[ADwD Spoilers] Ashara Dayne

[Mark3]

Also I would add that Barristan thinks Ashara killed herself because of a miscarriage. Well, if Brandon is the father, the latest the miscarriage could have come was sometime during the war - she can't be pregnant for well over a year. Ashara is still alive when Ned returns Dawn to Starfall a while after the war's conclusion. She kills herself sometime following this meeting, not the miscarriage. IMO, it seems more likely that she did it because, in addition to the miscarriage, the man she loved and father of her lost baby had just killed her brother (and was now married to another woman).

Ned's honor is, IMO, the only real atgument against a Ned/Ashara coupling at Harrenhal. But, first of all, for all we know he did ask for hand following that - or at least had every intention too. And here's Harwin's take on it (talking to Arya):

"Aye, Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now. I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say. Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm inn that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

[Lost Time]

You bring up a good point mark3 and that's the issue of the timeline. Her conception should've happened a decent amount of time after Harrenhal. Harrenhal was a year (or even two) prior to Robert's Rebellion which itself lasted for a year. So there's no way she conceived at Harrenhal with a Stark.

So I do wonder whose baby she was carrying...

[MinDonner]

Barristan didn't say she killed herself immediately after miscarrying, though. It could just have sent her into a long spiral of depression which wasn't acted on for some time after, while still being the direct cause.

[jack88]

IMO Ned's honor is all I need to think he wasn't the one that got down with Ashara Dayne. AFAIK he was thinking about how his honor was only tested once, which led to him thinking about Lyanna and her promise. Ned's honor is never "tested" twice, it's only ever tested once.

[Ygritte]

You bring up a good point mark3 and that's the issue of the timeline. Her conception should've happened a decent amount of time after Harrenhal. Harrenhal was a year (or even two) prior to Robert's Rebellion which itself lasted for a year. So there's no way she conceived at Harrenhal with a Stark.

So I do wonder whose baby she was carrying...

She could have conceived at Harrenhal by either Stark, it's just that she has to have given birth well before her suicide or her "suicide." So in either case, she killed herself not just because of the miscarriage but after some other things piled on top of it: her brother's death and either Ned's jilting or Brandon's death. (And, if there was a switcheroo as proposed on another thread, and the baby killed at KL was actually Ashara's baby, then that would have been a factor as well, but I don't think it's necessary.)

[Lost Time]

She could have conceived at Harrenhal by either Stark, it's just that she has to have given birth well before her suicide or her "suicide." So in either case, she killed herself not just because of the miscarriage but after some other things piled on top of it: her brother's death and either Ned's jilting or Brandon's death. (And, if there was a switcheroo as proposed on another thread, and the baby killed at KL was actually Ashara's baby, then that would have been a factor as well, but I don't think it's necessary.)

Possibly, but for her to even be apart of the Jon Snow's mother rumors, any conception should've happened a decent amount of time after Harrenhal - pretty much just right before the rebellion officially got underway. If this is true, then the miscarriage happened sometime in the late middle-ish of the war. And then just a few months later she learns of her brother's demise and Ned's departure of her.

If she had gotten pregnant at Harrenhall, which was at least a full year before the rebellion, I just see those Ned Stark baby rumors with her popping up a looong time before they really got underway.

[Ygritte]

Possibly, but for her to even be apart of the Jon Snow's mother rumors, any conception should've happened a decent amount of time after Harrenhal - pretty much just right before the rebellion officially got underway. If this is true, then the miscarriage happened sometime in the late middle-ish of the war. And then just a few months later she learns of her brother's demise and Ned's departure of her.

If she had gotten pregnant at Harrenhall, which was at least a full year before the rebellion, I just see those Ned Stark baby rumors with her popping up a looong time before they really got underway.

True, but IMO, there really aren't any Ashara-Dayne-was-Jon's-mother rumors. Sounds crazy but hear me out.

Edric Dayne thinks Ned and Ashara were in love...and yet he's still certain it was the nurse, Wylla, who actually had a child by Ned. He thinks Ned loved Ashara but boinked Wylla.

The only person who actually thinks Ashara is Jon's mother is Cat, who is relatively isolated at Winterfell and has based her hunch on a rumor that Ned and Ashara were in love, a rumor that doesn't actually have a baby in it until Cat infers it. Cat's guessing, because that's the only person she's heard of Ned having a relationship with.

