[ADwD Spoilers] Ashara Dayne

[snickerers]

Brandon probably strangled himself before Rickard roasted. Those pyromancers were supposedly quite good at slow roasting. I wouldn't be surprised if Aerys specifically ordered them to keep Rickard alive long enough to watch the demise of his son.

As for Brandon being a douche, remember that we are getting Lady Dustin's impression of him. She doesn't seem like the most objective person to me what with the sheer glee she shows when she tells Theon that she wants to feed poor Ned's bones to her dogs :stillsick: . Just because she seemed to like the douchy type doesn't mean Brandon was a huge douche :laugh: . While Brandon obviously liked to frolic with the ladies, I'm not so sure that he would sleep with the woman that his brother was infatuated with. Even if Ashara had shown interest in Brandon I would think he was enough of Rickard's Stark's son to refrain.

[Mark3]

I am pretty sure that other Starks are also interred in the crypt, though maybe not among the kings/lords. They have no likenesses, however.

I'm sure the other Straks are interred somewhere in Winterfell, just separate from the lords of Winterfell (or maybe they are in the crypts but just don't have statues). Except Brandon and Lyanna, who get statues amongst the Lords. From Bran's final chapter in GAME, he says:

"And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are beside him. not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

[Eaglewood]

We simply don't know enough back Ashara or Harrenhall to make up anything other than wild conjecture at this point. All we know that is, for whatever reason, Ashara and Lyanna were both mentioned a lot in this book. They are building to something, it just hasn't taken full shape yet.

[mh-t]

Remember too, Eddard said "She wanted to rest beside Father and Brandon." That implies to me that Brandon was already buried in Winterfell when Lyanna was dying. The idea that Ned would have felt bad about leaving Brandon out doesn't make sense in that case.

[mcb]

When Bran (Ned's son) visits the crypt, it's noted that the only two interred there who were not lords of Winterfell were Brandon and Lyanna. Ned broke with tradition to have their bones and likenesses there.

Not precisely. Luwin begs Theon to have (fake) Bran and Rickon buried in the crypts, while neither of them was lord of Winterfell.

But indeed only lords and kings were supposed to have statues.

[Ygritte]

Brandon probably strangled himself before Rickard roasted. Those pyromancers were supposedly quite good at slow roasting. I wouldn't be surprised if Aerys specifically ordered them to keep Rickard alive long enough to watch the demise of his son.

It actually says in AGoT that Rickard watched Brandon die, in the scene where Ned and Robert go to the crypt together. It doesn't make any reference to Rickard also dying in the same incident--so it's possible GRRM hadn't worked out that whole history in his head yet--but you are right according to book canon. Brandon died first, ergo was never lord of Winterfell.

[Yarl Snow]

It actually says in AGoT that Rickard watched Brandon die, in the scene where Ned and Robert go to the crypt together. It doesn't make any reference to Rickard also dying in the same incident--so it's possible GRRM hadn't worked out that whole history in his head yet--but you are right according to book canon. Brandon died first, ergo was never lord of Winterfell.

If you guys want to discuss the crypts of Winterfell, could you create a new topic?

[jurble]

I generally imagine Brandon's method of seduction works like this:

And Brandon would look something like this:

Except he'd be less nervous.

[BrainFireBob]

Hm. Potential twists.

Brandon Stark is a possibility.

Can we take the list of lords as possible "dishonorables"?

That's Barristan (unlikely), Brandon (possible- Ned does take queerly well to Robert despite Robert's faults, would make sense if his idolized elder brother was the same), Oberyn (he does run to girls), or Jon Connington- which could suggest, as has been discussed elsewhere, that Lemore=Ashara. Perhaps it is their son, and the stillborn daughter was a lie?

[bens]

Doesn't say which one she preferred, just that Brandon was the one to approach her first and she danced with Ned as a result.

The wild wolf could be Lyanna, too.

[Alcatur]

Wouldn't it be impossible for Brandon to father child which would be born around Asharas suicide?

There are two years between Tourney at Harrenhal and Ned visiting Starfall and Asharas suicide (as evidenced by Jaimes age at the Tourney and the age when he killed Aerys; its even more when we count Eddard journey south). I guess that Barristan, serving with Arthur Dayne would know if it occured earlier; also she had to stillborn her child around that time. Since this is also when Robb was born, at the time of possible conceiving of Asharas child, Brandon had to be dead and buried.

