[ADWD Spoilers] RAGE

[Dragonstar]

Yeah, I think the key to this whole book is frustration. The characters are frustrated and readers too. Story arcs go nowhere. Tyrion wanders around - no idea what the point of his getting kidnapped really was. Dany loses control. No one reaches her except Quentyn and he dies. Jon dies.

Jon is one of my favorite characters and for him to die that way, i'll actually be more frustrated if he is resurrected. I mean how many people thought to be dead are brought back. You just can't keep doing that. Some people just get to stay dead, and at this point, for the sake of the integrity of the series, I hope he just stays dead.

Also, Aegon back from the dead. I mean... come on!!!!!!

No Howland Reed - frustrating too.

All in all, love the writing style - Tyrion chapters especially so. But in terms of moving the story along, this was another book of creating set pieces for the finale.

Stil

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

Alternate titles that might have fit better.

"A Storm of Cliffhangers"

:bowdown:

[The Bronze Wyvern]

I clicked on this thread, having finished the book an hour ago, mainly because I was interested in what people thought about the Jon thing...my initial reaction was the same shock I felt when Ilyn Payne took Ned's head off and at the Red Wedding...I had to read the paragraph back four or five times. Then I started thinking that he would survive, maybe through Melissandre's agency, so that he sees the truth of her power etc...you know, "Jon, R'hllor healed you, you must see the truth" etc...am I gutted to have to wait to find out what happens to him? Yes. But enraged? No. To get upset about fake deaths at this stage is stupid, I mean, Bran, Arya, The Hound...we know GRRM likes to do that. Plus, the next volume is called The Winds of Winter- we always knew that was when The Others would be coming. What kind of story is there if they DON'T get past the wall? As for Stannis, isn't it obvious that Ramsay is trying to tempt Jon into a trap with information gained from Mance? Last time we saw Stannis' army they were still nowhere near Winterfell and were burning men to get the luck to get there. Ramaay probably figures that Stannis has frozen and that the other danger (since he sent Mance and the SW to free "Arya") is Jon, so works out a cunning way to get "Arya" back and get Jon good and dead.

As for the rest of the complaints, I must say that I think they're a bit extreme.

Dany has learnt to ride Drogon and is about to get her revenge on the Khalasars who left Drogo's. Then she'll probably come back and Drogon will waste the Yunkaii. All good as far as I'm concerned.

I admit that Tyrion didn't need to be kidnapped twice, and basically having the entire Catelyn in the Eyrie storyline repeated with Jorah and then Ben Plumm...but anything involving the little man is entertaining to read. He'll meet Dany in the next book- which is fine.

Theon's chapters were fantastic. I was most looking forward to seeing the political situation in the North and we saw plenty of that. The redemption of a broken man was wonderfully done, too. We saw lots of Ramsay, lots of Roose, found out some great things about Northern history and the back story. Win.

Davos' chapters were my favourites. The situation at White Harbor was absolutely fascinating.

Quentyn- poor lad. I felt so bad for him. I really wish he had tamed a dragon, but then there wouldn't have been the tragic ending.

Victarion's chapters were great too! I thought he was going to die of that wound, but then they fished the red priest out the sea, thankfully. Do I want to see an epic sea battle? Yes. But we'll see it later, be patient (again!).

Bran, wow. WE GOT CONFIRMATION THAT THE TEC IS BLOODRAVEN! I mean, surely people are pleased that their theory was correct?

Asha- the first one was great, the second one not so great, but the ending where she recognised Theon was brilliant.

Barristan's POV was a pleasant surprise to me, not as stuffy as I feared.

Mel's...didn't enjoy that greatly, I must say, but it wasn't bad, necessarily.

Arya...never was a fan of her POV anyway, but hey, she's becoming a Faceless Man like everyone wanted, be satisfied!

Jaime, yes, I get the complaint there, one chapter and then off he goes with Brienne. The stuff with Tytos Blackwood was good though.

Areo's stuff was good, I enjoyed the Dorne stuff in AFFC as well, though I know I'm in a minority on that one.

Cersei's chapters were satisfying in that the cliffhanger was resolved, though not as dramatically as I thought.

Jon Connington's last chapter was fantastic. Emotional return to Griffin's Roost and all. He was a really interesting POV, and again, Aegon was switched, like everyone had speculated, weren't you excited by that?!

Overall, once I got through the first few chapters (all of which I'd either read before or had read spoiler reports of) I was completely enthralled. It's a fantastic book, which sets up The Winds of Winter to be the cataclysmic, battle filled novel you obviously all yearn for. Yes, the long wait for ADWD was frustrating, but equally, in a painful kind of way, I quite enjoy the anticipation and debate which precedes each release! It's a rich, rich volume and one I am certainly looking forward to re-reading.

