[ADwD Spoilers] All of the little things

[Arataniello]

Just something that struck me after reading about the Blackfyre Rebellion in The Mystery Knight:

When legitimised bastards in Westeros pick their coats of arms, they usually invert their Houses' colours.

House Stark's sigil is a grey direwolf on a white field. Inverting the colours would give us a white direwolf on a grey field.

White direwolf.

Grey. Scale. (This one is more of a reach, I admit, but even just the white direwolf is enough of a coincidence.)

DUN DUN DUN

Makes too much sense.

It makes no sense whatsoever. :worried: Wolves have scales?

[Arataniello]

I just put the pieces together.

There are three hints in DwD and one hint in the upcoming Dunk and Egg novel that has already been revealed.

Aegon V wargs into Rhaegar Targaryen as he is dying at Summerhall.

The proof wild-eyed, baseless wishful thinking is there. I don't want to ruin it for you guys, so you'll have to find it.

You've read the "upcoming" Dunk and Egg novel???

Great! Please share details of this "novel". Especially when it hasn't been written. And it's a short story.

[Akhôrahil]

Back in ACoK, the Walders explain this game to Bran and Rickon, in which one person controls a crossing over a stream, and another person tries to get their permission to cross. However, if the person trying to cross says "mayhaps" at some point during the "negotiations", then they get to knock the other player off the stream and take their place as the "Lord of the Crossing."

Fast-forward to ASoS. Robb is passing through the Twins so he can make it back North. During Robb and Catelyn's conversation with Lord Walder, he says "mayhaps" several times, soon before he betrays Robb and has him killed. The "mayhaps" thus acts as a bit of foreshadowing of Lord Walder's betrayal.

Likewise, Wyman Manderly saying "mayhaps" is his (or Martin's) way of turning the foreshadowing back on the Freys and the Boltons. Just a nice little detail for the readers, the sort that you usually don't catch until a re-read.

It seems like the Frey version of crossing your fingers when you lie.

The game is called Lord of the Crossing -- more like Lord of the Double-Crossing!

[Akhôrahil]

Ha! She's the real Dany!! Kidding, but still. Why the green braid? We haven't heard of any other northerners who dye their hair green.

The Manderly (heraldic) Merman has green hair. Could have something to do with that.

[Mother of Dragons]

In the epilogue, do you guys think Varys' children are The Children of the Forest? Or is it something else glaringly obvious I missed again? I have a feeling I'll appreciate this book more during the reread.

[serbrc]

In the epilogue, do you guys think Varys' children are The Children of the Forest? Or is it something else glaringly obvious I missed again? I have a feeling I'll appreciate this book more during the reread.

Do you mean the children that kill Kevan, or his "for the children" line?

The children with knives have been mentioned as far back as AGoT - they're Varys' "little birds", mute little spies. "For the children" is probably a metaphorical reference to the smallfolk and the good of the Seven Kingdoms in general, which Varys seems to think would be best served by installing Aegon/Young Griff as an ideal, benevolent ruler.

[serbrc]

i think everyone and their dog knew that one as of reading ASoS.

By the way, have we ever got the Queen's perspective on the not-very-secret affair between her husband and her favorite priestess? I wonder if she knows.

[Mother of Dragons]

By the way, have we ever got the Queen's perspective on the not-very-secret affair between her husband and her favorite priestess? I wonder if she knows.

I always found it odd myself. It appears like Queen Selyse might even be into it. Wasn't she originally responsible for bringing Mel to Dragonstone? Its obvious to everyone, maybe bc Stannis is king and "AA Reborn" she accepts it. Paramours don't seem to be a big deal in Westeros if you are the ruler (or a man). Remember Quentin's acceptance of Daario.

Mel appears to have seduced Selyse, anyhow, or at least glamoured her. Selyse reveres Mel like a goddess

[Mother of Dragons]

Do you mean the children that kill Kevan, or his "for the children" line?

The children with knives have been mentioned as far back as AGoT - they're Varys' "little birds", mute little spies.

