[ADWD Spoilers] RAGE

[Nukelavee]

Joy - you may have hit the nail on the head regarding (at least MY) dissatisfaction with the book: the trade off from "fast-paced" to "immersive"

For myself, the terms impressionistic vs photo-realistic work, too.

I've always found GRRM's strongest story telling to be when he gives us the characters' impressions of things, as opposed to detailed descriptions, like in Tyrion's "battles" in the first books - they are flashes of teh whole, as opposed to , say, Stirling who would give us a 3 paragraph description of each hand to hand encounter. Martin has an amazing talent for being evocative, letting my mind supply the extra details, letting me unconciously tailor the scene to my own "likes".

DwD gives TOO much detail, and part of that impression is because the other books didn't. hmmm. That is, for example, Brave Danny Flint was a tidbit earlier that underscored the horrors that have occured in the past, but in DwD, he revisits the tale, repeating it, but with details. (and, personally, it didn't seem as horrifying when he explained it as when I tried to fill it in myself).

[rick-on]

Arya's blindness had a purpose. It was part of her training to hone in her other senses. Bran's chapters in ADWD were important too. He's going to take Bloodraven's place.

We aren't sure what's going on with Brienne, and we'll probably find out next book.

While I do think it would've been nice to bring some sort of closer to a few of the characters (such as Brienne and Jaime), the way the Dany and Jon chapters ended were pretty powerful. Especially Dany's journey through the Dothraki Sea.

The best book so far is probably the third. Of course, that was a bigger blood bath than ADWD. That being said, it seems like Martin's writing style has changed since AFFC. For the better, I think. For one, the prologue in ADWD was the best one yet.

I don't think comparing him to Tolkein is a joke, either. They both do a really good job at immersing the reader into their universe. They both have faced the same problem: each book is a continuation of the last one. Because of that, there is an issue finding a stopping point for each book. Tolkein may have been better as far as plot development went, but his characters were notably stale and underdeveloped compared to Martin. Martin's strength is making EVERY character three dimentional, even antagonists, to the point where even though we don't like them, we still feel for our enemies when they fail. Because of this, there seems to be more at stake with all the war, because no matter what side someone may be on, Martin reminds us that they are people with friends and family that will miss them. Tolkein's war was between good and evil, where good prevailed. Martin's war is more ambiguous, therefore more interesting.

By the way, I say this while being the biggest Lord of the Rings fan ever.

Because of the nature of the series, he must finish it. It's wrong to leave an audience with a story half-written.

David Gemmell is my ALL time favourite 'historical' fantasy author, he wrote fantastic, plot rich and complex stories AND he churned out high quality books about every 8 - 10 months or so! IF GRRM can't get his arse in gear and provide us with TWoW within the next 12 months, I'll........I don't know what I will do actually!

I agree with a lot of the opinions on here, The first 3 books were/are fantastic: as good as anything I have ever read in this genre, the last two have been largely dissappointing and the time taken to get them to us is a disgrace, it shows a complete lack of respect for his readers and a total lack of discipline on the authors part!

[CatrionaX]

Sadly, I have to agree with a lot of these comments, although I am only a little disappointed with ADWD. It's still an awesome, rich, detailed and imaganitive piece of fantasy writing. I didn't really enjoy AFFC so I was bracing myself a little for ADWD to be not as good as AGOT, ACOK or ASOS. I've also only had to wait 12 months as my husband only said "HBO are making a fantasy series, read the books" a while ago!

* Ned Stark's death was truly shocking. The Red Wedding was truly shocking. They really died. Then, Beric comes back, Catelyn comes back, now famous dead baby Aegon is back. Jon's death is a little bit shocking as unexpected but doesn't have the same impact now you know that some dead people don't really die. Multiple resurrections have watered it all down.

* The Brienne thing was awful. I wanted to know what word she shouted - I thought she might have shouted "Jaime" as she died. But she's back with no explanation.

* I think the point of Daenerys sitting in Meereen for all this time is that she has forgotten who and what she is. She is a dragon warrior queen and she has been ignoring her dragons and not warring. However, doesn't stop it being BORING and ANNOYING! She was my hero - now she's just silly.

* Jon and Quentyn - BORING!

In summary, not the best book but still better than most of the other crap on offer. x

[CrypticWeirwood]

The Brienne thing was awful. I wanted to know what word she shouted - I thought she might have shouted "Jaime" as she died. But she's back with no explanation.

