accounts.

[usul]

agreed

when Ned was in KL with Barristan, Barry didn't seem to have any problem of dishonor with Ned ... that would point Brandon ... or Benjen !

[Cairodin]

I'd like to add that Barristan also mentions how, in his experience, teenage girls will always "choose fire over mud." He's talking directly about Dany's choice between Quentyn and Daario, but the implication is that Ashara made this choice as well. Does anyone think Ned is the fire to Barristan's mud? It seems much more reasonable to think of Ned (and Barristan, too, I guess) as the mud to Brandon's fire.

Sorry if this point has been brought up before; I admit that I haven't read the whole thread. Still, it's worth considering, since it suggests all the more strongly that Ashara and Brandon hooked up at the Whents' Tourney.

If that's really the case, then we now know that her lover, her brother and her child all died during or leading up to Robert's Rebellion. That provides a lot of justification for her suicide, if that's what really happened to her.

[cteresa]

About the timing of Robert´s Rebellion being during winter, keep in mind that seasons are supposedly shorter than the many years we have now. This is the longest summer, and it will be a very long winter (OTOH, there are theories winters have been longer and colder and worse since dragons went extinct, so mayb... Or nah, GRRM will not give up the long awful winte thing).

The year of false spring might just be a spring which looks hotter and more glorious but then followed by some cold wintery like time (months rather than years) before spring gets again. If sowed crops get ruined, that would be noticeable. But let´s keep in mind, it´s perhaps better to not think too much about the realism and mechanics of these long-seasons.

Dany was born during a summer storm, hence 9 months after the sack of KL was summer. So war was mostly during the the spring.

And Dany can not be Ashara´s daughter, she was born in Dragonstone, when not a lot of people but a handful of Targaryen loyalists were around, and she is much too young. I think there is something provoking to the timing of her birth, but maybe it was *just* Aerys moved by the madness to raping her mother on her last night on KL.

I think GRRM implies that Ashara does look like Dany and vice versa, eye color, but not just that "he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter..." implies ressemblance. And if Daynes are not a family of known Valyrian origin and they show valyrian coloring, then it´s not a stretch IMO to think maybe they got some bloody from a Targaryen branch (Aegon the Unworthy being always willing).

[Été]

I continue to be perplexed at how the Lord of Starfall would name his son (Edric 'Ned' Dayne) after the man who killed his younger brother (Arthur) and drove his sister to suicide.

We have another Eddard (a dolorous one) in the series, and a couple of Edrics. If the heir of Starfall was named for our late Lord Stark, why call him Edric instead of Eddard? They're not the same name, even if they end up with the same diminutive.

In any case, they're relatively common names. And who's to say there haven't been loads of Edric Daynes, the same way there have been several Brandon Starks?

[Pipsmom]

If the miscarriage that Ashara is mourning is from Harrenhal, it would have happened at least 6 months and as many as 18 months before Ned brings her Dawn, so she survives for at least that long, does Barristan's "She threw hersel from a tower soon after" really jive?

That assumes Ashara was still at Starfall when Ned arrived. We know he went to Starfall from the Tower of Joy (probably with a newborn Jon Snow in tow) but we are speculating that he gave Dawn and news of Arthur's death to Ashara directly. I believe she was already gone. Since I'm a Charter Member of Team Lemore=Ashara, I think she had already fled with baby Aegon when Ned arrived. If that isn't true she could have already flung herself into the sea when he arrived so the timeline of 6-18 months doesn't have to be firmly adhered to.

I'm also reminded of Edric Dayne telling Arya that Ashara was dead (or at least gone from Starfall) before he was born. He and Jon Snow were milk brothers so that seems to indicate her departure occurred prior to Ned's arrival.

[Markus]

I'm also reminded of Edric Dayne telling Arya that Ashara was dead (or at least gone from Starfall) before he was born. He and Jon Snow were milk brothers so that seems to indicate her departure occurred prior to Ned's arrival.

Milk brothers means having the same wet nurse but not necessarily at the same time. Edric Dayne is 12 in ASoS whereas Jon is 16. So this doesn't say anything about the time of Ashara's suicide.

[Auska]

So he's saying that Wylla was Jon's mother but Edric's wetnurse, and since she nursed both Edric and her own supposed son, that makes them "milk brothers."

That's what Edric thinks, but that doesn't make it true (or untrue, for that matter). He himself would certainly not be in a position to know whether Wylla is Jon's real mother.

…

Ashara's loss of child could also have been having to give hers away. Many people wouldn't know she was pregnant to begin with, and many who did might assume/be told the child didn't live. When did Jon get to Winterfell again?

[Jon AS]

I think GRRM implies that Ashara does look like Dany and vice versa, eye color, but not just that "he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter..." implies ressemblance. And if Daynes are not a family of known Valyrian origin and they show valyrian coloring, then it´s not a stretch IMO to think maybe they got some bloody from a Targaryen branch (Aegon the Unworthy being always willing).