Thanks for replying- I was referencing the actual children who killed Ser Kevan, much to my disappointment. He was one of my favorite minor characters. I still don't get why his story is over, maybe its to remove Cersei's last hope as an ally (with influence) from KL.

But back to my original question, yeah, I was wondering if those little birds/boys mayhaps were CotF instead. Guess not!

Isn't it interesting how both Varys & Dany both call their leal subjects their 'children'? Whooda thought Varys was such a hardcore Targaryen loyalist!

[samhaft]

Overall I'm disappointed with this book, but one of the things that Martin always does well is plant all kinds of little things that you don't notice at first that makes rereading the books a joy. Here's a list of all of the ones I've found that aren't always obvious to the first time reader (especially if you're dumb like me).

Two notes - one, you can amend the Jon Connington gay theory - GRRM directly affirmed this with a yes at a book signing in NYC.

Second, what's this about a Tyrion trueborn daughter and how are you coming to that? Esplain yoself.

[Mother of Dragons]

what's this about a Tyrion trueborn daughter and how are you coming to that? Esplain yoself.

Yessss, esplain yoself! Just another tidbit I di'int get! I must needs to post in the "idiot thread" with all the others who learned more about the book from the forums than from actually reading it!

[Stormchild]

When Melisandre talks about making glamours work she mentions a bag of fingers,

any ideas what this may mean re: Davos, did he actually survive the burning ships at kings landing or are we reading about one of Melisandre's agents?

[Arataniello]

[mod]

Please trim quoted material to avoid excessive/unnecessary stuff to which you are not responding. A couple of posts above is a good example of how NOT to reply to an earlier post - masses of 'quote' and then the reply being two lines only, responding to only a minute portion of the quoted post.

Thank you.

In fact, I may go back and trim that quote myself.

[/mod]

[BastardSon]

Thanks for replying- I was referencing the actual children who killed Ser Kevan, much to my disappointment. He was one of my favorite minor characters. I still don't get why his story is over, maybe its to remove Cersei's last hope as an ally (with influence) from KL.

But back to my original question, yeah, I was wondering if those little birds/boys mayhaps were CotF instead. Guess not!

Isn't it interesting how both Varys & Dany both call their leal subjects their 'children'? Whooda thought Varys was such a hardcore Targaryen loyalist!

Vary's actually uses actual children as spies, and apparently as assassins. I don't have the book but I believe Illyrio confirms this when he explains about his and Vary's past. People don't expect children to be dangerous, and he has tons of orphans and the poor of flea bottom to recruit from.

[samhaft]

Just something that struck me after reading about the Blackfyre Rebellion in The Mystery Knight:

When legitimised bastards in Westeros pick their coats of arms, they usually invert their Houses' colours.

House Stark's sigil is a grey direwolf on a white field. Inverting the colours would give us a white direwolf on a grey field.

White direwolf.

Grey. Scale. (This one is more of a reach, I admit, but even just the white direwolf is enough of a coincidence.)

DUN DUN DUN

Makes too much sense.

Lots of people took issue with this post but the most obvious reason it makes no sense is that Jon is in no way going to inherit Winterfell. Robb's will is often speculated to legitimize Jon as a Stark of Winterfell but he'd still be behind the trueborn brothers of Bran and Rickon, and let's get real, Robb isn't going to just fuck Bran or Rick with his will, and be like "ITS URS DUDE" especially knowing that his brother is a part of the Night's Watch and he's been raised his whole life knowing and WATCHING what happens when you leave your post.

And what does greyscale have to do with Jon? As far as I'm aware, other than the fact that he met a little girl with it, absolutely nothing.

*AND* there's no way Jon, as a legitimized Stark or not, would ever fuck with their ancient sigil. He respects his heritage too much, even if he was begrudgingly at bastard status his whole life.

Anyway, I just had to nerdrage about that for a minute. But good call noticing about the bastardization change of colors, that may actually become a huge clue to something later on, I feel like GRRM wouldn't include that info for no reason.