Gosh, but aren't people demanding these days? What's wrong with a little 16-year wait? It's not like you've got anything else to do. Why in the world would be anybody ever be mad that Martin can't manage to finish a cliffhanger after more than ten bloody years?

Check back again in a decade or two. I'm sure there'll be something else he hasn't done yet.

[jormungandyr]

Not sure where else to put this but I gotta vent! Mostly because with the popularity of GoT I have 6 members of my family in various stages of reading the book (all people who ignored my recommendations since I read SoS a decade ago). So rather than spoil people who are just now finishing CoK, I will vent here.

I think I am done with Martin. I've been his biggest cheerleader amongst my circle of folks for a long time. Like most here, I fell in love with the story and world in the first few books. AFFC was a bit of a pill but I learned to lie to myself that it was on par with the previous 3 books.

After stewing on DWD for a couple days, I am checking out. I have reread the books about a half dozen times, spent countless hours on this site (when I should have been working), and took a whole week off of my job to read DWD.... And I agree with (what it seems like) most of the group here believes: the past 11 years have seen nearly no plot development.

Yes, you will have your rabid delusional super-marks who defend every nugget that GRRM throws their way and savor it like they are baby birds feeding from the regurgitated gullet of their parent, but I am done holding onto the past excellence of this series by pretending that the quality of the narrative is still there. SoS is probably the best novel I've ever read, but at this point I am just tired and wish I'd never read these books.

I have to give credit where it's due; It says a lot (to me) that I loved the original 3 books so fiercely that I have this strong of a reaction to what I view as their downfall, but I can't take the churn anymore.

Maybe I set my expectations too high.... Maybe I'm just in need of other forms of entertainment... Either way, I quit this bitch.

now THAT.... is calling for a three syllable OOOuuuu---ouuu---ch!

but VERY well said. you are totally right. ever since SoS (best book in the series IMO) we have been slowly let down and increasingly disappointed... his initial concepts and plot lines were quite memorable, but he is running out of ideas, created such a complicated plot that he is hopelessly confuzzled, and i think he dried up as far as resolving all the great stories he has started.... the milk has gone sour, folks!

i would dump his ass too, but i HAVE to see what happens next... and i HATE him for it.

he looks like a man who enjoys his cigars, fine rum and rich foods... at 64 years old i fear we may not even see tWoW published. on his death bed the f*cker better have a notary public at bedside to tell us all exactly what happens right to the conclusion of the epic... i am willing to accept an abridged form of what happens at this point.

[Ghost of Jon Snow]

I need to rage about Jon's death. It's not the death in and of itself I'm angry about. Death of a great character is acceptable if it advances the story. Case in point: the Red Wedding. What upset me is that Jon had to step so far out of character in order to make it possible for his Brothers to kill him. It was all so erratic: "OK I'm going to Hardhome to save a bunch of folk, oh wait never mind that I'll go seize Winterfell instead". We've already established that Jon will keep his vows; why back out now?

Jon's death is a cliffhanger: is he really dead? I don't think Martin needs to end his books with a cliffhanger. TV shows need cliffhangers so that the audience will return after the commercial break (or with HBO, so that the audience will continue to subscribe to the service). Novels do not need cliffhangers. Novels need a resolution. Martin's use of cliffhangers is becoming a little tired.

That said, I enjoyed ADWD and thought it was well written. I just needed to rage a little bit :bang:

[Lady of Long Lake]

I was furious about Jon until I found this forum:) I got about 2 hours of sleep the night I finished and was a blob the next day at work. I was beyond sad thinking that Jon was dead.

Initially, I thought I would never buy the next book. Then, I decided that I would buy the next book and scroll through the chapters and read it if there was a Jon/Ghost chapter.

But I know how it'll go. I'll see a Arya or Stannis chapter and have to read theirs and see who they are maiming. And the Davos and Jaime chapters. And I have to see what Sansa is up to and if perhaps read Bran's because he might be growing leaves and shit on top of his head now.

Sigh...okay the new plan is I will buy the book and read every chapter but Danys. If there is a Jon chapter in WoW, I will read Dani's chapters too as my peace offering to the Gods.