I hope Jon hasn't died though. I really do.

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

I liked the Jon chapters or the Northern chapters in general.

But I suffered reading Danny (I expected this) and Tyrios (I was really disappointed about this) chapters.

The book missed a real end. I would be ok, if I could go to the shop and by the next one, but waiting years before I get the answers is kind of frustrating.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

For me, it's not rage but frustration. With a book this long I was hoping for a battle, but that wouldn't have been the highlight.

I was expecting Tyrion to meet Daenarys.

I was expecting more dragons.

I was expecting more Bran.

I was expecting Victarion meeting Daenarys.

GRRM said that all the characters was in one place by the end of Dance, but Arya is still training in Braavos, Dany, Tyrion, Victarion and Ser Barristan are all scattered and isolated in and around Mereen.

Fortunately, the Dornish prince died, so he he doesn't need to clog up the next book.

Jon. If he does come back (which I expect), I hope it's not another literal returning from the dead. A good badly wounded and left for dead scenario would be a nice change, being nursed back to health by Val and Mel. Since he 'died', he is now free of his Nightswatch vows. And while incapacitated, he improves his wargling skills.

I think Ramsey Bolton's letter to Jon was mostly a bluff. There was no way Theon and Jeyne could have gotten to the Wall in that time. I am now expecting the battle of Winterfell to be in the first third of TWoW.

[Dunnii]

Well, I'm just bored. I'm halfway through (I know this is a spoiler thread), and I just don't care much anymore. There are some wonderful little moments -- Rat Cook -- but that's about it. There is all this extraneous stuff. Where is the story?

I'm afraid I cannot finish it. I've invested a lot of time here but I'm beginning to not care. I have read ahead on certain character POVs (Jon/Reek/Theon/Bran) and I know about Jon and I just don't know anymore if I want to continue.

I mean, really, I cannot keep all the characters straight anymore! Too many details. Too many plots. Can you guys really keep all of it straight in your head? It's TOO MUCH!

Anyone see a movie with Michael Douglas called "Wonder Boys?" In the movie, Douglas plays a writer who cannot seem to finish his novel. He has TONS OF PAPER, and everyone talks to him about how he can't seem to stop writing. He admits he doesn't even know how the story will end and when asked why he keeps writing, he says, "I don't know how to stop." .... this movie is about GEORGE!

I'm sorry. I hope I don't piss off George's fans here, but this is getting ridiculous. This is not tight storytelling and you can't convince me that all this crap I've been reading in Feast and here even matters. Do we really need every single moment of Tyrion's journey?

/rant over/

I may continue, but I'm pretty frustrated right now.

[trio]

She's way past "sweet enough". She's ASoIAF's Jar Jar Binks.

That's hilarious. I think though we were handed a big clue when Tyrion felt her forehead or whatever and wondered if she had the plague. They're right in the middle of Plague City, having just spent days wiping the bloody arse (eeewwww....) of their master.

I'm presuming she'll be killed off pretty sharpish. Her role is over. I got the impression it was to show two things:

1. That Tyrion comes to term with his dwarfism rather than seething at it's injustice every chance he gets.

And

2. That Tyrion finally meets a woman he doesn't want to bone, and has a functioning and caring platonic relationship with her. That it was some sort of breakthrough in his "women/sex" issues.

Now some people have said that it means that Tyrion is repulsed by her because she's a dwarf => he is actually doing the opposite to No.1 and rejecting dwarfism more than ever, but I didn't get that impression, personally. I thought Penny was meant to be create a positive change in Tyrion, rather than a negative.

But either way, now her work is done - and she really has to go.

[Total Depravity]

Yes, and this. The expectations of readers were set high by the first 3 books of the series, I hope you also agree.

Wrong. Any critical discussion of the book elicits this comment from someone. There are some legitimately infuriating elements of ADWD that are not typical of GRRM's writing in the series, such as cliffhangers. I don't mind cliffhangers, but I totally understand rage at a 10 year wait for substantial events involving Jon and Dany and Tyrion and not getting substantial characterization or plot movement.

The expectations from most people on the forums have been balanced. AFFC and ADWD was a giant clusterf*** for the narrative and I think his editor has done more to harm than help his recovery.

Anyway, my rage is this: the unexplained regression of Dany and Jon as leaders. It was horrid. I am fine if Jon dies. I am fine if mereen's plot treads water. But those two were not written anywhere approaching consistently with where we left them. Reread SoS and AFFC. They read like completely different characters. It was one of the most glaring examples of discontinuity of characterization I can remember.

It's not the authors fault that so many of you expected a C+++ book with ANY resolution.