I think the timeline doesn't really work for anyone but "Aegon" to be Ashara's. Unless her child is a character we haven't met yet I don't see it factoring into things.

Personally I don't make more of Barristan's thoughts on the Dany-Ashara resemblance than I do of Mormont comparing her to his wife. One focusses on the eyes, the other on the hair. In either case they are comparing her to women they haven't seen in years (decades even in Barristan's case) who were beautiful and much closer to her age then the men were.

[illuminatia]

Why wasn't Ashara married off as soon as the pregnancy was discovered? That was how these situations were usually solved. Find a noble willing to raise a bastard as his own in exchange for land/title/gold/connections... In a patriarchal society fixated on virginity and bloodlines a high born woman just did not raise a bastard herself.

What if for instance Aerys was the father? What if the man who dishonored her and the man she turned to (Stark) were two different men - if she was raped by one while in love with another? And that baby too would have been a Targaryen heir needing to disappear, fast.

[Nymeriah]

I dont like the idea of Brandon being a badguy. Meera's story suggests Brandon was the perfect "wingman" older brother to Ned.

While Brandon was alive, Ned wasnt dishonoring Catelyn either. Its not the classiest for two unmarried people to hook up (hense Barristan's bitterness), but its not so bad that Ned couldnt have done it.

[Jem]

How does Barristan know that Ashara was 'dishonoured' at Harrenhal? Was he spying on her bedchamber? If she was dishonoured by one of the royal family ie Aerys or Rhaegar, then a member of the Kingsguard is likely to know. Barristan believes that Ashara was grieving over the man who dishonoured her, implying that she loved him, which makes me think that it was Rhaegar rather than Aerys.

Maybe Ashara was in love with Rhaegar and believed that he would take her as a second wife. But when Rhaegar presented Lyanna with the crown of love and beauty, Ashara felt that she had been thrown over and taken advantage of.

A few months later Rhaegar runs of with Lyanna and a pregnant Ashara turns to Stark, as in Brandan, the strong firey one. Ashara knows she is pregnant with Rhaegar's child, she feels spurned by him and turns to her friend Brandan Stark who she knows is in love with her.

Brandan, rash and bold, runs off to the Red Keep to confront Rhaegar but meets with Aerys instead. Brandan has two complaints: Rhaegar has run off with his sister Lyanna and Rhaegar has knocked up his good friend Ashara. We all know how badly that confrontation ends.

So why does Rhaegar run around impregnating noble women left and right? Maybe he knows his end is nigh and he is desperate to sire his PtwP.

Elia and Ashara would have been pregnant at approximately the same time. I am imagining that the two women were still friends and companions despite being pregnant by the same man - the man who has now run off with a third woman. I am also imagining that even thought they are both pissed off with Rhaegar on a personal level, they are still loyal to him and both believe in is PtwP prophecy.

Rhaegar fears for his potential PtwP. Not knowing which woman will be the mother of the PtwP, Rhaegar makes plans to hide or disguise his babies. Lyanna, we know, he took to the remote ToJ. Aegon was swapped with a common baby. Ashara's baby was reported to be stillborn, and a girl besides, so of no importance. However, I believe that this was not the case. Both Ashara's son and Elia's son were taken by Ashara and Wylla the wet nures to Starfall, a castle that is remote and far from the war.

Rhaegar loses the war and loses his life. The two Targ babies are in grave danger. Ashara plans to flee into exile with the boys, to Jon Connington. Before she leaves, however, along comes old Ned Stark with another baby boy tucked under his arm. This is Rhaegar's son with Lyanna, says Ned Stark, what am I going to do with him? Well you can't leave him here, says Ashara, I've already got two of them to deal with. Rhaegar thought one of them was the PtwP, continues Ashara, probably Aegon he's the legitimate one, but you better keep Lyanna's son safe and hidden just in case.

So off goes Ned Stark, back to Winterfell with little Jon Snow in tow. And off goes Ashara Dayne, faking her suicide and heading off to meet up with Jon C. Unfortunatly at some stage, baby Aegon dies, whoops. Varys and the other pro-Targs who helped organise the babies' exile wont be too happy with that. Just as well Ashara has another baby up her sleeve, her own son with Rhaegar. Ashara and Jon call the living baby Aegon, and no one is the wiser. Ashara becomes Septa Lemore, Jon C becomes Griff, and fake Aegon becomes Young Griff.

[unJon]

The Daynes aren't Valyrian according to GRRM.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Entry/2210/

And that's why Young Griffaegon is the mummer's dragon. B + A = YG ;)

[corbon]

Why wasn't Ashara married off as soon as the pregnancy was discovered? That was how these situations were usually solved. Find a noble willing to raise a bastard as his own in exchange for land/title/gold/connections... In a patriarchal society fixated on virginity and bloodlines a high born woman just did not raise a bastard herself.

The Daynes are too old and noble a House to marry 'down', and not wealthy or prominent enough to 'pay off' anyone 'good enough'.

Another common solution is for the woman to take a religious vocation.