[iamthedave]

I need to rage about Jon's death. It's not the death in and of itself I'm angry about. Death of a great character is acceptable if it advances the story. Case in point: the Red Wedding. What upset me is that Jon had to step so far out of character in order to make it possible for his Brothers to kill him. It was all so erratic: "OK I'm going to Hardhome to save a bunch of folk, oh wait never mind that I'll go seize Winterfell instead". We've already established that Jon will keep his vows; why back out now?

Jon's death is a cliffhanger: is he really dead? I don't think Martin needs to end his books with a cliffhanger. TV shows need cliffhangers so that the audience will return after the commercial break (or with HBO, so that the audience will continue to subscribe to the service). Novels do not need cliffhangers. Novels need a resolution. Martin's use of cliffhangers is becoming a little tired.

That said, I enjoyed ADWD and thought it was well written. I just needed to rage a little bit :bang:

Oh, come on, do you REALLY think Jon is dead?

With all the hints that Jon is really Azor Ahai after all, the chances of him being gone for good seem to be about 1% (the 1 only being there because this is Martin and you can never be truly certain).

The cliffhangers were just bad this time. Most aren't even credible.

[HodorSaysHodor]

First, I cannot imagine being one of the fans who had to wait so long for this book. I'd be so pissed off! Like a few others, I saw the series on HBO and just had to read the books... and they were fantastic, one after the other. That is until I read AFfC. That book was just terrible compared to the first 3, but I understood that it had been split to coincide with ADwD, so I had hope. Just as I finished Feast, ADwD arrived in the mail.

Well, I'm even more disappointed with Dance than I was with Feast! I understood that these books happened during the same time, but that at a point in Dance, it would 'catch-up' and surpass Feast's timeline. But, there were never any real plot advancements - just more cliffhangers. Crappy cliffhangers. I don't know what happened, but with some major editing, both of these books could've easily been one good one. The "filler" content is enormous in the last two and it didn't need to be. I will patiently wait for GRRM to publish TWoW, but if they're anything like the last two, I'm done.

[Whatever]

. If there is a Jon chapter in WoW, I will read Dani's chapters too as my peace offering to the Gods.

this is great.

It's going to be my new sign

[The Oncoming Storm]

If the last Dany chapter would have been her coming back with a Dothraki army, flying on Drogon, and kicking some serious ass, I would think the book rocked.

And why couldn't we see the Battle of Winterfell when it was built up all book long? It could still leave a lot of cliffhangers if the POV passed out and didn't see who lives and who dies. But at least we would have some epic battle description.

[Sword in the Morning]

Jon Snow is dead. His spirit is lingering in Ghost. We won't get any Ghost viewpoint chapters. His body will be stored in an ice cell. The wall will be brought down by the horn of Joramun (which Sam is carrying). The Others will turn Jon's body, now exposed, into a wight. Jon wargs from Ghost into his wight body.

Enter UnJon, who lacks all of the warmth and innocence we liked in Jon, and is now the gray sort of character that Martin said he was becoming.

[Ghost of Jon Snow]

Oh, come on, do you REALLY think Jon is dead?

I didn't express myself very well. No, I don't think Jon is perma-dead. He'll be brought back by Mel or else become Coldhands version 2.0. What really upset me is that I felt Jon stepped so far out of character. I think Martin tried to portray Jon's honor slipping for various reasons (Arya, his disgust with the NW leadership). But, i don't think Martin was successful.

[gonzoaster11]

Jon Snow is dead. His spirit is lingering in Ghost. We won't get any Ghost viewpoint chapters. His body will be stored in an ice cell. The wall will be brought down by the horn of Joramun (which Sam is carrying). The Others will turn Jon's body, now exposed, into a wight. Jon wargs from Ghost into his wight body.

Enter UnJon, who lacks all of the warmth and innocence we liked in Jon, and is now the gray sort of character that Martin said he was becoming.

I have had very similar thoughts. Except for the horn thing. I think that'll play out a little differently. As soon as I read Jon's final chapter in ADWD, the first thing I thought was "He'll be back."

[Mara Jade]

Yep ADWD totally disappointing. Where to begin. It was just a bunch of shit to throw the scent off the trail and give us nothing we were looking for. All that about the Meerenese Knot, everyone going to Dany, so the solution is to have none of them reach her? What a cop out.