I remember that GRRM once pointed out that Ashara wasn't nailed to the floor in Starfall and that they have horses in Dorne too - thus implying that she traveled (this would be hard in late pregnancy). Thus I would see two Stark possibilities:

Ned and Ashara met sometime during the war and said daughter was his child.

Ashara took part in the smuggle Aegon out from the KL scheme and her suicide was just a ruse; then the daughter may be either invented, Wyllas, R+L's Jons Twin (possible...) or still Asharas with Ned

[Ygritte]

The wild wolf could be Lyanna, too.

Possible...but she's also the Wolf Maid in the same story.

[Été]

The whole N+A=J theory rests on vague rumours that there was something between them, which seem to be widely whispered - so the interest must have been mutual at Harrenhal, and noticeable to more than just Howland Reed. And would Barristan have to bear Ned any ill-will as a result? He doesn't come across as jealous, mainly sad that his white cloak precluded him from ever having a chance.

As for Ashara grieving for "the man who dishonoured her at Harrenhal". That does sound more fitting for dead Brandon. Maybe a married Eddard would be just as lost to her. (We'll just hope hanging out with all those Targs and Lannisters didn't make her look at Arthur in a whole new light :uhoh: )

[Buried Treasure]

I'm curious about how Barristan knows about Ashara's child, and whether he knows the truth, or believes he knows. A story about Ashara having a bastard child isn't one the Dayne's would want spread wildly around, and indeed we have never heard any rumours of this before. Alcatur pointed out that Barristan would have served with Arthur Dayne, perhaps he confided in him. If Barristan saw the pregnancy / babe himself then it would suggest the earlier timeline with Ashara conceiving around the time of Harrenhal. We don't know specifics on where either of them are earlier in the war, but towards the end Ashara returns to Starfell and Barristan is a wounded captive.

Also, did we already know that Ashara was a Lady in Waiting? I never really thought about her being at KL.

[Eddard Stark]

I think the idea that Ned bears any resentment towards Brandon is pretty silly. If you look at who he named his children after, it's clear that the biggest positive influences on his life were: Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Brandon Stark and Rickard Stark.

As someone else pointed out, he also buried Brandon in the crypts. So no reason to think that Ned really resented his brother...except for dying stupidly.

I always thought the white sword that Ashara danced with was her brother, who is the only man famous for a white sword. White Sword as a term is ambiguous if applied to all the KG (it could have been Oswell Whent!), but it's quite clear if it means Arthur Dayne. And all the names that Jojen used were fairly precise and unambiguous although indirect.

Honestly Ned Stark would have been a pretty good match for Ashara Dayne. He's the second son of a great house, and likely to inherit his own keep (although not winterfell) one day. Obviously Brandon would have been a better match, but there's little reason to believe that the scion of a great house would marry a daughter of a lesser house (Dayne) on the other side of the world. The most reasonable candidates for Brandon would have been the daughter of a major northern house, or a daughter of one of the other great houses. One would think that Ashara Dayne would know this and avoid any liaison with someone who is so likely to marry for political reasons. It's a lot more conceivable that a younger son could marry who he wanted, since there are fewer political complications.

Anyway, there seems to be very little evidence that points specifically to Brandon Stark (as opposed to Ned), but a fair bit of evidence for Ned. Not the least of which is Edric Dayne's story.

Whoever theorized Benjen is out to lunch - he was hardly old enough. And it's clear that Barristan thought Ashara was beautiful, but was not about to break his vows.

It seems like the mention of a stillborn daughter was really more intended to kill off the theory that Jon was the son of Ashara and Ned, than anything else.

And yes: We knew that Ashara Dayne was a lady in waiting for the Queen.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Luwin begs Theon to have (fake) Bran and Rickon buried in the crypts, while neither of them was lord of Winterfell.

Has anybody figured out why Maester Luwin requested that that be done?

After all, Maester Luwin knew the dead boys were fakes: he later said he’d known all along because the leg muscles were wrong on the Bran lookalike. Paraplegics don’t have muscular calves, you know.

