[ADWD SPOILERS] The Kingbreaker

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Wait so Barristan was in love with Ashara, not Queen Rhaenys?? I am so confuse.

And YAY I AM SO GLAD THAT ASHARA AND NED WERE REALLY LOVERS! YESYESYES! So happy!

I always hated how everyone claimed that Ned was too honorable to ever have an affair. Ned was a human being, too, not a robot. He loved, and he DID dishonor himself.

I think this does kill N+A=J though since now we have confirmation that she was pregnant by Ned, but that her child was stillborn.

[Brewmaster]

Wait so Barristan was in love with Ashara, not Queen Rhaenys?? I am so confuse.

And YAY I AM SO GLAD THAT ASHARA AND NED WERE REALLY LOVERS! YESYESYES! So happy!

I always hated how everyone claimed that Ned was too honorable to ever have an affair. Ned was a human being, too, not a robot. He loved, and he DID dishonor himself.

I think this does kill N+A=J though since now we have confirmation that she was pregnant by Ned, but that her child was stillborn.

Actually it wasn't confirmed at all that Ned and Ashara had a relationship. In fact, the leaving out of his name leaves it purposefully ambiguous

[indiesque]

Wait so Barristan was in love with Ashara, not Queen Rhaenys?? I am so confuse.

And YAY I AM SO GLAD THAT ASHARA AND NED WERE REALLY LOVERS! YESYESYES! So happy!

I always hated how everyone claimed that Ned was too honorable to ever have an affair. Ned was a human being, too, not a robot. He loved, and he DID dishonor himself.

I think this does kill N+A=J though since now we have confirmation that she was pregnant by Ned, but that her child was stillborn.

Yes, as many have said before, Selmy only said "Stark", not "Ned Stark". And as far as Selmy knows, the child was female and stillborn, but as we've learnt from GRRM by now, unless a POV sees something first hand, it is by no means certainly the truth...

And I think the general theory regarding the Stormlands knight that Queen Rhaella (Rhaenys was Rhaegar's daughter) was in love with was Ser Bonifer Hasty, now the leader of the Holy Hundred.

[metr0man]

Just finished this chapter... amazing tense chapter. But I'm pissed Barristan didn't kill the "king". I fear that right there will be his undoing. There's still time to die... :\ I hope not.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Yes, as many have said before, Selmy only said "Stark", not "Ned Stark". And as far as Selmy knows, the child was female and stillborn, but as we've learnt from GRRM by now, unless a POV sees something first hand, it is by no means certainly the truth...

What is this noise? That is such ridiculous BS. It's Ned Stark Barristan is talking about. We have them dancing at Harrenhal. We have Ned angrier than he's ever been when Ashara is brought up in conversation. We have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any other "Stark" is associated with Ashara Dayne. It's Ned. Anyone who thinks otherwise is IMO living in a dream world.

Yes maybe the kid wasn't stillborn, but the kid was Ned's, or at the very least they were lovers so he could have been. Full. Stop.

And I think the general theory regarding the Stormlands knight that Queen Rhaella (Rhaenys was Rhaegar's daughter) was in love with was Ser Bonifer Hasty, now the leader of the Holy Hundred.

Who the hell is that? And why on earth was Barristan so loathe to speak of it? It sounded like it was pretty darn personal in that Daenerys chapter. She says something like "he sounded as if every word was torn from his soul" o rsomething similarly dramatic. Why would he be so upset about some lord we've never heard of?

[indiesque]

First of all... why the annoyed tone and language? I was simply stating some fairly widely spread theories which are simply possibilities (or things we can't yet know for sure one way or the other).

What is this noise? That is such ridiculous BS. It's Ned Stark Barristan is talking about. We have them dancing at Harrenhal. We have Ned angrier than he's ever been when Ashara is brought up in conversation. We have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any other "Stark" is associated with Ashara Dayne. It's Ned. Anyone who thinks otherwise is IMO living in a dream world.

Yes maybe the kid wasn't stillborn, but the kid was Ned's, or at the very least they were lovers so he could have been. Full. Stop.

