[ADWD SPOILERS] Where is Maege Mormont?

[Buried Treasure]

It was Robb's army that loved him best though, and they are mostly dead or captives in the South. The lords who stayed in the North knew Ned best, so I think they would choose his trueborn children over a third party named by Robb.

It is not just love that inspires loyalty in the Northmen though, the Starks are practically a religion up there. The world was never right except when there was a Stark in Winterfell. Every house has their founding myth, which boasts how old and special they are, and some of the most powerful houses in the North get their legitimisation from the Starks; the Karstarks are a cadet branch, the Manderly's were given refuge, one of the Brandons won Bear Island in a wrestling match. So a trueborn Stark would mean a lot more to them than a make-do Stark which is all a legitimised bastard is.

[MtnLion]

King in the North and Lord of Winterfell are two different seats. If Rickon is recovered and assumes the seat as Lord of Winterfell, and Jon; by Robb's decree; is King in the North it seems settled. Rickon would certainly swear fealty to Jon, and all of the north would certainly follow his lead.

[Heavy Horse]

King in the North and Lord of Winterfell are two different seats. If Rickon is recovered and assumes the seat as Lord of Winterfell, and Jon; by Robb's decree; is King in the North it seems settled. Rickon would certainly swear fealty to Jon, and all of the north would certainly follow his lead.

I agree Jon does not need Winterfell to be KotN. However I think Rickon as Lord of Winterfell might be a scary thing. He was wild before his trip to Skagos (or wherever), and probably more so now. There is no reason to believe he wouldn't lop off heads at a whim, let alone listen to his bastard brother (or Targaryen cousin). Speculation of course.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

King in the North and Lord of Winterfell are two different seats. If Rickon is recovered and assumes the seat as Lord of Winterfell, and Jon; by Robb's decree; is King in the North it seems settled. Rickon would certainly swear fealty to Jon, and all of the north would certainly follow his lead.

and where will be king's seat?

Mole Town? Moat Cailin? Skane?

no KitN and Lord of the Winterfell is one and the same and Jon should swear fealty to Rickon

[Heavy Horse]

and where will be king's seat?

Castle Black... :drunk:

no KitN and Lord of the Winterfell is one and the same and Jon should swear fealty to Rickon

Why?

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Castle Black... :drunk:

Why?

because Rickon was concieved on the right side of the sheet for one

and if Jon is Lyanna's son - Lyanna was never heir to Winterfell, Eddard was - that is two

[Heavy Horse]

because Rickon was concieved on the right side of the sheet for one

and if Jon is Lyanna's son - Lyanna was never heir to Winterfell, Eddard was - that is two

Sorry, I meant why does the KotN have to sit in Winterfell? I agree Jon would not inherit WF before Rickon, nor would presume to, except as Regeant. But I don't see Lord of Winterfell and KotN as one position. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it couldn't/shouldn't be that way, just that it doesn't HAVE to. As I mentioned before, Rickon would have to come a long way before inspiring the people like Robb did. If a KotN is...um... positioned as Robb was, the northerners have alot to say about it, and I don't believe Rickon would be their first choice.

Sorry, WAY off Topic.

[Buried Treasure]

because Rickon was concieved on the right side of the sheet for one

and if Jon is Lyanna's son - Lyanna was never heir to Winterfell, Eddard was - that is two

Damn right.

Whether as Kings or as Lords the important point is that the Starks have always been the paramount house is the North. Why would anybody support creating a new House and making the Starks weaker than that house? Robb was naming an heir presumptive to not just his kingdom, to all the symbols of power asscoiated with his House, including Winterfell and the family name. If Robb named Jon, or the Vale lordling, or any of his bannermen, they have to take the name Stark. That is how the illusion of unbroken power is maintained over generations.

These northern lords may be loyal to the Starks, but they still have their ambitions. A child Stark ruler would be just fine, especially for whoever gets the regency. It is when a boy-king is just old enough to be headstrong that he causes the headaches (see also Joffrey, Aegon). Robb had to prove himself, but when he was naming his heir his lords would not have been happy at the thought of another green, untested boy his age. It is only in Dance that word starts to get around that Jon Snow is a competant leader (and I still don't agree that Robb did name Jon).

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Sorry, I meant why does the KotN have to sit in Winterfell? I agree Jon would not inherit WF before Rickon, nor would presume to, except as Regeant. But I don't see Lord of Winterfell and KotN as one position. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it couldn't/shouldn't be that way, just that it doesn't HAVE to. As I mentioned before, Rickon would have to come a long way before inspiring the people like Robb did. If a KotN is...um... positioned as Robb was, the northerners have alot to say about it, and I don't believe Rickon would be their first choice.

Sorry, WAY off Topic.

KitN is a Stark.

Stark ancestral stronghold is Winterfell, unbroken for 8000 yrs, just as Brandon Stark's line

what is Stark outside of Winterfell - another Karstark or Greystark

what is Stark in Winterfell - well he is almost a living legend, descendant of Bran the Builder, of Hungry Wolf, of Wandering Wolf, of Torrhen Stark, of Cregan Stark who was only match to Dragonknight - that my friend is Stark in Winterfell and that's why KitN MUST be in Winterfell

[Heavy Horse]

KitN is a Stark.

Stark ancestral stronghold is Winterfell, unbroken for 8000 yrs, just as Brandon Stark's line

what is Stark outside of Winterfell - another Karstark or Greystark

what is Stark in Winterfell - well he is almost a living legend, descendant of Bran the Builder, of Hungry Wolf, of Wandering Wolf, of Torrhen Stark, of Cregan Stark who was only match to Dragonknight - that my friend is Stark in Winterfell and that's why KitN MUST be in Winterfell

Given the potential new structure of the north with migrating Wilding marrying kneelers, et al, I don't see how past Stark rule applies.