So what was the wise maester’s motive here with his petition? It wasn’t what he said it was, that’s for sure. So what was it?

It can’t be that he suspected that’s where the boys were in hiding, because faithful Maester Luwin would surely never have betrayed his charges, and poking about the crypt would have been too likely to flush the quarry from cover.

What was our Magister Ludi’s real game here, eh?

[Joanna vander Poele]

Dun dun dunn!!

[zakarisa]

First I want to say "Hi". That`s my first post here, but this topic made me think a lot.

The more read and think about it, the more I`m sure there was nothing between Ned and Ashara. It just doesn`t make sense. If he loved her and the dead child was his, why the whole GoT he never thought about them? He should be shaken by her siucide, right? But no - he lives happily with Cat and their children. His bitter memories are all about his sister. No regrets, not even a memory from the time in Haranhal, where they were supposedly in love. I don`t buy it.

Honestly, at first I thought it was Benjen. It would make sense why is he on the Wall. Why really? He was very young, when chose the black. Why? After Brandon`s death, he becomes the second son in the Stark family - an old and very powerful house. He could merry well and would have a wide choice of brides. Yet he chooses exile with criminals and people who hide from the world like Maester Aemon. He tries to convince Jon to stay home, so he could be with a woman, have a child. Why he didn`t follow his own advise? If he lost a lover and a child, and was ashamed of "dishonoring" Ashara, it explains his choise. Still I didn`t take in mind that he was very young at the time of the tourney and can`t be the father of Ashara`s child. Right? I also want to ask did Selmy referred to the "Stark", as a "boy" anywhere? If he does, then I still think it is Benjen. Though, Brandon as the secret lover of lady Dayne seems more and more possible.

[Ygritte]

Honestly Ned Stark would have been a pretty good match for Ashara Dayne. He's the second son of a great house, and likely to inherit his own keep (although not winterfell) one day. Obviously Brandon would have been a better match, but there's little reason to believe that the scion of a great house would marry a daughter of a lesser house (Dayne) on the other side of the world. The most reasonable candidates for Brandon would have been the daughter of a major northern house, or a daughter of one of the other great houses. One would think that Ashara Dayne would know this and avoid any liaison with someone who is so likely to marry for political reasons. It's a lot more conceivable that a younger son could marry who he wanted, since there are fewer political complications.

And I think Brandon is already betrothed by this point anyway. Sure, we see people breaking their betrothals, but it's usually the hopeless romantics who do drastic things like that. ;) If Brandon was something of a player, and not in love with Ashara, he wouldn't see much point in breaking a betrothal to one heiress to marry another heiress when he didn't give much of a damn about either woman personally.

[Été]

The more read and think about it, the more I`m sure there was nothing between Ned and Ashara. It just doesn`t make sense. If he loved her and the dead child was his, why the whole GoT he never thought about them? He should be shaken by her siucide, right? But no - he lives happily with Cat and their children. His bitter memories are all about his sister. No regrets, not even a memory from the time in Haranhal, where they were supposedly in love. I don`t buy it.

If Ned had been thinking wistfully about Ashara Dayne throughout AGoT it would have removed a lot of the mystery surrounding Jon's parentage.

Has anybody figured out why Maester Luwin requested that that be done?

After all, Maester Luwin knew the dead boys were fakes: he later said he’d known all along because the leg muscles were wrong on the Bran lookalike. Paraplegics don’t have muscular calves, you know.

So what was the wise maester’s motive here with his petition? It wasn’t what he said it was, that’s for sure. So what was it?

It can’t be that he suspected that’s where the boys were in hiding, because faithful Maester Luwin would surely never have betrayed his charges, and poking about the crypt would have been too likely to flush the quarry from cover.

What was our Magister Ludi’s real game here, eh?

I didn't read anything suspicious into that at all. This is off-topic but I reckon he saw the dead fakes and worked out exactly what was going on: that Bran and Rickon must have eluded Theon, who was trying to cover his ass. Had Luwin protested that the dead children weren't really Bran and Rickon, he would only have been putting hunters on their trail. I doubt he knew they were hiding in the crypts; it sounds like was just honouring the memory of his innocent charges beyond their rightful station.