It's in some of the other threads as well. There is a fairly popular theory that it may have been Brandon rather than Ned, as he has already been shown to be un-hesitant about deflowering young highborn maids.

Main thread (don't click if you haven't finished the book)

Who the hell is that? And why on earth was Barristan so loathe to speak of it? It sounded like it was pretty darn personal in that Daenerys chapter. She says something like "he sounded as if every word was torn from his soul" o rsomething similarly dramatic. Why would he be so upset about some lord we've never heard of?

Yes, it's pretty clear that Ned and Ashara had something going on, but the child may not have been his. May, or may not. ... Well you can read the thread for more ideas, or we can all just wait to find out :)

Ser Bonifer was featured in a couple of chapters AFFC - he leaves Kings Landing with Jaime to take Harrenhal from the remnants of Gregor's and Vargo Hoat's men, and Jaime leaves Ser Bonifer and his men to garrison the castle, after which he then rides to Riverrun to lift the siege there.

Here

In the Dany 7 thread, someone points out that:

"I don't think it can be him, considering he beat Prince Rhaegar in a joust at Storm's End. So, he certainly didn't put away his lance. "

Here others mention Ser Bonifer: thread (don't click if you haven't finished the book)

Here: post + thread (don't scroll after clicking if you haven't finished the book)

Yeah.. so.. of course there is no full confirmation as yet, so we shall see :)

[Silverin]

What is this noise? That is such ridiculous BS. It's Ned Stark Barristan is talking about. We have them dancing at Harrenhal. We have Ned angrier than he's ever been when Ashara is brought up in conversation. We have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any other "Stark" is associated with Ashara Dayne. It's Ned. Anyone who thinks otherwise is IMO living in a dream world.

Yes maybe the kid wasn't stillborn, but the kid was Ned's, or at the very least they were lovers so he could have been. Full. Stop.

Who the hell is that? And why on earth was Barristan so loathe to speak of it? It sounded like it was pretty darn personal in that Daenerys chapter. She says something like "he sounded as if every word was torn from his soul" o rsomething similarly dramatic. Why would he be so upset about some lord we've never heard of?

ASoS Bran chapter:

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf... but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

I guess after that the white sword was Selmy (or her brother)

red snake: Oberyn

lord og griffins: Connington

And here we have the connection between Ashara and Brandon, he was the one who went to her to ask her to dance with his brothe

[All-for-Joffrey]

Both Davos and Theon's supposed deaths from previous books have turned out to be false

We were never led to believe that Theon was dead. We always knew that Ramsay Bolton had him captive and was flaying him. Right before the Red Wedding, Roose Bolton presents Cat and Robb with a sliver of skin from Theon's pinky.

[freakinmayhew]

"This coward is about to kill you, ser." How awesome was that line?

The fight actually reminded me of Bronn vs. Vardis Egan from AGOT only in this case it's the armored fighter that wins rather than the unarmored one.

[QueenPeanut]

Hi. This is my first post, but I noticed something in this chapter that no one seems to be talking about, while I thought it was the most fascinating part of it, so I figured I'd dip my toes in. If it is being discussed somewhere and I missed it, I apologize.

Barristan thinks at one point:

"With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together."

1. Why would Aerys WANT to make Rhaegar meet great lords if he feared betrayal?

2. What on Earth is Varys' game? If he wants a Targaryen on the throne, why was he apparently sowing discord when there actually was one there?

[indiesque]

Hi. This is my first post, but I noticed something in this chapter that no one seems to be talking about, while I thought it was the most fascinating part of it, so I figured I'd dip my toes in. If it is being discussed somewhere and I missed it, I apologize.

Barristan thinks at one point:

"With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together."

1. Why would Aerys WANT to make Rhaegar meet great lords if he feared betrayal?

He doesn't. I read it as - Aerys feared that Rhaegar had conspired with Whent to organise the tourney at Harrenhal so that he could meet up with as many great lords as possible away from Aerys' observation, knowing (or thinking) that his father would not be in attendance (as he hadn't left Kings Landing in so many years)

2. What on Earth is Varys' game? If he wants a Targaryen on the throne, why was he apparently sowing discord when there actually was one there?

