[ADWD Spoilers] RAGE

[Axon]

I really enjoyed the politics and happenings in the North. Manderly is the best northern lord in my eyes these days.

Dany was slow. It should have ended with the Drogon scene....but nonetheless.

Arya was very interesting. Notice how quickly he advanced both her plotline and Bran's. Two and three chapters, respectively, but tons of growth for both.

Tyrion was meh. I enjoyed what I read, but was disappointed no Tyrion/Dany confrontation took place. I'm sure this is the decision GRRM was mulling over for years.

Theon was awesome. He's working his magic again.

The rest were solid.

[R_Thunder]

More questions than answers now.

Dany - 20 odd chapters of nothing important except her hopping on Drogon and flying off. Could have been accomplished in 3.

Jon - stupid cliffhanger. If he is dead, who of any importance will be the POV at the wall? Bowen Marsh? Laughable. Mel? Shes not of the nights watch. Jons chapters were good, I enjoyed him bringing in the Wildings, rebuilding the Wall, etc...but to have hid him assassinated by his own brothers and leave that as the ending was cruel. Especially considering how logn we waited for another Jon chapter.

Tyrion - loved his trip on the boat down the Rhoyne. Some of the best stuff to me. Joining the Second Son's was awesome too. Ill say good on him.

Victarion - love him, wish he would have smashed the fleet outside of Mereen before it was done though.

Bran - really 3 chapters? come on dude

Theon - great chapters, great arc, I actually like Theon, much like Jaime.

Arya - lets do something here already. She is not going to become a faceless man in time for the books to be done.

Griff - my new favorite character I think. At least he and Aegon did something.

[Damocles]

It seems to me that Martin handled both the Winterfell and the Mereen battles with an eye to making the script he writes for season 5 of the HBO series that much easier.

[Damocles]

I hope George takes these criticisms seriously....then, in TWoW we'll get a compact book, starting with the amazing events that should have been at the end of ADwD and ending with some sort of resolution and idea of the scope of ADoS.

I hope George doesn't go to 8 books. If he wants to make money, he can write novels in the Dunk & Egg series--or any other time in Westeros history--and we'll snap 'em up.

GRRM won't give a damn. This is all just to make ourselves feel better. The only thing he'll take seriously is that which comes from his editors. And I can't really say who is to blame, between him and them. Honestly, I think a large part of him is bored with the setting. I'm surprised in 2010, he finally sat down and perhaps spurred by the HBO series, punched this out at all.

[Howdyphillip]

It seems to me that Martin handled both the Winterfell and the Mereen battles with an eye to making the script he writes for season 5 of the HBO series that much easier.

I have taken up for GRRM on another thread about this, but I will do so again here. This book was not in any way pandering to a television budget. It may actually be the most expensive of anything that we have read so far to adapt. From the sheer number of locations (which is a far greater costs then a cg battle), to the additions of central characters being giants, big Dragons, and direwolves, and to the count of actors that it will require, there is no pandering to a budget here.

These battles were not discussed to bring about tension to the reader. Whether you agree that was a good idea or not is very valid, but to say they were left out for a TV series is absurd when taken in context with the book. This is not going to be easy to adept at all...

[History of Westeros]

But was it a high expectation that Dany would be if not on her way home at the end of ADWD, then about to depart?

Was it a high expectation that Tyrion and Dany would have met?

I don't think so.

As it is, TWOW is going to have this big chapter-eating Yunkai/Meereen war. But first, we're going to have to get a chapter or two of Dany winning back the Dothraki, and a couple of chapters of Tyrion figuring out how to play the Second Sons and bend them to his will.

Dany & Tyrion may meet after that point (though honestly, I'm not sure anymore), but if they do it's gonna take 2 or 3 chapters for him to get into her trust. After a heart-wrending chapter devoted to Superflous Penny dying. Oh, and let's not forget the Dany/Jorah reunion, and a pesky husband to dispose of, which could take a while.

More chapters whilst Dany agonizes about the fate of the Meereen after she departs, and lengthy discussions about which of the Meereenese should get the job, and the shape of the political system she leaves behind.

And then we're talking another while when they organise a loooooong and persumably precarious and adventure-filled voyage home. Dramatic ship-endangering storms aplenty, no doubt. God knows how many chapters that'll suck up.

