MyDogIsNamedDanerys Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I was under the impression that he had little choice. I had thought that he and his men had found themselves in a predicament (surrounded by Yunkai? or some such) and turned so as not to have to fight his way out. Maybe I am wrong on that one.To me it sounded as if Ben realized Dany was not the leader he thought she was and chose to desert for that reason. Remember he says to Tyrion "Money isn't everything..." Hanging in the air was the implication that even mercenaries can't fight well unless they believe in the cause. Brown Ben Plumm believed in the cause of Daenerys, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains. He did not believe in the cause of Daenerys, Mother of Slaves, Chainer of Dragons. The moment she lost him was when she admitted to him that her dragons were out of her control and could not be used to destroy the Yunkish fleet.The moment she will win him back is now - now that Plumm knows she has mastered Drogon, she will regain his loyalty. And this moment was the moment for Jorah as well - see how beaten and destroyed he was at the beginning of this chapter, and how ready he is to fight again after hearing about Dany riding Drogon. He knows she is alive and has finally seized her destiny again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Snow Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Tyrion's storyline has been deeply disappointing in ADWD. This final chapter underlines that all splendidly. He is stilla nice character to read about, but my Lord does he storyline meander in this book. The only chapters I liked was when he emt Griff's company, and GRRM quickly made an end to those.Yes, but Tyrion is the man to get Dany and Young Griff together. He knows that Young Griff is really Rheagar's son (and has a better claim to the Iron Throne than Dany). But Dany has the dragons that they will need to conquer Westeros and The Others (not necessarily in that order). Young Griff will have a base of operations and a secure place for Dany to land, between the Stormlands and Dorne. Dany has a fleet of over 50 ships coming to her that can help her and her unsullied (and the Second Sons?) get to Westeros. Dany's problems may be that she has 2 "suitors" that want to take a dragon each for themselves. (Victarion and Quentyn) Will either be successful? Will both be successful? If they are successful, what will they do with the dragons? I'm thinking that Victarion will end up killing Quentyn to be able to claim a dragon by blood and fire. (Or it may end up the other way.) But it does seem like we're going to have a confrontation between those two pretty soon, and the winner may well then join forces with Dany. And Tyrion may be the man that can figure out how all of these parties can work together. GH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_In_The_North Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 To me it sounded as if Ben realized Dany was not the leader he thought she was and chose to desert for that reason. Remember he says to Tyrion "Money isn't everything..." Hanging in the air was the implication that even mercenaries can't fight well unless they believe in the cause. Brown Ben Plumm believed in the cause of Daenerys, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains. He did not believe in the cause of Daenerys, Mother of Slaves, Chainer of Dragons. You really think that a sellsword turned his cloak because he didn't believe in the moral goals of his master? The Yunkai'i are slavers. Do you think he said to himself "That woman chained her dragons. That's immoral, I should probably side with the slavers once more"? No. When he said that "money isn't everything" he didn't mean that he only serves those whose cause he believes in so long as they have the money, but that he always sides with the winning side. A sellsword doesn't fight to the death for money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Bread Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Yep, I agree that Plumm only cared for his life, it was pretty obvious after Dany abandoned the idea of using the dragons and there were no other options to break the siege after that. It's pretty similar to back then when Bronn refused to fight for Tyrion against Gregor. At some points even sellswords wouldn't risk their life for a probably great reward.People are writing here that this was the last Tyrion chapter, really? I just don't know, that seems like a strange ending to me of his arc for this book. I hoped we would at least get into Meereen, not necessarily meet Dany. Bah, Penny is annoying, someone feed her to the dragons. I would like to see what Tyrion is plotting to pull off the turncloak, especially because Meereen/Dany wouldn't trust the Second Sons so quickly, since they betrayed her already once.Oh, and Tyrion, I see what you did there, stealing Bronn's sellsword lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyDogIsNamedDanerys Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 You really think that a sellsword turned his cloak because he didn't believe in the moral goals of his master? The Yunkai'i are slavers. Do you think he said to himself "That woman chained her dragons. That's immoral, I should probably side with the slavers once more"? No. When he said that "money isn't everything" he didn't mean that he only serves those whose cause he believes in so long as they have the money, but that he always sides with the winning side. A sellsword doesn't fight to the death for money.I don't mean "moral goals" - but rather "morale goals". Ben knows his company isn't going to perform very well if they think the cause is a lost one. Maybe we're saying the same thing. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Heh. I was rereading an ACOK Tyrion chapter where he is feasting sellswords to whom he has promised knighthoods if they win the battle. After the party (throughout which they got drunk and called each other Ser) Bronn told Tyrion that they would kill for that knighthood but don't ever think they'd die for it.This situation with Ben made me think of that a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_In_The_North Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I don't mean "moral goals" - but rather "morale goals". Ben knows his company isn't going to perform very well if they think the cause is a lost one. Maybe we're saying the same thing. :PI don't think we are.You said that Ben no longer believes in Dany's cause so he deserted her. Well, whatever he believes, that's irrelevant. He didn't desert her because he no longer identifies with her cause, but because he thought she's on the losing side. She might be able to pay him more gold, but he would still die all the same, and he cares about his own life more than gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elundin Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 I liked Tyrion's story arc. However, let it be said that I was promised action nearing the end of the book and all I received was boring long descriptions and chapters that were stretched longer than belief without real reason other than setting an atmoshpere I think. Tyrion's adventures in the East could have lasted, like, 4 chapters less and they'd be still as rich in content...Really.