[littlespider]

Very minor, quick question (and apologies if this has been addressed exhaustively elsewhere):

Is it just assumed that all three of Dany's dragons are male? Is it possible that one (two, all three!) might be female? And what might be the implications of this?

Just a thought.

[Morrigan]

Just a thing from AFfC, which might indicate that Sandor may return to KL eventually. The news about Sandor's alleged alliance with Vargo Hoat's men arrives at KL via a raven from 'a septry on an island hard by the mouth of the Trident'. This has to be Quiet Isle. And if they have ravens there, they might actually not only send letters but receive them as well...

I'm not sure I'd say that the Quiet Isle is at the "mouth of the Trident": it's way past the place where the 3 forks meet, deeper into the Bay.

http://www.cartographersguild.com/feature/WesterosMap.jpg

Also, Sandor didn't ally with Vargo Hoat's men; that was Rorge, who took the Hound's helmet and has been pretending to be the Hound until Brienne killed him.

[tze]

Lots of people took issue with this post but the most obvious reason it makes no sense is that Jon is in no way going to inherit Winterfell. Robb's will is often speculated to legitimize Jon as a Stark of Winterfell but he'd still be behind the trueborn brothers of Bran and Rickon, and let's get real, Robb isn't going to just fuck Bran or Rick with his will, and be like "ITS URS DUDE" especially knowing that his brother is a part of the Night's Watch and he's been raised his whole life knowing and WATCHING what happens when you leave your post.

I don't understand why this is assumed. We don't know everything that Robb included in the document he had his lords sign. Remember, Robb was King in the North. It doesn't matter that the Iron Throne refused to recognize him--the Northerners did, and from a practical standpoint, that's all that matters. Yes, under the laws of the Seven Kingdoms, a legitimized bastard would be behind all trueborn siblings. But kings can make new laws. That's one of the perks of BEING a king.

All signs point toward Jon being named heir. But remember, Robb was also explicitly bypassing Sansa. If he just wrote that he preferred Jon over Sansa, he'd likely trigger a succession crisis a la the Dance of the Dragons or the Blackfyre fiascos. There was an easy way to avoid that: declare a new law---that legitimized bastards are placed in the line of succession as if they are trueborn. That would push newly-legitimized Jon to the front of the line, before even Bran or Rickon. Yes, Robb probably wouldn't have done that if he knew Bran/Rickon were alive, but as Catelyn says, once it's done, it can't be undone.

*AND* there's no way Jon, as a legitimized Stark or not, would ever fuck with their ancient sigil. He respects his heritage too much, even if he was begrudgingly at bastard status his whole life.

I've always wondered about this. The Citadel sends a white raven--larger than a normal black raven---to herald the arrival of winter. The Starks were ruling the North long before the maesters arrived, and their words are "Winter is Coming." We know the whole 'ravens as messengers' thing was inspired (according to the Children) by the practices of the First Men. Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Starks seal their letters with white wax? Not grey? So with the Stark signet, they'd basically be sealing their letters with a white direwolf.

My point is this: maybe the grey direwolf IS the inversion? A white direwolf makes more sense as a symbol that "winter is coming" than does a grey direwolf. There are plenty of times for the Starks to have inverted their colors: maybe when the son of Bael the Bard became Lord Stark (he'd have been a legitimized bastard). Maybe when Torrhen Stark bent the knee. Etc., etc.

Yes, the above is all speculation, but we have several (doubtless huge) books still to come. There are many logical ways to get around the Northern succession problem and the whole sigil issue.

[Brigid]

Nurse was his slaver, his overseer; Tyrion did not appreciate that.

I recall reading somewhere that he felt sorry for Nurse because her lot would likely be much harder where she was not "favorite." I never got the impression he hated her.

[Dragonfish]

I recall reading somewhere that he felt sorry for Nurse because her lot would likely be much harder where she was not "favorite." I never got the impression he hated her.

I think you're thinking of Sweets, the hermaphrodite. Nurse was the overseer.