Not sure of Vary's exact motivations here - when are we ever? However, Varys claims that he wants want is best for the realm, therefore, Targaryen or not, he may have viewed the mad Aerys as unfit to rule .. perhaps he wanted Rhaegar on the throne instead.. we can't know for sure right now

[QueenPeanut]

He doesn't. I read it as - Aerys feared that Rhaegar had conspired with Whent to organise the tourney at Harrenhal so that he could meet up with as many great lords as possible away from Aerys' observation, knowing (or thinking) that his father would not be in attendance (as he hadn't left Kings Landing in so many years)

Ohhh. *slaps forehead* That makes so much more sense. Clearly I need some lessons in reading comprehension.

Not sure of Vary's exact motivations here - when are we ever? However, Varys claims that he wants want is best for the realm, therefore, Targaryen or not, he may have viewed the mad Aerys as unfit to rule .. perhaps he wanted Rhaegar on the throne instead.. we can't know for sure right now

I guess that's a good explanation as any, though making the paranoid king think his son is conspiring against him seems like a good way to get the son killed, not the king deposed. Of course, I suppose maybe this is just Barristan's opinion, and Varys is innocent as a little lamb (...ok, that's unlikely).

[Windchaser]

From all the other hints and snippets I've noticed I am personally of the opinion that Ned did have a child by another woman, Ashara Dayne. But as the child was a girl (as Barristan stresses) and stillborn, it can not have been Jon. Call me a full-time subscriber to the R+L=J theory as of now.

I'll have to poke at the thread theorizing that Brandon did the deed with Ashara, but right now the easiest solution is Ned+Ashara = stillborn girl.

So, that means Jon has to be Lyanna's. It would be such a neat and tidy swap for Ned, claiming Jon as his bastard (people might have noticed him paying special attention to Ashara) with his own bastard dead. The Wylla cover story might have been to preserve Ashara's honor after she killed herself.

Anyway, I really hope Barristan survives the book, he's such an interesting POV.

Varys motivations and reasoning have always been a mystery to me. I wonder if that will always be true...

[Domenceus]

One thing that struck me was how Barristan pretty much laid out the cynicism of Westerosi society towards marriages based on love, rather than arranged for politics/power. None of them seemed to go well, and the people involved made poor decisions because they were so emotionally involved. It gives some nice depth to an attitude that could be seen as heartless or even cruel in brokering partnerships with little appreciation for love.

I also like his musing on whether he could have prevented all of this clusterfrak with a tourney win. It reminds me of several other characters thinking similar things. What it does is show how complex the situation was leading up to the start of the first book; everyone had a role to play, even if seemingly insignificant at the time. And we see similar things happening with the current generation of characters. "All this has happened before, and will happen again."

[Nina]

One thing that struck me was how Barristan pretty much laid out the cynicism of Westerosi society towards marriages based on love, rather than arranged for politics/power. None of them seemed to go well, and the people involved made poor decisions because they were so emotionally involved. It gives some nice depth to an attitude that could be seen as heartless or even cruel in brokering partnerships with little appreciation for love.

I also like his musing on whether he could have prevented all of this clusterfrak with a tourney win. It reminds me of several other characters thinking similar things. What it does is show how complex the situation was leading up to the start of the first book; everyone had a role to play, even if seemingly insignificant at the time. And we see similar things happening with the current generation of characters. "All this has happened before, and will happen again."

Congratulations! You have translated my thoughts, even disapproving the attitude of some characters, if we get use empathy, we must to admit just that, the people made ​​poor decisions because they were so emotionally involved. Who has never made ​​a bad decision?

Because of that I can sympathize with R + L and others anti heroes.

[A Redeemed Hound]

But what of Wylla? And what about that fisherwoman who said Ned left her pregnant and she called the baby Jon Snow. And Edric Dayne who said he and Jon were milk brothers and Wylla was the mother of Jon?

Nothing is certain yet. But the stillborn girl was certainly another twist in the plot.

I do not think it was Brandon Stark either because Ned was the shy wolf who asked Ashara to dance in the Reed story of the Harrenhall tournament. And the rumors of Ned and Ashara were well known in Westeros.

UGH!!!!!!

