[ADwD Spoilers] Ashara Dayne

[The Red Keep]

I'm most definitely in the Ned + Ashara = stillborn baby camp. I think that this is why he went to Starfall to bring her her brother's sword (at least, that was the "official" reason, where he would have really gone back to visit the woman he loved before he was meant to marry Catelyn). To a lesser degree, I am also in the Young Griff "Aegon" = Ashara's not so stillborn baby, and that Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne. The lack of specification of eye colour is really telling to me; I think if GRRM had told us her eye colour it would have given the game away...

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

What if for instance Aerys was the father?

Interesting thought.

[Pate Peet]

There has been mention of the gap between when Brandon fights the duel with Petyr and when the marriage is supposed to occur with Catelyn.

This gap also gives time for Baby Aegon to have been born after Harrenhall (Elia being in the first trimester or so during the tourney.)

If Brandon did get it on with Ashara at Harrenhall, during the gap he goes to tell Ashara that it is all off, but sleeps with her one last time. She get preggers.

Selmy hears Ashara and Elia talking about Brandon and Ashara at KL, because he "listens without hearing."

Brandon heads back to Riverrun to get hitched and hears about Lyanna.

Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar because she was pissed about the double standard of Brandon banging whoever he wanted.

Unified Field Theory.

[Brandon the Epithetless]

We've no information as to where Lyanna was, and in fact, there's no evidence that she was ever in King's Landing, specifically.

I have long speculated that she remained at Harrenhal as a guest of the Whents and a companion of Lord Whent's daughter, staying there (or contriving to stay there...) until Brandon came back through the riverlands to get married.

Also, Catelyn says that Brandon was on his way to Riverrun for the wedding when he heard about Lyanna. Again, my speculation is that he and a few companions raced ahead of the main wedding party to see Lyanna at Harrenhal... only to find her gone. This is why Lord Rickard wouldn't have been able to stop him, because he wasn't anywhere near Brandon.

Yes it is more logical for Lyanna to be south of the Neck for the abduction/elopement to happen. I put in RR and KL in that speculative timeline because it is the two locations where either party were connected. RR is Lyanna's soon to be in-laws castle so it is logical for here to be there. For KL my own pet theory is that as Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal she may have opted to go home to Starfall, and Elia is now in need of a new companion perhaps Rhaegar convinced the Starks to allow Lyanna to take Ashara's place. This could or could not work depending on Elia's familiarity and inclination towards Rhaegar's supposed plans.

[Brandon the Epithetless]

double post

[BladeDancer]

Interestingly Catelyn Stark has inadvertently twice been the cause of great pain and woe for House Dayne. It is heavily speculated by 5 separate sources (Harwin of Winterfell, Edric Dayne, Cersei, Barristan, Meera Reed) that Ashara Dayne and Ned met and fell in love at the Tournament in Harrenhal. They probably planned to get married but because of the war and Brandon's death, Ned had to marry Catelyn Tully instead. Obviously this meant that Ashara could not marry Ned, so Cat inadvertently causes grief to Ashara.

Later on, Cat is recovered from the River Trident and resurrected by Beric Dondarrion giving up his life force for Cat. So Cat is reborn but Beric dies as a consequence. So Cat inadvertently causes grief to Allyria Dayne who is betrothed to Beric Dondarrion.

Now it appears Cat has taken over the leadership of the BWB. Last we saw Edric Dayne was when he was part of BWB. We don't actually know his whereabouts since then. Brienne did not see him when she was getting rescued/put on trial. I assume that Ned Dayne is still with the BWB but if so then surely he would have mentioned to Cat that he had met Arya. So surely Cat knows that Arya is/was alive and she escaped the Lannisters.

[Été]

Later on, Cat is recovered from the River Trident and resurrected by Beric Dondarrion giving up his life force for Cat. So Cat is reborn but Beric dies as a consequence. So Cat inadvertently causes grief to Allyria Dayne who is betrothed to Beric Dondarrion.