OR they go the Demon Road, constantly referred to. And it turns into a dreadful, endless, dusty March of Death.

So my new prediction? That by the very end of TWOW, we'll be at the stage we thought we'd be at by the end of ADWD. Dany sailing towards Westeros. Tyrion too, either with her or seperately (still never having met her.)

I'm exhausted just thinking about it, frankly.

Those expectations are reasonable, but to have it ruin the entire series for a reader is near certain evidence of those expectations getting out of hand.

As for the notion that we still have a lot to get through before Dany goes to Westeros: *awesome*. The plot may lag but as long as the writing is good and the world rich and full of subtle detail, I'll still enjoy it. I'd prefer the plot to move more briskly, but my expectations are not pinned on that.

I love aSoIaF for many reasons, and I think most of you do too. Is the speed of the plot really that outstanding amongst all those reasons? Is getting to the ending soon that important? Put more harshly it sounds like some of you want this series to end sooner rather than later. That's just weird, IMO. The ending matters no more than the journey, if that much.

I'll say that after one read, Dance seems weaker than some or all of the other books (I may like it less after a re-read or two). But those books were super-amazing. If this one is merely regular-amazing, is that really enough to give up on it? Even if you think Dance is only "ok" it seems crazy harsh to just quit. Even if you think Dance is bad I think it's weird to quit, unless you weren't that into the earlier books. (unlikely if you're on these forums ;)

This all said, my purpose with these posts is to provide perspective, obviously people can love or hate the books for whatever reason they choose.

[History of Westeros]

I have taken up for GRRM on another thread about this, but I will do so again here. This book was not in any way pandering to a television budget. It may actually be the most expensive of anything that we have read so far to adapt. From the sheer number of locations (which is a far greater costs then a cg battle), to the additions of central characters being giants, big Dragons, and direwolves, and to the count of actors that it will require, there is no pandering to a budget here.

These battles were not discussed to bring about tension to the reader. Whether you agree that was a good idea or not is very valid, but to say they were left out for a TV series is absurd when taken in context with the book. This is not going to be easy to adept at all...

Yes, I think many didn't think this complaint thru. (like so many others).

Also I'm in the camp that believes there was no battle at/near Winterfell. Ramsay's letter is largely a bluff. (I do think he has Mance).

[awesome possum]

Unfortunately, George seems to have lost control of his story. He's fallen in love with his own creation so much that we get all these new POVs and chapters full of unneeded history. I don't know if he does it for himself or he does it for those few fans who are really into the history of this world more than the actual story. Regardless, I think he's lost.

The Mereenese Knot was supposed to be solved here, the Knot being how people make it to Dany. Only one person made it to Dany! And his story, in addition to mostly being pointless, was easily solved by having him cooked by Rhaegal. What about Tyrion? Victarion? ASoS ends with Dany deciding to learn to be Queen. We wait 11 years and what do we get? A scared, unsure little girl who is letting her heart lead her decisions. Dany's journey in the first three books completely undone. She goes from stately queen ready to take her dragons on a rampage to an incompetent little girl with a crush on the pretty man who says nice things about her. I realize she's still just a teenage girl, but FFS, did her journey mean so little that sitting in a pyramid for a few weeks unravels all she had become?

This whole damn book just seemed completely pointless. The five year gap was scrapped for this? A lot of wandering aimlessly or sitting in the same spot dealing with the rigors of leadership while ignoring the actual main plot of the story laid out in the first three books?

George has lost his plot. I truly hope he finds it again soon. I also hope we don't have to wait half a decade to see whether he has or not.

[trio]

I love aSoIaF for many reasons, and I think most of you do too. Is the speed of the plot really that outstanding amongst all those reasons? Is getting to the ending soon that important? Put more harshly it sounds like some of you want this series to end sooner rather than later. That's just weird, IMO. The ending matters no more than the journey, if that much.

I think you're misinterpreting what people mean when they bitch about how long stuff is taking now in the series.

It's not that we want everything to wrap up quickly - it's that there has been a noticeable change in pace from GOT. Which was full of rich detail, but also focused and sharp, and hurtling from one big event to the next.

That was the pace that thrilled us and sucked us in. This feels new, and a bit of a struggle.