The writing is a shell, lacks detail, finesse, and only 3 chapters or so were exciting at all (2 of them Jon, 1 Drogon's return). Some things actually made no sense, I did not buy them at all (Tyrion would rather die by getting eaten by lions than face Selmy? PUH LEASE. His survivor instinct is too strong for me to buy that. Poor try George). Tons of pages so he can just throw things in like oops the horn of Joramun is actually still out there, I liked it too much, so BE AFRAID. Not to mention you noticed that the whole burning of the horn was handled so casually that it made you say "wtf?" that the fact that it's still out there is another eye-roll.

But who cares anyway if what GRRM really wants us to pay attention to is that Jon's thank you for his totally miserable life at command is basically getting killed (yea yea yea he's not dead with all the unresolved plotlines involving him like R+L, Howland Reed, Dany, but still). I am so angry about that chapter, not bc he "killed" Jon but bc it's just a completely bad writing idea. He's ruining TNW (how are they going to get out of killing another LC??), pulling another stunt where someone almost dies and then comes back to life changed, and repeating a plotline that's already been done of TNW killing their LC! I can just picture GRRM thinking, what is the most surprising thing I can do? Kill off one of our 2 main heroes! Forgetting that I already did that with Ned. I would have waited another few years for him to think of something better, or at least to clean up the writing.

It appears to me that writing a book basically made up of irrelevant twists makes this series even harder for him. I seriously hope this made it easier for him somehow bc I just can't see it. All this struggle, waiting for years for this book and I just don't buy it. All the tension and love and emotion between Jaime and Brienne that when they meet in this book they must be Northmen it is so emotionless and cold. Dorne comes to Dany with a parchment signed by her beloved Darry and she basically tells them to fuck off? She's supposed to be this smart khaleesi and I have never been so infuriated at her boredom. Perhaps PERHAPS if this was a mess made for Tyrion to clean up it would have been ingenious, but no, Selmy as Hand? That's going to turn out about as good as Ned as Hand which again, is another plotline repeat!

The series I think, needed to be 3 books, not 7 because he is just burnt out. I was never excited, never addicted as I was with the first 3 books. This book is a proper match for AFFC.

[Hound's She-wolf]

I didn't hate ADWD, but it is a pale shadow of the other books. When I first got the other books, I would stay up late and finish them in two days, then go back and re-read because I enjoyed them so much. ADWD, weellll, I have no such desire, I have read it once and am now, very slowly re-reading, trying to recapture the enjoyment and the "OMG, what is going to happen next" feeling.

The pace of the story has slowed to a crawl, I am bored to tears with the travelogue, the minute detail of food and the Meereneese knot. Really! The only food I cared about was the Frey Pie!

[JordanAllenik]

Don't get me wrong I like GM but sometimes I don't get him. He spends a lot of time describing food, snow, grass and sigils and all the unimportant and unforgettable members in the houses when he could use that space for advancing the story line. Also killing Jon was stupid coz we all know he is not dead so there is no shock value there.

I started reading the books two months ago and I'm already sitting here getting angry at the long wait. How do u guys sit patiently waiting for five or even six years? I'm scared I will forget about the series by the time the next book comes!

[Brucolac]

It helps the rage if you resign yourself to the fact he won't finish it and he is a different person and writer from when he started the series.

[Francis Buck]

The only thing that really made me rage at all was the lack of resolution (which, to be honest, I didn't really rage all that much about). Also I was pissed when Bran's chapters just fucking ended halfway through the book, right when he was suddenly becoming one of the top-five most interesting characters in the series. Same goes for Davos, but not nearly as much as Bran.

Jon Snow's death only bothered me for like five minutes (which is about how long it took for me to decide that he isn't actually "dead").

The lack of Tyrion meeting with Dany was also a little bit rage-inducing, though again this falls into the "non-resolution-of-basically-anything-whatsoever" category. I mean Tyrion's whole storyline in that book was leading up to him and Dany meeting. Instead he just rides around on a fucking pig in front of her or something, I don't even know.

Hell, the only character's storyline that actually had ANY resolution whatsoever was Quentyn, possibly the most bland and uninteresting Dornishman out of an entire family of bland and uninteresting Dornishmen.

Actually, this thread just made me realize how much I'm raging at stuff I didn't even realize I was raging about. Thanks OP.

[Cap Ou Pas Cap]

Teeth shattering. I realized that was the same as maiming a person, especially women. Because, nope, no replacement available. So when I read "teeth shattered to splinters", I just want to kick the person doing it or do something worse.