FIXED. You are trivializing the issue. Their criticism is fair. Most people wanted a decent read, with some resolution.

It's hard for me to fathom why a slowing of the plot, some extraneous characters and too many cliffhangers is sufficient cause to abandon something you loved so much.

I think most people's real frustration relates to the horrible characterization of Jon and Dany. The fact that their odd regression happens during a stillborn narrative only makes it worse. Also, large sections of the book were just not well written. While other sections were great. Now I am not one of those leaving the series, but I understand the critical frustration, so do most of the reviewers from major publications. While they laud the series, most of them suggested GRRM fire his editor. AFFC and ADWD were a mess compared to the first three novels. GRRM has even said if he could go back and do it differently he would.

GRRM greatest gripe about LOTR is that Tolkien should have kept Gandalf dead. It cheapens the narrative. I'm not sure he is going to revive Jon. He'd have to go against years of quotes about how to write good fantasy. But I hope he does. If Jon dies that way, and it is dead dead, then I'd RAGE for sure.

It seems to me that Martin handled both the Winterfell and the Mereen battles with an eye to making the script he writes for season 5 of the HBO series that much easier.

I disagree. He has written battle scenes "off camera" and had relatively little scale to his conflicts from the get go.

[Marakesh]

If the first book was written in the way ADWD was would there even be a tenth of the people on this board here to discuss it? Would it be turned into a TV series? I can't imagine anyone believing it would. There are things we can mention like the chapters that serve as little more than travelogues. As has been brought up by others how long would GoT have been if we got Tyrions thoughts while waiting for his food (with a complete listing) at every inn from the Wall to the Riverlands? Then we get a vague paragraph to resolve the Brienne cliffhanger.

It was limp and lifeless writing for that, while eating, humping, and violence are where Martin puts most of his passion now. Not as part of human life, but almost eclipsing everything else. Gone are Cat's feelings for her husband and in are Ramseys hunting dogs. The sex strikes me more as male fantasy and pornography than real now. And Dany riding off with a throbbing dragon between her legs made me laugh. We have so much real, actual sex in this series did we need to go back to the older fantasy style of sexual innuendo? We used to mock things like throbbing swords and such as bad writing in older fantasy books.

And the repeated use of cliffhangers and supposed character deaths has just been done to death now. I'm immune to it, I had no feeling at all when Jon gets stabbed, and if writing stops making you feel anything then its not very good. I don't mind some of it, blind Arya and news of Davos death is fine, but the Brienne cliffhanger and Jon's stabbing strike me as desperation on the writers part to keep reader interest. Its like Martin has lost his confidence and is just latching on to cheap tricks. I would rather see Jon dead than come back now, but if that's the case its silly he has so much writing vested in him. It would have been better to threaten his decisions will go wrong (like Hardhome) or that Ghost might die. That we could believe might go wrong, but Jon dying I just don't buy.

I always found Dany's chapters to be the odd duck, but once she got the Unsullied and began conquering Slaver Bay my suspension of disbelief just got busted wide open with her. The series started tanking in SOS (although its closer in quality to the first 2 for sure). The whole plot line seems silly and I don't care at all about it. For something supposed to be about shades of grey how come we get heroes fighting slavery and for woman's rights and all this? It like 70's feminism or 19th century politics. What value do I get out of learning slavery is bad and women really can fully participate in society? Who's on the other side of that now? There's no modern subtleties to the feminism I can tell so it would've been better to focus on other things.

Oh yeah, one other thing - once the Stark-Lannister fighting resolved it feels like the heart has gone out from the series. Its what drove the first 3 books and Martin hasn't found a story line to replace it. Making up new innocents to be tortured by the cold, cruel world just doesn't work. I don't have as much invested in Theon, Quenten, et al to care as much. Neither does reverting old characters like Jon and Dany back to children. Basically, the chapters leave me feeling either bored or annoyed. We can come up with reasons we don't like something but it really just comes down to the fact that we didn't care for it.

Expectations were too high? That's just another way of saying this isn't the great fantasy series we thought it was, its mediocre now. AFFC at least didn't ruin the main characters it just felt like Tolkien had released the Aragorn romance epilogue as a novel in between The Two Towers and The Return of the King. All I can say is I will wait and see what the readers reviews of Winds of Winter are, the critics are clearly giving it good marks on past performance. I have more interest in the Dunk and Egg short stories as the writing quality is better there.

[Raksha the Demon]

I just spent 45 minutes writing a long post to this thread, and then got the SQL error message and had my post eaten. I don't understand why I'm always getting that SQL message here, but never anywhere else...

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Always copy your post before posting it Raksha.

