[ADwD Spoilers] Ashara Dayne

[RobMRobM]

From a 2008 Tower of the Hand article discussing Edric Dayne:

"Let's look at House Dayne's family tree. Note that young Ned is the son of... well, no one we know. By the time we meet him, he's already calling himself the "Lord of Starfall," so likely his father is dead. Under normal circumstances, I'd say his lineage was unimportant, but we have this curious passage from ASOS 44:

[Arya] had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey.

Purple eyes, silver hair. Hmm. Traits common to House Targaryen. Many have wondered if Ned could be baby Aegon, but his age--twelve at the time of ASOS--just doesn't fit. The son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell would have to be at least sixteen by that time.

The eyes and hair also appear typical of other Daynes. Ashara was "tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes" and Gerold the Darkstar similarly has thick silver hair (with a black streak) and dark purple eyes. It's possible that these Daynes are of Targaryen descent and that a Dayne of old married into House Targaryen, much like what happened with House Martell and House Baratheon. It's also possible that the Daynes and the Targaryens share similar ancestors, say, from Valyria."

[Jon AS]

Purple eyes, silver hair. Hmm. Traits common to House Targaryen

But not unique to them. This might convince you. Or not.;)

[Markus]

It's possible that these Daynes are of Targaryen descent and that a Dayne of old married into House Targaryen, much like what happened with House Martell and House Baratheon. It's also possible that the Daynes and the Targaryens share similar ancestors, say, from Valyria."

Q: Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants?

George_RR_Martin: ... As for the violet eyes . . . look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

Source

[Été]

Lys is full of the blood of old Valyria; on Westeros, the Velaryons and Daynes are described with Valyrian features, never mind people like Aurane Waters. The colouring is distinctive, but not exclusive to House Targaryen.

[RobMRobM]

Jon AS - couldn't read your link.

Thanks to others for weighing in so far. Whether or not Daynes have Targ blood is not essential to my wacky theory, but it sure would be a poetic capper to it.

[The Bronze Wyvern]

The political alliances and marriages are fascinating: I mean, think about Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully after Littlefinger had got her pregnant. Also, Jaime was originally meant for Lysa, before Aerys put him in the Kingsguard. Walder Frey managed to get a second son (Emmon) married to a Lannister, much to Tywin's disgust (love that Genna/Jaime discussion). We also have the Tyrell plot to marry Sansa to Willas and the fake Arya marrying Ramsay. Lady Dustin's disappointment about Brandon getting a "Southron match" is typical of a minor vassal whp hoped for a marriage to the liege but was disappointed because a girl was available from another Great House.

As far as Ashara goes, this has always been one of my favourite mysteries. I don't think we've heard the last of it, either. My money is on Ned being the one Ashara was in love with, but with possibly some kind of Littlefinger thinking Lysa was Cat situation where Brandon pretended to be Ned in the dark or something...

[Jon AS]

Jon AS - couldn't read your link.

It's the same one Markus used in the post below mine. Works fine for me, btw.

[Flea Bottom's Up!]

I don't see any evidence at all that Ashara Dayne had an affair with Brandon Stark. We have people both from Starfall and from Winterfell (and the Reeds) saying that Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne fell in love at Harrenhal. Barristan himself talks about Ashara Dayne and Stark - he just omits the name Ned. Does not mean at all that he was referring to Brandon or Benjen or Rickard or Tony Stark Iron Man.

[snip a bunch of stuff that I agree with...]

My thought post-ADWD was pretty much a continuation of what I've always thought about this. Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal. Implicitly or explicitly there was some form of understanding that Ned was going to marry her. And, that this was visible and apparent to enough people at the tournament so that the connection between Ned and Ashara keeps coming up.

This just appeals to me because it would such a romantic tragedy. At the same tournament, where Rhaeger and Lyanna meet, Ned and Ashara, but the fallout of the first pairing leads to them never really having the chance to be together. If there was a stillborn daughter, that daughter was Ned's, and R+L=J is true then I think that really puts the whole "Promise Me, Ned" thing into a big pile of emotional goo where it would make complete sense that Ned would never want to speak of that situation to anyone being the big, strong, silent, stoic, honorable northman that he was.

As for Catelyn's 'dutiful' statement, I think that could be attributed to the fact that Ned was doing his duty with her at the beginning. He married her for political and/or family honor reasons. I think that when Ned thinks that his honor was only tested once this is what he was referring to. Does he do what he wants to do in his heart or does he do what he thinks he is supposed to do as the eldest remaining Stark son?

Barristan's 'Stark' I think is his disassociating the 'Ned' that he respects from the 'Ned' of this incident (and GRRM wanting to play a little with his reader's expectations). And, given his feelings for Ashara, I see that 'Stark' as being in a no win situation there. Ned would have been blamed by Barristan for whatever course of action he took.

[Maelys]

I really don't know what to think.

