[ADWD Spoilers] RAGE

[Raiki]

There is a bunch of stuff I dislike in ADWD, but the thing that makes me cringe the most is whenever I had to read a "murder of ravens".

Murder of CROWS

UNKINDNESS of ravens

Yeah, GRRM, it doesn't sound as sinister, but at least it looks right when you see it on the page. If you are going to use the history, animals and descriptive jargon of our own world; you should get them right.

I thought it was a conspiracy of ravens?

[TheFrenchFish]

I thought the book was vastly entertaining but it left me wanting some answers and more of some POVs.

1) More Davos! We still haven't gotten confirmation on where is Waldo err Rickon! Why couldn't he have given us one more POV chapter?

2) Jon's final chapter was cruel. To leave us hanging like that.

3) I expected Tyrion to meet with Dany at least

4) Continuing on #3, the whole Mereeneese-Dany plot and various POVs were fascinating at first but never got anywhere. What was the point?

5) I was disappointed in Jaime's POV. I expected some details no?

6) I hope Ramsay Bolton's letter a lie (about Stannis and the battle). I wanted to see a battle not some word on what happened. If Martin kills my second favorite character (Stannis) in this manner, I will be severely disappointed.

Lot's of positives though, but this isn't the post for them :)

[Howdyphillip]

Amen brother.

ADWD is not anything close to worthy of a thread with the word " rage" in all-caps as the title. There are legitimate criticisms of the book, ones I had myself, but they are not served by hysteric childishness.

I can not disagree more, and this is coming from someone who LOVED the story. I truly enjoyed all of Quentyn's chapters, and would not wanted to lose one line of them. I enjoyed the politicking in Mereen and watching Danny's development into someone who can rule. I liked Tyrion's travelogue, and particularly enjoyed his relationship with Penny. I also found Jon's chapter's engrossing, and riveting. There is not much criticism that I have about what this book contains.

I am sure that I will reread it over and over again, but I also imagine that every time I read it, I will be angry at it's conclusion (at least until we have another volume to pair it with that will give us answers). Frustration an anger at this is not an act of "hysteric childishness". I feel like it is a perfectly understandable reaction. Especially since we have waited 11 years to see these characters, and do not know when or if we will see them again. After all, another novel is what is planned, it is not guaranteed.

All I am really trying to point out here is that being angry at the conclusion doesn't necessarily mean that you hated the book, and "RAGE" is a viable and understandable emotion to experience. If I hadn't loved this book, and this story so much, then I wouldn't care.

[iamthedave]

No rage for me, but at this point Martin's cliffhanger strategy seems both cheap and - at least in this book - weak.

Jon's dead. Maybe 1% of the posters here believe that he's going to stay that way. Almost nobody believes the letter is real, either. So two of Martin's major cliffhangers have no real bite to them, because we KNOW he's hoodwinking us and what's being suggested is 99% not true. And as for the Meereen cliffhanger... you have to care about Meereen for that to matter, and very little in Dance worked to make me care.

Coming in I only really wanted to see two things: Tyrion meeting Dany, and Dany learning to rule.

What I saw instead was Tyrion on a sightseeing tour and Dany floundering around like little Robert in a seizure. If the entire point of Dany's plotline was to have her master dragons... couldn't she have shown some interest in them? Tried to learn more about dragons, maybe? Sought out (even if unsuccessfully) some knowledge and/or literature on the subject of dragonriding?

Fortunately it had Theon, and I loved all of those chapters. But between two lame duck cliffhangers, several other cheap cliffhangers, not even the vaguest hint of an ending to anything, and several plotlines that go nowhere (no I am not swallowing several chapters just so we can go 'AHA! THAT PROVES A LINE IN A PROPHECY!!!!'), Dance feels really weak as a story.

Good writing, bad story.

[Davos' Middle Finger]

You make a fair point Howdyphillip, with further reflection I can indeed understand the strong emotion ADWD generates. It may have been unfair of me to condemn that so harshly.

[mav1234]

Honestly, I felt like the Meereen plots dragged on about half a book too long - it felt all together forced. :( I also did not like the Jon cliffhanger at all... mostly because it destroyed a part of the series for me to lose the last remaining good guy. I felt like I was watching a crappy episode of a TV show with how we have no idea if he's really dead, and since he's such a major character we can't expect him to be *really* dead, meanwhile there was absolutely no resolution of any of the major story arcs in the book... blah, I dunno.

I loved every page, but I still feel like it wasn't a finished book, despite how long it took.

[FuliginEyes]

I really, really enjoyed ADwD overall, and I had no problems with staying in Meereen and with the new POV's, etc.