And if Ashara danced with Ned but boinked Brandon at Harrenhal, then got pregnant but didn't marry, I can totally see why the rumors attached themselves to the wrong brother. There is a rumor that Ned and Ashara were in love. There is a rumor that Ashara had a child out of wedlock. It's common knowledge (correct or not) that Ned had a bastard by someone. Cat is the only one we've seen put all these things together and come up with Jon. And I think it's because she's pretty isolated and maybe doesn't even know Ashara had a stillborn, non-Jon baby nine months after Harrenhal. She heard her husband had a sweetheart, she knows her husband had a bastard, and she puts them together.

None of the other rumors about Jon say anything about Ashara; they're about Wylla or the fisherman's daughter.

[Mark3]

True, but IMO, there really aren't any Ashara-Dayne-was-Jon's-mother rumors. Sounds crazy but hear me out.

-Snip-

Cat is the only one we've seen put all these things together and come up with Jon.

No - Cersei has heard such rumors too. She says to Ned in AGOT:

"You've a bastard of your own, Ive seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? Was it for the brother that you slew, or the child that you stole?"

[Ygritte]

No - Cersei has heard such rumors too. She says to Ned in AGOT:

"You've a bastard of your own, Ive seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? Was it for the brother that you slew, or the child that you stole?"

Ah, OK, I stand corrected. (Still think it was Brandon though.)

[zathras]

The latest theory is that Lemore (the septa who is in Connington's/Aegon's party) = Ashara.

So who knows, we'll get to get some revelations from that POV.

Or her and Selmy meet at some point.

[Bad Wolf]

I just wanted to point out that 'stillbirth' and 'miscarriage' are not synonyms--generally 'miscarriage' means losing a pregnancy before it's viable, and 'stillbirth' is usually used to refer to a full term baby that is born dead. (It can be used, a little more generically, to refer to any fetus that died in utero, which is when the usage starts to blend in with 'miscarriage,' but they don't automatically correspond.)

I'm not pointing this out to be nitpicky, but because I think when talking about whether or not Ashara killed herself, I think the distinction is important. Miscarriages can be devastating (although I've also know women who have shrugged them off), but they're a loss of potential. A stillbirth is the death of an actual child, even one that never breathed, one whose limp body you can hold in your arms and that moves it up the loss scale. Ashara lost a child, potentially a lover to either death or marriage, her brother, and saw the realm torn apart by war, the world she knew lost. I'm not sure when Ashara allegedly committed suicide in the timeline, but she also might have known that the princess whose lady in waiting she had been had been raped and murdered, her children also murdered. Small wonder she might have given in to despair (and, also, timing-wise, have made sense for it to be after a period of many months as the tragedies mounted and she spiraled into depression rather than immediately after her child's birth).

That said, I still find it suspicious, because GRRM is tricksy, and the series is full of faked deaths and false identities. But if you look at it in human terms, her committing suicide is more than plausible.

(That said, on the cracked pottery side, I am haunted by Barristan's thought that Dany has Ashara's eyes...but I can't think of any way for that to be more than a passing remark without severely stretching credulity. Arthur Dayne + Rhaella = Dany? :P)

[dragomort]

Barristan got the story from Arthur, right, who hears it from his sister or those around her? Everyone acts as though he knows what happened there, but he's getting his information 2nd hand at best from at least a biased source, it's worth noting.

There's likely more than a bit of truth in it, but as far as reliable... It would be like Doran taking the word of Gerris as told through Myrcella on what happened with Quentyn's proposal as absolute fact. A few things just might end up slipping in there.

[corbaekin]

Also - Ashara likely would not have known she was pregnant right away. That takes a few weeks usually, no? Ned might have had every intention of marrying her, or asking for her hand, and perhaps he even gotten approval. However, once the war breaks out, the match is impossible - Ned is one of the leaders of the rebellion, and there is no way Dorne can oppose the crown. Plus, Ned needs the Riverlands and has to fulfill the marriage contract after Brandon's death.

Oooh, wait a second. Here's an idea. What if Brandon Stark was the one to do this? Had premarital sex with Ashara Dayne, but thought, hey, it's not such a big deal, I can have the marriage alliance arranged later. He wouldn't necessarily have thought that she would have gotten pregnant after having sex the first time, and it would take some time for her to let him know about it all. She can't send a raven. "Hey, I'm pregnant by all that sexity-sex, breaking your vows, that we did!" when it's likely to be read by the Maester. Overland delivery of letters would take a loooong time, even assuming she had someone she trusted enough to relay that message. Brandon Stark, meanwhile, keeps trying to work on his father to get the Tully match annulled, but again, figures he has lots of time...until Rhaegar grabs Lyanna (which has to be sometime /before/ the rebellion, for the rebellion to exist at all). That's when the Daynes realize that Ashara is pregnant by one of the Starks, the Starks who are about to get in /some/ sort of conflict with Mad King Aerys, and decide to lay low for a while-not to try to get a marriage to a possibly uncertain house, assuming that if it clears up they can do it later. The rebellion starts, and it's all screwed up. Brandon is killed, and then Brandon's little brother kills her brother.

