[ADwD Spoilers] Ashara Dayne

[AutumnEvenings]

I'm unsure of the time-line (any help would be great!), but it seems likely to me that Ashara Dayne's child is one of the Aegons--either the one with the smashed head or the live one, whichever story we believe. And she killed herself because the child was taken from her, or was killed because it needed to stay a secret.

[Été]

Ran, Eté, sorry, it was sarcasm from my part. I can not speak for Jon either, but I got the feeling a few of his last posts were as well sarcastic (Edric being Aerys´s zombie love child and all).

Though with sarcasm I was trying to get a point, we are told Ashara looks like Dany (vice versa more correct probably). That for me is a more interesting tidbit and reliable source for speculation than septa Lemore. No, I do not know what it means. But if we are going to look for Targaryen descendant and lots cousins, well, the Daynes do look interesting, no?

Good point. To have a resemblance between Dany and Ashara, she must have looked quite stereotypically Valyrian after all.

I want to know know who Aegon and his sons married. GRRM drops Targ factoids all over the place but has kept mum on this one, bar saying they married for love. I want to know which houses their consorts came from. Bet one of them was House Darry, which cemented their loyalty.

(I got that you were kidding earlier btw :P)

I'm unsure of the time-line (any help would be great!), but it seems likely to me that Ashara Dayne's child is one of the Aegons--either the one with the smashed head or the live one, whichever story we believe. And she killed herself because the child was taken from her, or was killed because it needed to stay a secret.

If Varys swapped the baby Elia had with a lowborn one and sent Ashara's child off to Essos, where is the real Aegon?

I think Aegon must be a good bit older than Ashara's child anyway, because Rhaegar was present at the birth. Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna shortly after Harrenhal, where we think Ashara fell pregnant.

[cteresa]

(I got that you were kidding earlier btw :P)

Thank goodness! I was getting worried. Sarcasm I *should* rein in, but I love rhetorical questions and was getting worried :)

And yes, GRRM is hiding many many things about house Targaryen history. Which you know is fun for some of us, or we would not be doing this for years. But IMO there has to be a point in the series where things start to get clearer and simple and we geta glimpse of finish line.

[Été]

Thank goodness! I was getting worried. Sarcasm I *should* rein in, but I love rhetorical questions and was getting worried :)

And yes, GRRM is hiding many many things about house Targaryen history. Which you know is fun for some of us, or we would not be doing this for years. But IMO there has to be a point in the series where things start to get clearer and simple and we geta glimpse of finish line.

And there's always the Dunk and Egg series to keep fleshing out Westeros after the series ends ^_^

[cteresa]

I'm unsure of the time-line (any help would be great!), but it seems likely to me that Ashara Dayne's child is one of the Aegons--either the one with the smashed head or the live one, whichever story we believe. And she killed herself because the child was taken from her, or was killed because it needed to stay a secret.

Hope somebody can correct if necessary:

Harrenhall tournament about 1 year before the sack of KL. Aegon born a bit before the tournament. Aegon was about 1 year old during the sack of KL and when he died (presumably). Jon Snow is born around the time of the sack, or up to 1 month afterwards (Lyanna´s bed of blood) - conceived after Harrenhall almost surely. Ashara Dayne killed herself around the time Jon was born. If Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhall she would have given birth some 3 months(?) before the sack of KL.

Post-natal depression is not an unknown thing. Specially if the child dies in childbirth, or if the pregnancy is a source of shame to the mother, or other factors. Yes, the child could have been taken from her (Jon, supposedly was) but there are other scenarios, Ashara could have killed the child and then tried to commit suicide. Or the child died and she commits suicide.

[cteresa]

And there's always the Dunk and Egg series to keep fleshing out Westeros after the series ends ^_^

Yeah and I love those, currently rereading, but that is another source of frustration, Summerhall.

And I think if/when GRRM finishes the series, he has incredible potential to keep fleshing the universe. Paralel novellas, different PoVs. I mean, I would buy. Oh, think of the adventures of young Oberyn or something. And so many many history to write about. But hope this story does not became a fractal, fragmenting into details ever more and never reaching an objective which seemed clear and achievable before.

[darrylzero]

1. Aegon can't be real Aegon. Dany's House of Undying Dream made clear there would be a false dragon (like a paper one used in a parade) - not just a true dragon controlled by a mummer (Varys).

2. Assume Meera and Edric Dayne stories, which agree, are correct. Ned was interested in Ashara, got up courage with Brandon's help to talk with her and the two fell in love at Harrenhall tourney.