I never thought I would get weary reading an ASOIAF chapter, I never thought I would fall asleep reading one, or worse, feel tempted to skim over stuff. (I did, I skimmed over all the Asha stuff, and a bit of the wildling stuff)

That is pretty worrying, when you've been amazed by these books for years.

[Ser Wun Wun]

3 days since reading it and that Jon cliffhanger still pisses me off. The stabbing itself doesn't upset me so much because I saw it coming a mile away. However, I did not expect Jon's entire arc in the book to end with that event. He could have at least covered the immediate aftermath of the event.

George could have cut 50 or so pages of food descriptions replaced it with suitable plot arc resolutions for Jon, Jaime and Brienne. These cliffhangers are really getting annoying. I was enjoying all of the book until I saw where things ended for so many characters.

And I'm pretty sure he has killed off my Wun Wun!

[kingkiller]

I wanted another Bran chapter. Also pretty sure there is no way Bran and the Reeds will make it back across the Wall at all, now that Winter is come. I hope Bran doesn't stay there and become the next version of that weird old dude.

Rage at the handful of typos. Early in the book there was a sentence that started "They north rode" which I think should have been "they rode north" or "the north rode" and also "Tormund Giantsbabe". There was definitely at least one more.

And the grey ink blots... did anyone else get those? Maybe it will make the 1st editions of the book more valuable in the future?

Rage at Penny, worst character ever.

Rage at the crybaby NW who has now assassinated two kickass Lord Commanders in a row, once because they were hungry and once because they were afraid of going hungry. May the wildlings slay them all except Edd.

[HarransRoast]

I wanted another Bran chapter. Also pretty sure there is no way Bran and the Reeds will make it back across the Wall at all, now that Winter is come. I hope Bran doesn't stay there and become the next version of that weird old dude.

Rage at the handful of typos. Early in the book there was a sentence that started "They north rode" which I think should have been "they rode north" or "the north rode" and also "Tormund Giantsbabe". There was definitely at least one more.

And the grey ink blots... did anyone else get those? Maybe it will make the 1st editions of the book more valuable in the future?

Rage at Penny, worst character ever.

Rage at the crybaby NW who has now assassinated two kickass Lord Commanders in a row, once because they were hungry and once because they were afraid of going hungry. May the wildlings slay them all except Edd.

Are you even serious? Penny is like one of the better characters ever. She has so much promise.

the only reason people are raging is because of the delay though. Had this book come out 4 years ago nobody would be complaining. It was always ment to be a companion piece to aFFC, and when the whole series is completed then nobody is every going to talk about how bad it was, more than likely nobody is going to even dislike aFFC. The main problem is the pacing. You wait seven years for something and all of your hopes get built up and then you feel like you got cheated becasue it's not a series ending magnum opus.

aDwD sets the ton for the next too books and as long as Martin actually starts writing and doesn't pull the same bullshit again then I'm fairly sure he can end the series with two more books and some Dunk and Egg stories. If you look at the Dunk and Egg novellas you can tell that it's not his writing thats suffering it's just that the story is so cumbersome that he has way to much to resolve while at the same time developing the charcaters he already has. If he comes out with WoW in the next 3 years I bet people will stop crying about the series all together.

[Lummel]

Rage at the handful of typos. ...was a ..."Tormund Giantsbabe". ..

I thought that was a joke - something that jon says to tormund to tease him?

[awesome possum]

I think going into this book I was really hoping that by the end I would be like "OK, I can see why this took so long."

After one reading, I cannot really see that. It makes less and less sense to me, so I'm disappointed on the one hand.

On the other hand, I still cannot wait to see what happens next.

I agree. I still enjoyed being back in this world even if I didn't enjoy every part of the story. I'll definitely pick up the next book the day it comes out.

I feel hungover today, though. And the sad thing is, it's not a hangover where I can at least look back at the night before and say I had great time. It's one of those hangovers that leaves me wondering why I drank so damned much.

I don't think the disappointment comes from having too high of expectations, as some people are suggesting. It comes from having any expectations at all. The only narrative arc in this book that I felt satisfied by was Theon's, which shows just how dissatisfying everything was.