[Eddard Stark]

Brandon was promised to Catelyn in AL 276 (when Cat was 12 according to AGOT), so by the time Harrenhal rolled around, he knew he was going to get hitched to Catelyn. At that point, it would have been rather odd for him to be sleeping around and make a potential scandal. Especially at Harrenhal, in the River Lands.

I've got to say that Wylla+Ned makes little sense if he loved Ashara Dayne. I also don't see how the timeline can work out, since presumably he would only have encountered Wylla at the end of the war, yet Jon was at Winterfell when Catelyn arrived there.

Furthermore, how did Ashara Dayne manage to avoid getting killed in the sack of King's Landing? She was a companion for Elia, so presumably she was in KL, unless she had fled back to Starfall.

I also agree that Arthur Dayne might have concealed the truth from Selmy.

Anyway, very little of this seems to make sense honestly...

[corbaekin]

Furthermore, how did Ashara Dayne manage to avoid getting killed in the sack of King's Landing? She was a companion for Elia, so presumably she was in KL, unless she had fled back to Starfall.

I imagine her getting pregnant out of wedlock would have decreased her "moral standing" and thus eligibility to be a companion/lady in waiting. Ostensibly, you wouldn't want immoral ladies giving your queen/lady immoral ideas.

[delete this account pls]

People, people, don't any of you have brothers?

There is no contradiction at all between the idea that Brandon was a jerk and a douche and Ned didn't like him, and Ned loving him. That's kind of how brothers work.... I don't like my own little brother one bit. But I do love him.

[Lady Blackfish]

I agree that the mentioning of Ashara Dayne's child has more to do with taking Ashara out of the running as Jon's mother. Whoever sired the child did not do so at Harrenhal (chronology issue) and if it's Brandon, didn't he die too early to be the child's father later as well? And also, if Brandon + Ashara = baby, why the hell do we even care? And I doubt Martin will now go on to reveal her as having had two babies, this daughter plus Jon. So it's only relevant as a disqualified alternative theory to R+L=J, IMO.

Part of me still hopes Ashara is some globetrotting loyalist espionage expert instead of yet another tragically romantic unattainable Byronic beauty, but my corner is, as usual, lonely.

[Lady Blackfish]

Edric Dayne thinks Ned and Ashara were in love...and yet he's still certain it was the nurse, Wylla, who actually had a child by Ned. He thinks Ned loved Ashara but boinked Wylla.

Wait, I thought Edric was saying that Wylla was Jon's nursemaid, not mother. I don't think the Daynes necessarily think Wylla is Jon's mother/Ned's babymama/whatnot based off of that.

[Ygritte]

Wait, I thought Edric was saying that Wylla was Jon's nursemaid, not mother. I don't think the Daynes necessarily think Wylla is Jon's mother/Ned's babymama/whatnot based off of that.

“How do you know about Jon?”

“He is my milk brother.”

“Brother?” Arya did not understand. But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”

“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

“Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name.” Arya gave Ned a wary look. “You know her? Truly?” Is he making a mock of me? “If you lie, I’ll punch your face.”

“Wylla was my wetnurse,” he repeated solemnly. “I swear it on the honor of my House.”

“You have a House?” That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a house. “Who are you?”

“My lady?” Ned looked embarrassed. “I’m Edric Dayne, the...the Lord of Starfall.”

So he's saying that Wylla was Jon's mother but Edric's wetnurse, and since she nursed both Edric and her own supposed son, that makes them "milk brothers."

[Lady Blackfish]

Ahh my mistake, thanks!

Oh and regarding Brandon being a douche -- yes kind of, but I got the feeling that he also was motivated to hide it in the right situations. For a guy who supposedly so loved the sight of blood, he was pretty merciful towards Petyr Baelish, taking off his armor to make it a fair fight, urging him to yield before he had to wound him, etc. Interesting internal contradiction in that character, as I see it. Honestly what first came to mind was that his presentation might've depended on the "kind" of girl he was around, whether or not she was the "kind" you take home to mother and all that.