The thing I did have a problem with was the cliffhangers. I understand some of this may be due to timing, but still... Davos being instructed to bring back Rickon, and then we find out that there are no more Davos chapters in the book... Jaime having one chapter only and at the end going off to meet UnCat (argh), leaving him in a very dangerous position... no (seen - and I really hope it hasn't happened yet, despite Ramsay's letter) battle for Winterfell... and then Jon's stabbing towards the close of the book... these cliffhangers are crazy... and really not necessary (unless it's an issue with timing, such as for Davos).

[Just Another Commoner]

RAGE at all Dany & Quentin & most of Tyrion's chapters, LOVE at Reek & Arya & Davos chapters...I'd say my overall feeling is "meh." :mellow:

[Ser Plissken]

I will say, though, things do need to come to an awesome conclusion.

I think GRRM should do what JJ should have done at the end of Lost.

All he needs to do is choose which direwolf...

That clip never gets old...

[Balerion the Cat]

No rage for me, but at this point Martin's cliffhanger strategy seems both cheap and - at least in this book - weak.

Jon's dead. Maybe 1% of the posters here believe that he's going to stay that way. Almost nobody believes the letter is real, either. So two of Martin's major cliffhangers have no real bite to them, because we KNOW he's hoodwinking us and what's being suggested is 99% not true. And as for the Meereen cliffhanger... you have to care about Meereen for that to matter, and very little in Dance worked to make me care.

The same for me. No rage, it is a very enjoyable book, with some story arcs really beautiful, but all this cliffhanger staretgy is really poor. I can understand everything, but that GRRM didn't complete the structure of a book (development, climax, denouement) sounds queer to me.

About Jon, everybody knows that he will not stay dead. Moreover in this interview, GRRM almost suggests the same thing:

[Chocolate_dream]

I really hope that Jon is dead, dead, dead.

If any of the dragons or Davos dies I'm gonna be pissed. They are the only ones I want to ride away into the sunset by the end of the series. Everyone else can die for all I care.

I hated reading Baristan chapters. GAWD why is he so slow? ou'd think that him being so old would make him wiser.

Half of Tyrion's chapters could've been cut out.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I was pissed when Jon died, but then I realised that not all charecters stay dead anymore.

I also raged when Dany rejected Quentyn, i think i said something like "Bitch" and Dany's one of my favorite charecters. Not becuase I like Quentyn, he was a pretty boring dude, but becuase then I realized she ain't going to Westeros. I think the exact moment was when Barristan said "This changes everything" and she was like "This changes nothing"

[The Marquis de Leech]

Murder of CROWS

UNKINDNESS of ravens

You're correct, of course, but I'm trying to remember where GRRM uses collective nouns.

[Happy Ent]

You're correct, of course, but I'm trying to remember where GRRM uses collective nouns.

Off the top of my head, there’s a fury of Freys and a pride of Lannisters. (I may misremember.)

[Syrio 4L]

Up until the moment when Barristan thought "not all men are made to dance with dragons" I really wasn't sure why this book was given this title.

Alternate titles that might have fit better.

"A Game of Dilly-Dallying"

"A Clash of Nothing"

"A Storm of Cliffhangers"

"A Feast for Pre-feasting"

"A Dance with Readers' Emotions"

"A Dance with Delay Tactics"

"A Dance with Dismay"

"A Dance with Disappointment"

I just finished the book yesterday, and "underwhelmed" would be a massive understatement. What was this "Mereenese knot" that GRRM has been complaining about grappling with for the last 5 years? Martin needs to hire himself a serious editor, get back to business, stop going to conventions and book signings for a year or two, get the fire lit in his belly again, and take care of business.

ASOIAF showed so much potential and promise, and although the last two books have been progressively frustrating disappointments, it's not too late. GRRM can still have a rousing comeback, start advancing the stalled storylines, stop relying on cheap plot devices and cliffhangers, and PROCEED WITH THE STORY!

[Svetlana]

I was pissed when Jon died, but then I realised that not all charecters stay dead anymore.

I also raged when Dany rejected Quentyn, i think i said something like "Bitch" and Dany's one of my favorite charecters. Not becuase I like Quentyn, he was a pretty boring dude, but becuase then I realized she ain't going to Westeros. I think the exact moment was when Barristan said "This changes everything" and she was like "This changes nothing"

I raged as well. It's to wonder if she really wants to go back to Westeros.

[Joy Lannister]

ASOIAF showed so much potential and promise, and although the last two books have been progressively frustrating disappointments, it's not too late. GRRM can still have a rousing comeback, start advancing the stalled storylines, stop relying on cheap plot devices and cliffhangers, and PROCEED WITH THE STORY!

From Martin's 'Not A Blog':

Uh... I have to say, I dislike the term "filler."

I would never include "filler" in any book.