[ThinPaperWings]

What if the dancing was the source of the rumors? Selmy actually knows the scenario--Ned was too shy to dance without Brandon's intervention. But what's easier to see to all gathered is just that Ned and Ashara are dancing--therefore the legend is born.

Given what Lady Dustin tells Theon about Brandon, I think it's just as likely that Brandon fathered Ashara's child and Ned had to clean up the whole mess. He may have ended up using it to his advantage. We all know he has 'lived his lies,' so there has to be more than just R+L=J that he concealed. He could very well hate it that being Ashara's lover was part of his cover story. He hates that he had to represent himself that way, but he does it for Lyanna.

Is there any consensus on whether Septa Lemore could be Ashara Dayne? I haven't compared what we learned about her appearance in this chapter with the earlier Tyrion chapters.

I didn't think about the contrast between the Selmy fight and the Bron fight, but that's a great observation. They mirror each other quite nicely. I was sort of hoping Selmy would finish off Hizdahr, because we know justice don't really show up in any court in Westeros (or Essos), but he is an honorable guy.

[serdog]

Also notable Barristan call Lyanna his(Rhaegar) lady when thinging of there love my lady his lady most often refers to wives rather then mistress just a thought

[Urien the Ragged]

But what of Wylla? And what about that fisherwoman who said Ned left her pregnant and she called the baby Jon Snow. And Edric Dayne who said he and Jon were milk brothers and Wylla was the mother of Jon?

i think that wylla was a wet nurse by profession and posed as jon's mother for a short time. it could be that jon was ashara's child with ned, and wylla was actually the one who had the stillbirth and the children were switched.

ashara felt so bad about giving the child up that she jumped into the sea. or maybe she didn't. why would she have given the child up? would be the real question. perhaps it's better that the child was seen as more base of birth than the child of the lord of winterfell and a lady of starfall. essentially, he would be of more noble birth than robb, and perhaps riverrun and winterfell needed the marriage and alliance, which would have been ripped apart by the child being highborn.

[Tammy]

What is this noise? That is such ridiculous BS. It's Ned Stark Barristan is talking about. We have them dancing at Harrenhal. We have Ned angrier than he's ever been when Ashara is brought up in conversation. We have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any other "Stark" is associated with Ashara Dayne. It's Ned. Anyone who thinks otherwise is IMO living in a dream world.

Yes maybe the kid wasn't stillborn, but the kid was Ned's, or at the very least they were lovers so he could have been. Full. Stop.

Who the hell is that? And why on earth was Barristan so loathe to speak of it? It sounded like it was pretty darn personal in that Daenerys chapter. She says something like "he sounded as if every word was torn from his soul" o rsomething similarly dramatic. Why would he be so upset about some lord we've never heard of?

Although it is an interesting thought that Ned and Ashara were lovers, and I wouldn't blame him if they were - from what we've learned he did seem taken by her and maybe even loved her, there is no definitive indication from the text that they were lovers or that Ned fathered her child.

It could be Brandon, as we know from Lady Dustin he wasn't shy about taking what he wanted. So, it's not a stretch to even think that it could be Brandon's child Ashara had, especially since he intervened on behalf of his brother.

However, according to the text, we don't even know if a Stark fathered the child. All we know is that she was dishonored at Harenhal, she became pregnant, and supposedly had a stillborn girl. Whether or not she's still alive and is Septa Lemore is yet to be determined. (Although I'm not convinced that she is. Jon Connington danced with her as well, and although he calls her Lady Lemure in his internal dialogue, one would think he would think of her by her real name. I guess the argument could be made that he's been living with her as Septa Lemure for so long that he's come to even think of her by the fake name.)

I haven't read the rest of the book so maybe this is clarified in a later chapter, but what if neither of the Stark's dishonored her though? Barristan wonders that if he had won and crowned her the queen of love and beauty, "might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" It doesn't say anything about Ashara having sex with a Stark, but perhaps she looked to him after what happened? Maybe she confided in him when Selmy would have liked to be the one to be there for her?

I realize that from the way he's thinking about it that it's seems pretty clear that he means looking to a Stark as in she was dishonored, but maybe it's something else?