Of course, this is just the first read. I sped through the book like nobodies business. I'm hopeful that an eventual reread will change my mind. I'm beginning to think it might be wiser to stop being so invested in the main story and just to start enjoying the world and it's histories.

[kingkiller]

Are you even serious? Penny is like one of the better characters ever. She has so much promise.

the only reason people are raging is because of the delay though. Had this book come out 4 years ago nobody would be complaining. It was always ment to be a companion piece to aFFC, and when the whole series is completed then nobody is every going to talk about how bad it was, more than likely nobody is going to even dislike aFFC. The main problem is the pacing. You wait seven years for something and all of your hopes get built up and then you feel like you got cheated becasue it's not a series ending magnum opus.

aDwD sets the ton for the next too books and as long as Martin actually starts writing and doesn't pull the same bullshit again then I'm fairly sure he can end the series with two more books and some Dunk and Egg stories. If you look at the Dunk and Egg novellas you can tell that it's not his writing thats suffering it's just that the story is so cumbersome that he has way to much to resolve while at the same time developing the charcaters he already has. If he comes out with WoW in the next 3 years I bet people will stop crying about the series all together.

Overall I thought the book was awesome, no complaints there. I love GRRM's writing style as well.

As for the wait, I'm a fairly new fan to the series and have been waiting only a year or so.

Concerning Penny, I don't have as much rage as I do indignation. But rage is the title of the topic so I went with it. Here's why I don't like her:

1- One second she's ready to gut Tyrion in the middle of the street.

2- Then she just won't talk to him on the boat.

3- Then she's clearly falling for him and wants him to take her beloved brother's place in their show. I know eventually Tyrion HAD to joust with her for survival's sake, but she wanted him to do it way before that.

I do feel very bad for her as she's probably the most innocent character in the entire series next to pre-aSoS Sansa. I also have a sinking suspicion she's fodder for GRRM to kill off to make Tyrion even more miserable.

The only way I see her becoming an awesome character is if she really does still hate Tyrion and want him dead. She just realizes that he is her best shot of surviving and getting home. Then once she's back in Westeros or somewhere similarly safe, she turns on him.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

I'm sad that so many people were so disappointed in it. I really enjoyed all the chapters honestly. I guess I'm easy to please, and I don't mind cliffhangers, plus I hadn't been waiting for the book as long as others, so all those factors probably helped in my enjoyment. I've also learned that I'm apparently in a very tiny minority in which I enjoyed reading about Essos and the cultures there just as much as I do Westeros. Hopefully TWoW won't be too long in coming and will really knock it out of the park for everyone. :)

[ipsuel]

<snip>

Rage at Penny, worst character ever.

<snip>

Lol, agreed. I think the Penny thing was so cliche. Her character is sweet enough, and I could live with no harm coming to her but pleeeeeease GRRM, in the next book, get her off-screen as quickly as possible. Have Tyrion send her off somewhere sweet to live out her days away from the stories in the book :)

[Raksha the Demon]

I think Penny will be around for awhile. I could see Tyrion eventually, after getting his name cleared of the regicide charges and being reinstated as Lord of Casterly Rock, having the marriage to Sansa annulled and marrying Penny as a final insult to his father and sister; especially if he becomes fond of Penny and has a good sexual relationship with him. But I don't think that Tyrion would ever fall in love with Penny; they only have their physical stature in common. Tyrion's too hung up on beauty. Although he did fall for Tysha; and she was a crofter's daughter; could it have been true love or a lonely boy's infatuation with a nice and cute young girl who didn't treat him like dirt? Even if Tywin hadn't intervened, Tyrion's relationship with Tysha may not have stood the test of time...I don't think we'll ever know. If Tyrion ever does find Tysha again, I doubt that she would be able to forgive him and start over again.

[mcb]

Lol, agreed. I think the Penny thing was so cliche. Her character is sweet enough, and I could live with no harm coming to her but pleeeeeease GRRM, in the next book, get her off-screen as quickly as possible. Have Tyrion send her off somewhere sweet to live out her days away from the stories in the book :)

She's way past "sweet enough". She's ASoIAF's Jar Jar Binks.

[The Rattleshirt]

She's way past "sweet enough". She's ASoIAF's Jar Jar Binks.

Nail on the head here mate, her character just felt to be exactly the same level of stupid/irritating as him. ;)