Concerning Ashara Dayne, in AGOT she is described by Catelyn as being "tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes". In ADWD her hair seems to have changed to "long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders" according to Ser Barristan, which surprised me as I thought she had fair hair (Edric Dayne does according to Arya, I assumed Arthur Dayne did aswell). Are they the same person?

[cteresa]

fair could argualy have been meant in the sense of beautiful, not in the sense of blonde. Arguably.

(though mind you, Barristan later thinking Dany makes him think of ashara seems to point pretty strongly to Ashara looking Valyrian. Or something. there is something about Ashara, Dany and Barristan´s sadness when made to talk of Dany´s parents love interests. NOT that I can make any decent theory of it, but I can spot CLUES even when not knowing what to make of them.)

[Jon AS]

(though mind you, Barristan later thinking Dany makes him think of ashara seems to point pretty strongly to Ashara looking Valyrian. Or something. there is something about Ashara, Dany and Barristan´s sadness when made to talk of Dany´s parents love interests. NOT that I can make any decent theory of it, but I can spot CLUES even when not knowing what to make of them.)

Dany is actually Ned&Ashara's lovechild! Barristan is clearly sad he can't tell her about it!

[cteresa]

Dany is actually Ned&Ashara's lovechild! Barristan is clearly sad he can't tell her about it!

try harder. (please, at least a Ashara is Aerys´ love child thing...)

[Jon AS]

try harder. (please, at least a Ashara is Aerys´ love child thing...)

Of course she is. As is Edric. Why else would he and Dany have Targaryen hair?

[cteresa]

Mind you, going by the Ashara=Lemore theories, and YG=Illyrio+Serra theories, either of those suggestions is perfectly sensible.

But yeah, my point is, when GRRM makes a point of mentioning a ressemblance, that two characters look alike, maybe that is what we should be paying attention to. Instead of Y has blue eyes, so maybe X also having blues eyes that is his mother!

[Jon AS]

But yeah, my point is, when GRRM makes a point of mentioning a ressemblance, that two characters look alike, maybe that is what we should be paying attention to. Instead of Y has blue eyes, so maybe X also having blues eyes that is his mother!

True, particularly since the author has a history (hey, I can think of one example!) of forgetting a character's eye colour.

So...Dany reminds Barristan of Ashara and she reminded Jorah of Lynesse. Ergo Ashara and Lynesse are secretly of Targaryen descent. Now, does that mean that they had Targaryen fathers or does it go further back than that? Clearly we need more detailed family trees!

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I really don't know what to think.

Concerning Ashara Dayne, in AGOT she is described by Catelyn as being "tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes". In ADWD her hair seems to have changed to "long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders" according to Ser Barristan, which surprised me as I thought she had fair hair (Edric Dayne does according to Arya, I assumed Arthur Dayne did aswell). Are they the same person?

Yeah, I suspect it is a continuity error, considering that all Danyes seem to have blonde hair. Doesn't have to mean they are descended from Targaryens, though.

[cteresa]

So...Dany reminds Barristan of Ashara and she reminded Jorah of Lynesse. Ergo Ashara and Lynesse are secretly of Targaryen descent. Now, does that mean that they had Targaryen fathers or does it go further back than that? Clearly we need more detailed family trees!

Oh wait, are we sure Lynesse is not Ashara in disguise.. Hair dye probably explains any discrepancy.

Or if we can not just stick strictly to text (and poor GRRM if we did, he probably enjoys very much being able to send people on wild goose chains), at least let´s not ignore the text.

[Eddard Stark]

1. A lot of people have Valyrian blood (and features) - not just the Targaryens. It so happens that most of the Westerosi with Valyrian features are Targaryen though - that's not the case in the free cities.

2. Perhaps Edric Dayne was told that Wylla and Ned Stark had a child, so that he wouldn't think ill of his aunt (or perhaps that is what they tell to outsiders!). Honestly, that's the kind of lie you readily tell to someone to protect the honor of a family member.

3. There's no reason to believe Lynesse Hightower is relevant.

4. Lemore as Ashara Dayne seems possible, but unlikely.

[Été]

So...Dany reminds Barristan of Ashara and she reminded Jorah of Lynesse. Ergo Ashara and Lynesse are secretly of Targaryen descent. Now, does that mean that they had Targaryen fathers or does it go further back than that? Clearly we need more detailed family trees!

I think Jorah just digs blondes. The purple eyes and silver-gold hair have tended to go hand-in-hand in descriptions - is Ashara the first nonconformist? Unless hers is just a darker shade of silver...

[cteresa]

Ran, Eté, sorry, it was sarcasm from my part. I can not speak for Jon either, but I got the feeling a few of his last posts were as well sarcastic (Edric being Aerys´s zombie love child and all).

Though with sarcasm I was trying to get a point, we are told Ashara looks like Dany (vice versa more correct probably). That for me is a more interesting tidbit and reliable source for speculation than septa Lemore. No, I do not know what it means. But if we are going to look for Targaryen descendant and lots cousins, well, the Daynes do look interesting, no?

RobM´s comments are Edric are also very intriguing. No theories from me, but intriguing.