In fairness, by resurrection number seven it doesn't sound like our dear lord of Blackhaven was quite the catch he was at the start of the series. Poor UnBeric. Poor Lady Allyria. I'm also curious about the fate of Edric Dayne, and hope he gets drawn into the main action in the next couple of books.

[Starks in the Crypt]

Here is a quote from Cat 2, GoT : "Eddard Stark married her in Brandon's place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lies between them, as did the other, the shadow of the other...the woman who bore him his bastard son"

Prevoiusly, Cat mentions Brandon and Ned has a bitter twist to his mouth, "Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was always meant for Brandon"

Later Cat mentions confronting Ned about Jon and Ned says "Jon is my blood, that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name [Ashara Dayne], my lady."

The first quote implies Jon is something that "lies between them" and this is due to Ned withholding the truth from Cat. Cat hints that Brandon lies between them; the inference is that Brandon lies between them because of grief or Cat first being betrothed to Brandon, but perhaps part of the distance related to Brandon is Ned lying about Brandon to Cat concerning how honorable Brandon was.

The second reference shows bitterness and Brandon always getting what he wanted. I picture Ned not liking Brandon's dishnorable behavior more than him jealous of his older brothers good fortune.

The third quote...the comment about accepting Jon as being my blood, that seems to be regards Jon being Lyanna's son. The second part, which leads to Ned putting down talk of Ashara Dayne around Winterfell, could relate to Ned wanting to stop talk of Brandon and Ashara's history. If Ned and Ashara hooked up, Ned would admit it to Cat as he is honorable in admitting his faults. And a rumor that Jon was Ned and Ashara's son would only serve to protect Jon. It feels like Ned could be protecting Brandon's reputation here, even if it is a bitter pill to swallow. Lyanna may in fact have exacted a promise regarding Brandon's secrets as well.

[Nina]

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady

had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief

for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had

dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

I believe in the possibility an affair and a possible pregnancy Ashara. But something always struck me as odd:

If she really got pregnant around the time of Harrenhal, took too long to kill herself, since it was about two years ago. Or if it was because Ned is married, also had been almost two years ago, she would know about his marriage.

So, for all we know, Elia was secretly in love with Ashara Dayne or something.

My theory about the Ashara's suicide: Ned brought news about the sack and the death of Elia. Her despair was by Princess rather than a supposed dead son.

[bhlade]

Brandon + Ashara = Jon.

It is known.

Then again meh R+L=J still makes more sense.

[reiver]

If she really got pregnant around the time of Harrenhal, took too long to kill herself, since it was about two years ago. Or if it was because Ned is married, also had been almost two years ago, she would know about his marriage.

Agreed. The death of her child and the death of Brandon were all too long ago to be the driving force behind a suicide at that time. If Selmy had mentioned the death of her brother that would have made more sense for the pro-Brandon argument, that that was the straw that broke... That wording and the timeline makes me think he's refering to Ned and her finding out that he's abandoned her as well as killed her brother.

[Ygritte]

Brandon + Ashara = Jon.

It is known.

Then again meh R+L=J still makes more sense.

It's possible. The affair would have had to go on for a while, such that Ashara didn't get pregnant until around the beginning of the war, and then had a newborn when Ned stopped by to bring the news of Arthur's death. Then he gets there and either Ashara has already died and he takes the motherless baby, or he takes the baby from a living Ashara to save her the "shame," and raises him as his own bastard. I could see it.

I still think R+L=J, but I also think Martin likes to muddy the waters and mess with us. ;)

[reiver]

Brandon + Ashara = Jon.

It is known.

If this was the case why would Ned not just say its Brandon's kid? He'd still be a bastard and not a legitimate heir of Winterfell, the dishonour to Cat is less when it's her fiancee rather than her husband fathering bastards, Ned doesn't have to lie all the time if he just straight up admits it. It also makes for a pretty lame and anti-climactic ending to one of the longest running and most popular mysteries.

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

Doesn't really seem like he [Aegon] gives a shit about his mom.

I think he does not know that (if) Lemore is his mom. He believes he is Aegon.

[Pipsmom]

Brandon + Ashara = Jon.

It is known.