[kour]

I really feel for those readers who waited 6 years for this. Wow. Just wow. I gave up on The Wheel of Time series for the exact same reason I'm beginning to lose hope for the ASOIAF series. The first 3 books were great, upstanding pieces of fantasy literature. I didn't get much enjoyment from book 4 but it had its moments. I love Jon, Dany, and Tyrion and since this book focused on them I thought I would love this book. After reading ADWD, the author takes 3 of my favorite characters and turns them and their adventures into something banal and ineffectual.

I thought for sure that Dany would make it to Westeros by the end of this book. What about this promised fight with the Others? Will that conflict be filled with endless scenes we won't see or get much background on?

Also GRRM needs to stop relying on these catchphrases repeating them over and over again. I seriously raged every time I read "You know nothing, Jon Snow." Practically every time he uses this phrase I'm lost because it doesn't even make sense in the context it's used. Less is more, please.

[wolfbird]

I don't understand why I'm always getting that SQL message here, but never anywhere else...

The board can't cope with the number of people here at the moment. I can't access my profile to upload an avatar, and I've gotten tons of sql errors.

[Raksha the Demon]

I've been getting the SQL message most of the day. So the SQL thing means that the site is having trouble with heavy traffic?

[Faranya]

I just want to stir up some trouble...

Who all is going to keep arguing that Arya didn't kill Dareon? :D

EDIT: Words are wind

Times that phrase was spoken by book

AGOT: 0

ACOK: 0

ASOS: 2

AFFC: 6

ADWD: 13

Seriously, I'm getting a little fed up with that phrase...

[iheartseverus]

I've been getting the SQL message most of the day. So the SQL thing means that the site is having trouble with heavy traffic?

Yep, exactly. Look up at the Help section--Ran just addressed the issue.

[wolfbird]

It would seem so. Before I registered I couldn't see avatars, signatures or emoticons, so I'm guessing they're turned off for non-members to lighten the load.

[papercut]

"omg there's so much snow" "omg Meereen's in trouble" "omg what are we going to do with these Wildlings" "omg how am I going to get to Dany" "omg there's so much snow" "omg Meereen's in trouble" "omg what are we going to do with these Wildlings""omg how am I going to get to Dany" "omg there's so much snow" "omg Meereen's in trouble" "omg what are we going to do with these Wildlings" "omg how am I going to get to Dany" "omg there's so much snow" "omg Meereen's in trouble" "omg what are we going to do with these Wildlings" "omg how am I going to get to Dany" "omg is Stannis really dead?" "omg those slavers are going to get what for!" "omg is Jon really dead?" "omg how am I going to get to Dany" The End

lol, too true. teh book waz teh suxorzzz

[LordCommanderBastard]

Apparently GRRM gets his jollies from cliffhanger endings and killing off his main characters. Comparing him to Tolkien is a joke, because Tolkien actually had a point to his stories. They were more than just beautiful language and well written chapters.

I agree with most that Jon will some how miraculously live, but this series has become a joke at this point. UnCat? UnGregor? UnBeric? UnJon? Cheap tricks to pretend Arya's blind to just bring her back in the next book with vision and no particular purpose? A Batman style ending only to have Brienne survive? Did anything happen with Arya or Bran that was significant in ADWD?

It's like he is lost and scared to finish the books. So instead he just fills it with Dunk and Egg type stories (characters meandering around westeros).

The only thing positive that came out of this book for me, is that I hope that he doesn't finish the next book and lets HBO finish the series. This is a case of I wish he hadn't written AFFC or ADWD. The first three books were far superior.

I have to agree on the Tolkien part, GRRM is not Tolkien. There are some characters actually not worth the paper they're in. In an interview, GRRM jokingly (i think) said that the reason he kills off so many characters was to make room for more. And the new characters are incredibly dull in comparison to those who've died which should have been developed. The books are getting too long, new characters getting more exposure and somehow the old characters are not getting enough relevance. I hate it when he does that. I have had issues with the Ironborn's POV and thank the seven he did not give the tyrells a POV because I hate them. argh! there are some character development though that I really like, jaime's and cersei's to be exact. GRRM made an about face and gave them redemption...enough to make me give them the grudging respect.

[Lord Davos]

This one did not bother me because I thought it was used in a really effective way. Throughout this book, Jon is making big decisions. Controversial decisions. Life-or-death decisions. He questions himself throughout the whole thing. I think the phrase works because it helps underscore his doubt. I guess some people don't like how a lot of the characters have their own little phrase like "Where do whores go?" or "If I look back I'm lost," but I don't mind them.

It seems like self-doubt is a pretty big theme in this book. Jon, Dany, and Barristan are all questioning themselves quite a bit.

I don't mind any of the ones that were mentioned, but "I'm just a young girl etc." made me roll my eyes whenever I saw it. <_<