3. Assume in the heat of passion and in the excitement of the tourney, the two consummated their relationship.

4. Ned plans to tell father (who is not at Harrenhall) and Ashara's family of their love and plans to wed but war intervenes, Brandon is killed and he has to marry Cat out of duty.

5. Ashara heads back to KL with Elia and discovers she's pregnant.

6. Varys discovers this and decides it would be a good idea to use Ashara's baby, when it arrives, as a substitute for Aegon in the event the war goes badly. Ashara agrees out of duty to Elia.

7. Baby arrives, and has Dayne (Targ-like) appearance. Baby is immediately hidden by Varys. Kingsguard and others close to royal family are told Ashara was pregnant but had a stillborn baby.

8. Sack of KL happens before substitution was made. True Aegon is killed.

9. Varys sends Ashara baby overseas to Jon C and tells him it is real child of Jon's best friend Rheagar, and asks Jon to train him to be a future King. (Advantage is there is a spare fake-Targ around in the event that Vis and Dany get killed by the Usurper.)

10. Ashara escapes KL, either before or after sack, and goes back to Starfall.

11. Ned shows up with Ashara's dead brother, word that he will remain married to Cat, and a baby from some other woman. Ashara helps Ned and then kills her self from the shock of all of these developments, including her belief that her baby was killed in sack of KL rather than Aegon.

12. Ned is ultra-protective of Jon's identity because he is a Targ and Robert would kill him, and because he broke honor by having a physical relationship with Ashara pre-marriage, so didn't want to break honor again.

13. Ned is ultra-protective of Ashara's good name because he loved and honored her. In addition, he did break his honor by having a physical relationship with her prior to marriage, and feels sick that circumstances prevented the marriage.

14. So, we have the ultimate irony of Ned being criticized for fathering Jon as a bastard when he actually (and almost certainly unknowingly) fathered fake-Aegon as a bastard.

15. Given that Ashara has dragon heritage, this will give us the third relationship of Ice-Fire (Lyanna-Rheagar, Ned-Ashara and eventually Jon-Dany). And, as we know, things come in threes in the ASOIF.

This sounds great, but part of me just doesn't feel like there could be another son of Ned's in this story. Still, finding out that her own baby was killed in Aegon's place (AND that Ned killed her brother AND that he was going to marry Catelyn) is a more convincing reason for Ashara's suicide than any other I've read (and it's particularly tragic if she was incorrect).

The thing that's really hard for me to swallow about this theory is the idea that Varys would somehow fail to make the switch in time. The logistics of him keeping Ashara's baby safe for the better part of a year without switching with Aegon just don't quite add up to me. Also, I liked the suggestion that the mummer's dragon could just refer to Varys being a mummer rather than the mummery of the dragon itself. Moreover, Young Griff never showed up in Mereen, so maybe we should take Quaithe with a grain of salt or start looking around for another mummer's dragon.

[MCM]

I'm surprised there hasn't been more speculation along the "x + Ashara = Daenerys" line. So Ned shows up at Starfall to return Dawn and picks up a secret baby Daenerys, they tell everyone the child is a stillborn, and then it's easy to swap Daenerys in when Rhaella dies in childborth at Dragonstone. Or even later, across the Narrow Sea.

It almost makes more sense than Aerys II being Daenerys's father. Aerys and Rhaella almost never saw each other later in their marriage, let alone had sex - only when Aerys burned someone alive, we learn. It's entirely possible that on the night Rickard Stark was burned, Daenerys was conceived. (Btw the way, the wiki lists different death years for Rickard and Brandon, so one is obviously wrong). But is that enough time for Daenerys to born immediately after the rebellion on Dragonstone? Rhaella was still pregnant during the Battle of the Trident and the subsequent flight to Dragonstone.

But most telling, Barristan doesn't say "Daenerys looks like Ashara." He literally says, "Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter..."

So yeah, the timing is yet to be revealed - but it seems just mechanically more likely that Aerys fathered Daenerys on Ashara, not Rhaella, and that Daenerys was switched in later. Both Aerys and Rhaegar were at the Harrenhall tourney (and Aerys was there at Varys' urging!!) Either could have had a fling/raped Ashara Dayne, and then she "turned to Stark" for comfort/protection (instead of Barristan). Either Aerys or Rhaegar could have "dishonored" her at Harrenhall, and both were dead and could have been grieved. Of course, it's also possible Ashara could have been grieving Ned's rejection/abandonment or Brandon's death.