Then again meh R+L=J still makes more sense.

Actually it went like this:

Scene opens with Eddard and Howland Reed battling Ser Arthur Dayne. Arthur falls dead. Ned runs up the stairs of the Tower of Joy and finds Lyanna in her bed of blood, with a newborn.

L: Oh Ned, forgive me. This is all my fault, but I loved Rhaegar so...

N: (Stares at her, trying to process...)

L: Take my baby, Ned. I know I'm dying. Raise him as yours, he is of your blood. And NEVER reveal he is half Targ. Robert would kill him.

PROMISE ME, NED!!!

N: Robert would never do that...he's my BFF.

L: Open your eyes you dumb oaf. Of course he would. Take the baby first to Starfall, it's nearby. Arthur said there is a wet nurse there, named Wylla, for the boy.

N: Noooooo! I can't face Ashara after what happened at Harrenhal.

L. Shut Up!! Arthur said Ashara isn't even there, the cover story is that she killed herself, but he said she's off on a secret mission Varys set up.

N: OK, I'll go.

L: Remember Ned - Promise me....(she dies)

[Ned comes out of the Tower of Joy, with the newborn]

Howland Reed: WTF Ned?

N: I have to go to Starfall.

Howland Reed: Whatever. You might as well take Dayne's sword "Dawn" with you and drop it off. I'll stay here and dispose of all these bodies. I have power over mud and dirt and stones and such.

[scene fades...]

[The Oncoming Storm]

Dear, honourable Ser Barristan. Makes me want to hug him even more.

[Ygritte]

Howland Reed: WTF Ned?

N: I have to go to Starfall.

Howland Reed: Whatever. You might as well take Dayne's sword "Dawn" with you and drop it off. I'll stay here and dispose of all these bodies. I have power over mud and dirt and stones and such.

[scene fades...]

Heehee, I think that's pretty close, actually...

[Sword in the Morning]

Young Ned Dayne tells Arya that Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne were in love with one another.

Yes, you could claim that he's only repeating things he's heard around the household growing up...

...but who would benefit from using Ned as a cover-story for Brandon? There's no reason for that.

[Sis Who Swears]

Actually it went like this:

Scene opens with Eddard and Howland Reed battling Ser Arthur Dayne. Arthur falls dead. Ned runs up the stairs of the Tower of Joy and finds Lyanna in her bed of blood, with a newborn.

L: Oh Ned, forgive me. This is all my fault, but I loved Rhaegar so...

N: (Stares at her, trying to process...)

L: Take my baby, Ned. I know I'm dying. Raise him as yours, he is of your blood. And NEVER reveal he is half Targ. Robert would kill him.

PROMISE ME, NED!!!

N: Robert would never do that...he's my BFF.

L: Open your eyes you dumb oaf. Of course he would. Take the baby first to Starfall, it's nearby. Arthur said there is a wet nurse there, named Wylla, for the boy.

N: Noooooo! I can't face Ashara after what happened at Harrenhal.

L. Shut Up!! Arthur said Ashara isn't even there, the cover story is that she killed herself, but he said she's off on a secret mission Varys set up.

N: OK, I'll go.

L: Remember Ned - Promise me....(she dies)

[Ned comes out of the Tower of Joy, with the newborn]

Howland Reed: WTF Ned?

N: I have to go to Starfall.

Howland Reed: Whatever. You might as well take Dayne's sword "Dawn" with you and drop it off. I'll stay here and dispose of all these bodies. I have power over mud and dirt and stones and such.

[scene fades...]

I like this a lot.

[Lord Godric]

Young Ned Dayne tells Arya that Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne were in love with one another.

Yes, you could claim that he's only repeating things he's heard around the household growing up...

...but who would benefit from using Ned as a cover-story for Brandon? There's no reason for that.

We also know that Ned wanted to dance with Ashara at the tourney at Harrenhal but was too shy to ask so his brother did. I certainly think Ned had a thing for Ashara and had Brandon never died he would have married her instead of Catelyn. So if Ashara did have a kid with a Stark my bet is on Ned. Although that's another slight on his honor.