I suspect that what some readers may regard as "filler" is what I would call "description" and "character development." Myself, I like descriptive prose, both as a reader and a writer. If a character is travelling through a forest, I want to see the trees, hear the wind moving through the branches, smell the sharp scent of pine sap, feel the branches scratching against me as I struggle through the undergrowth. Other readers (and writers) prefer just to say, "he travelled through the forest for three days."

It should go without saying that my own writing reflects my own preferences. I don't regard any of it as "filler."

If "advancing the plot" was all that mattered, we'd all be reading Cliff's Notes. Plot does not equal story.

Oddly enough, when Catelyn and Tyrion, and Ned, and Jon, and Dany, and Jaime, and almost every single character was traveling across the world in the previous books, somehow it wasn't all that important that we hear, feel and taste every movement of the wind or familiarize ourselves with the flora and fauna of every region they crossed. And, somehow, I still didn't feel as if I was reading Cliff's Notes.

I have the hunch that he has talked to someone with different writing style than him, or he had come to those ideas during the writing classes he leads and his conversations with other writers, and has decided to pretend he's something he isn't. For some writers, overly descriptive prose works. But if you have earned the love of your readership with three brilliantly written, fast-paced books that use more than ten different view-point characters (meaning, you can't be as descriptive as you'd have been if you had only one character with view point), it's probably a horrible idea to change the pace in the middle of the series and expect that your readers will just adapt to the sudden change.

I have nothing against slow-paced, descriptive books, but if a book starts slowly and the author tends to describe every little thing that happens in the hero/heroine's life, and in the last few pages the years and the important events just start flying by with less description than even the most mundane tasks were given in the first pages of the book, I'd consider the book rushed and unbalanced. The same way, if a series starts with three fast-paced books that mantain a certain balance between plot, character development and description, and then continues with books that have clearly zoomed in on personal, described in great detail character arcs, and have lessened the focus on the overall plot, I consider it badly written. I wouldn't have this problem with Martin if he had had this 'world-building is more important than plot'-attitude since the very beginning... Actually, I wouldn't probably have an opinion because I'd have given the series up because Ned and Catelyn spend more than half the book travelling to King's Landing with no plot in sight.

[dibek]

I finished the book a couple of days ago, and I am ENRAAAAAAGED! Ok, not that much, but come on :)

First of all, much like AFFC, it doesn't feel as though this book has a beginning, much less an end. It's sort of like GRRM wrote a book, then pulled out just the middle part and started selling that.

Not much happening, in fact everyone is as close to their goal as they were when the book started, basically. And then, right at the end, major stuff are happening, and naturally we have cliffhangers. Why is that exactly? Why do I need do wait another 5 or no matter how many years before I find out what's the deal with Jon, Stannis, Dany etc. Not to mention things that GRRM has been dragging since the beginning of AGoT (Benjen? Jon's parents? I understand he's building suspense or whatever, but come on, is 5000 pages not enough? At this rate, I'm like to forget who Benjen was to begin with!). And to those that are saying it's the long waits that's the cause of all this rage, I think it isn't. It's been little more than a year since I started reading the series, and what annoys me is not the year I've been for ADWD, it's the years i will have to wait for the next book to come out.

Another thing I don't get is the page wasting. He obviously needed to cut some material before the book went on sales (i heard something like 1500 pages for the manuscript)... I wonder what that material was and how irrelevent it was, since in the book we have a ton of pages saying nothing more than 'there is snow, its cold, Stannis is skinny and were eating our horses'. Then there is the Jaime chapter (only one if i remember correctly, what's up with that?), where he claims the castle of some random lord we've never heard of in a lot of pages, and then he wanders off with Brienne in about one sentence.

I'm also starting to get the impression that GRRM has so many characters that he cannot keep track of all of them. And yet, he keeps adding more and more. Then they die for some reason, not having even lasted through one book. I don't get it at all.

Then there's all the dying. It was all shocking and surprising in the first three books, but now I actually expect people to die. And... that isn't compelling, or interesting, or anything.

Some people might say that I'm ranting because the story didn't go like I wanted it to . Not so. I don't want anything specific to happen, but I do want SOMETHING TO HAPPEN.

So, to sum up this book in one sentence: Nothing happens, yet there is a ton of cliffhangers. Nice.

Other than that, it was an enjoyable read. Good writing an naturally, good characters. My favourite part was the fight between ser Barristan and Khrazz (or whatever). It made me sit up, I thought Barristan would die (as I'm so used to it :)).

[Restless]

ADWD is weakest book of the series :P

I wonder if my post will disappear. Again.

[wolverine]

ADWD is weakest book of the series :P

I wonder if my post will disappear. Again.

I liked it much better than AFFC, just annoyed by the non-resolution of a lot of threads.