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I'm just glad that Jorah is getting back to himself, but can we say goodbye to Penny please?I figure the next we'll see of Tyrion is when the Second Sons turn their cloak at the coming battle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Unsullied Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I really have to say that Ben Plumm changing allegiance for the first time didn't sound like sense.Although there is a coalition arrayed against Dany, we keep reading about how pathetic Yunkai's army really is. And Dany has unsullied, who actually won a battle agains dothraki that outnumbered them. So, they should be a match for the current besieging army ( yunkai+sellswords, i believe) even without dragons. And since the enemy is now outside the gates, there's less chance of the city rising in revolt.Agreed - plus remember that the flux is ravaging the camps outside of the city, deteriorating the forces even more. O and although nobody knows it, they may be getting whacked upside the head with some "iron" floating in from the sea :spank: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanyStark Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I have not looked ahead but man it would be so COOL if Tyrion is The Queen's Hand. As far as Tyrion's storyline being boring- I don't think that will ever happen even if what's going on around him is dull. We always have his inner thoughts and true feelings in those lovely italics that make it worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost the direwolf Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 So based on the last few sentences in this chapter, when Tyrion and Jorah are talking, Tyrion mentions that he's aware they're on the losing side, what with The Second Sons still supporting Yunkai, and that he means to change that. My guess is that Tyrion, master of words and wit, will somehow convince Plumm to turncloak again and rejoin Dany's cause?? Is this way too implausible? I as well got the same impression and i think he will do i and they will go back to Mereent . I cannot wait to see it in the next book. love Tyrion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Agreed - plus remember that the flux is ravaging the camps outside of the city, deteriorating the forces even more. O and although nobody knows it, they may be getting whacked upside the head with some "iron" floating in from the sea :spank: I think Brown Ben Plumm (like Dany, for that matter) though the Coalition against her was more powerful than it actually is. On the face of it, it's an immense Coalition, comprising Yunkai, Mantarys, Qarth, Tolos, and New Ghis, plus the mercenaries. At the same time, there's an enemy within Mereen. And, there's a fleet coming from Volantis. But, the Yunkish army is useless (something Plumm would surely know) , and the flux is raging among the besiegers, whose discipline has gone to pieces (New Ghis, and mercenaries excepted).(something which he didn't know when he switched sides). And, none of them know that Victarion is about to annihilate the beseiging fleet. So, switching sides was logical for Plumm (he plays to avoid defeat, not to win), and switching sides back again will also be logical (although Dany might want to take his head if she returns in time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledlevee Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I actually think it's fairly obvious where this is going to me (though GRRM rarely does the obvious, so we'll see), and I think Tyrion has proven himself to be an amazing character. He's one of the few characters who always seems to be in control of his situation and knows how to play the pieces around him, regardless of his situation. Maybe the others would be Littlefinger and Varys (who I'm certain we haven't seen the last of). So it looks like his plan, now that he has the second sons, is to bring them and Ben Plumm back to Dany's side, and thereby hopefully win Dany's alliance. Instead of being just a member of the family who helped bring about her father's downfall, he now is bringing her a small army to help her cause, and he can still tell her about how he killed his father and hates his sister. We'll see how Dany reacts, but having the second sons with him helps. So once he gets Dany's help, his plan seems to be to help her win the throne of Westoros and then himself be granted Casterly Rock for the help he gave her. Then he can pay back the sellswords. Seems like a good plan to me and so far its working. Better than most people could come up with if they were slaves and their master was dying of the flux. All that being said, it would seem almost crazy for Dany to trust a man from the family who killed her father, another man she sent away in disgrace from her court, and a band of sellswords who already turned sides against her once. Especially with the beware of the lion prophecy and her still wondering if someone else is going to betray her. She is desperate I guess, but we'll see. PS: I don't think Tyrion will have the Queen's Hand chapter. Way too much would have to happen and there's not enough book left (especially with the pace this book has taken so far). I think Quentin or Selmy is more likely to have that chapter, unless it's a new POV like Skahaz mo Kandaq or Daario possibly. I guess I'll find out soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forelver Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I guess I felt a lot differently than most people about the Tyrion chapters. I'm still not down with what he did to Tywin and Shae but I really liked his storyline in this book. I thought it was amazing how he kept getting out of bad situations and always has a joke at hand. Worried about Penny though, it looks like she may be getting sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrionthebest Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I guess I felt a lot differently than most people about the Tyrion chapters. I'm still not down with what he did to Tywin and Shae but I really liked his storyline in this book. I thought it was amazing how he kept getting out of bad situations and always has a joke at hand. Worried about Penny though, it looks like she may be getting sick.Why are you feeling bad about Tywin ? He deserved to die 100 times for what he did . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forelver Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Why are you feeling bad about Tywin ? He deserved to die 100 times for what he did . I was feeling bad that Tyrion did those murders and had to go on the run and have a price on his head and live with the guilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leo Targaryen Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Tyrion had by far the most disappointing story arch! I was really annoyed by his boring chapters where nothing happened, and in the end it didn't pay off at all!Dani's chapters were also boring, but at least she got to ride a dragon and who knows what else (haven't finished yet)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plem Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I'm getting the feeling that Tyrion and Dany won't even meet in this book anymore. Dany is God knows where and Tyrion's arc seems to have come to an end. What the hell? I have suffered through countless pages of Tyrion's boring chapters, assuming that a meeting between him and Dany is where we're heading and now I'm starting to realize that this is not at all the case. I really hope I'm wrong, otherwise this has got to be the most disappointed I have ever been in ASoIaF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crown Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Good way to set up his story for the next book, but I understand that people find his story-arc disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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