And of course as far as Barristan knows, the child was actually a stillborn. Only maybe it wasn't. I like this particular line of reasoning:

5. Ashara heads back to KL with Elia and discovers she's pregnant.

6. Varys discovers this and decides it would be a good idea to use Ashara's baby, when it arrives, as a substitute for Aegon in the event the war goes badly. Ashara agrees out of duty to Elia.

7. Baby arrives, and has Dayne (Targ-like) appearance. Baby is immediately hidden by Varys. Kingsguard and others close to royal family are told Ashara was pregnant but had a stillborn baby.

This works no matter who the father is. The Targ-like appearance is more likely if the father is Aerys. Ned and Barristan still love her and still protective of her.

Obviously it could all be totally wrong. We just don't know what happened at Harrenhall exactly, and we don't know what happened in the South after Brandon and Rickard Stark were killed by Aerys. It could go either way.

[Carlucio]

In the third book i remember Arya talking with a squire that knew the mother of Lord Eddard Bastard.

[JonSnowKnowsNot]

Ned tells Asha that he fathered a child(Jon). A lie of course, but this causes her to kill herself. Well, actually she doesn't kill herself but a child is swapped somewhere.

What I gather from all of this is there's a chance Asha and Selmy could meet again.

[Erendis]

Just tossing this out here:

Could Ser Barristan have used "Stark" in reference to Ned because Ned was the Lord Stark that Barristan was probably most familiar with? I think Ser Barristan wasn't rude to Ned in King's Landing because 1) Ned was the King's Hand, and 2) Barristan is as close to a "true" knight as one might find in Westeros. He'd still be courteous, even if he disliked the person, I think. Sort of like Sansa. ;)

[Pipsmom]

I'm surprised there hasn't been more speculation along the "x + Ashara = Daenerys" line. So Ned shows up at Starfall to return Dawn and picks up a secret baby Daenerys, they tell everyone the child is a stillborn, and then it's easy to swap Daenerys in when Rhaella dies in childborth at Dragonstone. Or even later, across the Narrow Sea.

Intriguing. I'm not sure the timeline works however. Ashara was "dishonored" at the Harrenhal Tourney (according to Barristan). This occured 3 years before Daenerys was born. It would also make Dany Bastard-Born, rather than Stormborn. I believe she had to be pure Targaryen to be Unburnt and Mother of Dragons.

[Faranya]

Just tossing this out here:

Could Ser Barristan have used "Stark" in reference to Ned because Ned was the Lord Stark that Barristan was probably most familiar with? I think Ser Barristan wasn't rude to Ned in King's Landing because 1) Ned was the King's Hand, and 2) Barristan is as close to a "true" knight as one might find in Westeros. He'd still be courteous, even if he disliked the person, I think. Sort of like Sansa. ;)

Or Barristan, unlike Robert, could actually get over an infatuation that has been dead for over a decade and a half.

[El Pinko Grande]

I'm still not sure where I come down on the whole Ned vs Brandon thing. On the one hand, I like the added complexity that an affair with Ashara adds to Ned's character. He was a teenager at Harrenhal, after all, and I imagine his shame over a pre-marital affair could easily turn him into the rigidly honorable guy we see later.

On the other hand, Brandon seems a lot more like the kind of guy that a young girl would have a wild fling with. Young, handsome, overconfident vs mousy, self-righteous Ned. It makes sense. Plus, I like the added family drama that comes with Ashara having an affair with Brandon. It makes for a better story back at Harrenhal, IMO, especially with all the family drama that would presumably result between Brandon and Ned. Angry words are spoken between them, and then Lyanna disappears with Rhaegar. Next thing you know, Brandon is being strnagled to death in Aerys' throne room, and Ned is left with the knowledge that he and his brother were never reconciled. Later he has to confront Ashara about her brother's death, and the two of them bond over their losses.

Later Ned gets all icy and weird when the subject of Ashara comes up, both because of his guilt over the stuff left unsaid between him and Brandon and because of whatever baby-switching mischief he and Ashara got themselves up to before Ned returned to Winterfell.

[lokisnow]

Could Rhaegar have taken Lyanna as a way to force Brandon to come to King's Landing to answer for his dishonoring of Ashara Dayne?

[Flea Bottom's Up!]

In the third book i remember Arya talking with a squire that knew the mother of Lord Eddard Bastard.

Actually, he was a milk-brother of Jon Stark. He was also related to Ashara. He also reports that his aunt (another dayne) says that Ashara and Ned fell in love at the tournament at Harrenhall.

Somewhat ironically, the squire is named Ned.

It's in Storm of Swords.

<quote>

"There was an Arthur Dayne," she remembered. "The one they called the Sword of the Morning." (This is Arya)

"My father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Lasy Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born." (Ned's 12 )

"Why would she do that?" said Arya, startled.

Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. "Your lord father never spoke of her?" he said. "The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?"

"No. Did he know her?"

"Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring."

"Oh." Arya did not know what else to say. "Why did she jump in the sea, though?"

"Her heart was broken."

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just though it was stupid. She couldn't say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. "Did someone break it?"

He hesitated. "Perhaps it's not my place..."

"Tell me."

"He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal - "

</quote>

...a bit later

<quote>

It was Harwin who rode up beside here, in the end. "Where do you think you're going, milady? You shouldn't run off. There are wolves in these woods, and worse things."

"I'm not afraid," she said. "That boy Ned said..."

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alvie, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's naught like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought and neither one of them was pledged."

</quote>

From I think Catelyn's point of view with also have a mention of hearing either the story or the name. I believe she thinks that Ned got really serious about it and she never heard that name at Winterfell again.

Another note, something similiar to the line "Your lord father never spoke of her?" appears in Meera's tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree... which covers that same tournament at Harrenhal.

[Été]

Actually, he was a milk-brother of Jon Stark. He was also related to Ashara. He also reports that his aunt (another dayne) says that Ashara and Ned fell in love at the tournament at Harrenhall.

Somewhat ironically, the squire is named Ned.

It's in Storm of Swords.

I've always loved his little reveal.

“You have a House?” That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. “Who are you?”

“My lady?” Ned looked embarrassed. “I’m Edric Dayne, the . . . the Lord of Starfall.”

BANTER. Do we know where exactly Gerold fits into the family tree? Darkstar is the lamest sobriquet ever.

[Visenya Vhagar]

Could Rhaegar have taken Lyanna as a way to force Brandon to come to King's Landing to answer for his dishonoring of Ashara Dayne?

Theoretically? Sure.

Realistically? I can't fathom a motive. Why would the prince care about two nobles having sex? Even assuming that for some reason, he cared about this particular instance, if he wanted to make Brandon pay (though for the record, I do not believe that Brandon had sex with Ashara), there are far less roundabout ways of doing so than kidnapping Brandon's sister.

[MCM]

Intriguing. I'm not sure the timeline works however. Ashara was "dishonored" at the Harrenhal Tourney (according to Barristan). This occured 3 years before Daenerys was born. It would also make Dany Bastard-Born, rather than Stormborn. I believe she had to be pure Targaryen to be Unburnt and Mother of Dragons.

The problem is that we don't really know specific time periods for anything, and GRRM gets especially "loose" when it comes to things like 1-3 years.

One of the big oversights I noticed is that the tourney at Harrenhall is supposed to be in the "Year of the False Spring". So Robert's rebellion was during winter? Defies everything we know about medieval military history, and winter in Westeros. The Long Summer didn't even start until 288, and the "False Spring" was in 281. So there must have been several years of winter and then spring before 288.

Regardless, there's always the possibility that Aerys "dishonored" Ashara at Harrenhall, but didn't actually impregnate her until later. All we know is that she was at Harrenhall one year, and at Starfall later. She could have been anywhere in between.

The name "Stormborn" is merely a reference to the storm she was allegedly born during at Dragonstone, not her parentage. Whether or not she could have become the Unburnt as a half-blooded Targaryen is an interesting question, but it's obvious that being full-blooded Targaryen isn't enough, anyway - "Viserys was no dragon". Of course, clearly a drop of "dragon blood" isn't enough either, as Quentyn showed us. Seems pretty clear that it's not about the lineage, but about the person.

[Flea Bottom's Up!]

I've always loved his little reveal.

“You have a House?” That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. “Who are you?”

“My lady?” Ned looked embarrassed. “I’m Edric Dayne, the . . . the Lord of Starfall.”

BANTER. Do we know where exactly Gerold fits into the family tree? Darkstar is the lamest sobriquet ever.

It's also good in that after that you have Gendry defending Ned because 'at least he took care of his bastard' (or something like that). When it's partially her father (and her's based on the dragon skulls scene) knowledge that got Ned killed. (Gendry being Robert's bastard son.... if anyone missed it.)

I always thought that Darkstar was a really bad joke/pun/reference. Dark Star being the name of an old Grateful Dead song. Ashara Dayne ---> suicide ---> the next Dayne we meet having the name of a Grateful Dead song...

I believe Dark Star is Arthur's cousin.