Anyway, I'm done. Back to Meage.

[Buried Treasure]

What we know or think we know about Mormont locations:

1. Maege and Galbert Glover took ship from Seaguard for Greywater Watch. The crannogmen share borders with the Freys so they would have been among the first to hear of the RW.

2. Alysane was not on Bear Island when Stannis wrote to them, but returned there for men before aiding the attack on Deepwood Motte.

3. The two middle sisters are with Maege.

Thoughts:

Alysane knows her sisters are with mother. Either she is guessing because they never recieved letters from the Freys saying they are dead / captive or she has been in contact. I think the second option is more likely.

What is the timeline? A year from the RW to the end of Dance? Too long to just be sitting around waiting for things to happen. Too long to be still travelling to the Wall. So they must be taking some action, and it is secret.

The Mormonts and the Glovers appear to be among the few prominent Northern families without captives held in the South, so they could be acting openly but are not. So are they plotting with others that are less free to act openly?

Why have they not gone to the Wall by the end of ADwD?

a) The kingdom was so destroyed by the RW that they have given up entirely on the idea of trying to get a new ruler.

b ) When they learnt Stannis is there / Jon is LC they thought Jon would not accept the crown.

c) They have learnt Rickon lives and are plotting for the uprising once Manderly has retrieved him.

d) Jon was not the heir Robb named.

My preference is d but I know that is an unpopular opinion so won't go beyond saying it is a possibility. Option b doesn't work at all for me, if Jon is the heir and they are trying to follow Robb's will, they have to at least take a shot at offering Jon the crown.

Option c would have them travelling the North, quietly spreading the word that a Stark still lives. Yet there still remains the problem of captives in the hands of the Boltons allies.

My money is on a. The purpose of Robbs decree was to prevent chaos in the event he died. Yet the way he died meant that there was massive chaos and a succession crisis is the least of their problems. Two of the things the North needs most right now are revenge and freeing their prisoners. These both have to be done in the south so I suspect that is where Maege and Galbert have returned to. Freeing captives from a castle is hard, so they would wait for the prisoners to be moved. I believe this was due to happen offscreen during the overlap period after Feast finished / near the end of Dance so if I am right we may learn of an attack early in TWoW.

[Ice Turtle]

Well, I'm for option that they think that it is not the smartest idea to crown Jon while he is surrounded by Stannis's army. His reign would be even shorter then Joeffrey's.

I like to think that there is a third army hiding in that snow storm, ready to deal with Stannis and Boltons both. Melisandre burned a weirwood, when this become known Stannis is done in North.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Given the potential new structure of the north with migrating Wilding marrying kneelers, et al, I don't see how past Stark rule applies.

Anyway, I'm done. Back to Meage.

you can't just erase 8000 yrs old legacy, at least not with few thousand wildlings. The North remembers.

Back to Maege indeed

[Yeade]

Well, it's no secret I want to see Jon as de facto King of Winter by the end of TWOW after a short northern succession crisis between him, Sansa, and Rickon is resolved. At the rate the plot's progressing now, I figure Jon and Dany may only have one opportunity to meet about halfway through ADOS in the vicinity of the Trident before facing the Others in the obligatory win-or-die battle. If Dany's to attend this meeting accompanied by the combined strength of the South, in large part co-opted from Aegriff, it seems thematically fitting to me for Jon to bring along all the might remaining in the North. Then us readers will have a rare chance to watch two truly equal peers (in age, rank, and experience) treat with each other.

As for Maege Mormont, I tend to think she's scheming with Galbart Glover and Howland Reed to restore the Starks to power. She remains south in the Neck because her band of conspirators is coordinating with the Brotherhood Without Banners and possibly the Blackfish himself, who already have plans in motion to 1) free as many of the Red Wedding hostages as can be done while they're in transit per Jaime's orders in AFFC, 2) retake Riverrun with the help of inside agents like Tom Sevenstrings, killing Freys by the dozen in the process, and 3) finally sway the Vale into open rebellion against the Iron Throne. However, Maege and, presumably, Galbart are in raven contact with their families and other pro-Stark houses in the North, i.e. the Manderlys and Umbers, whose task is to oust the Boltons by whatever means necessary. If all goes well, Robb's former kingdom would be ready for another Stark to assume his place.

Jon, Sansa, and Rickon are the only plausible contenders for Robb's crown. For a variety of reasons, I believe Jon's likely to end up with his late half-brother's duties but not any of the associated titles, which are to be Rickon's in totality.

Sansa's due to be preoccupied by her final showdown with Littlefinger, involving also Robert Arryn (if he lives), Harry the Heir, the Blackfish, Jaime, FrankenGregor, the Hound, and assorted Vale nobles (e.g. the Royces). Besides, I'm not sure Sansa would press her claim if she can abdicate to one of her brothers seeing as she has little desire to rule.

Davos is certain to find Rickon and present him to Stannis. Referring to the map, Skagos is actually closest to the Wall. If Jon's still there, Rickon could fall into the habit of following his older brother's lead before Stannis or whoever else can influence him. In fact, I suppose this would be a nice callback to Rickon seeking reassurance from Jon during the Winterfell feast in AGOT. That Ghost can probably corral Shaggydog is another factor to consider.

Robb does name Jon his heir in Chekhov's will, IMO, but the word of a dead rebel's meaningless to Stannis. While Jon no doubt argues for Rickon's claim as he does for Sansa's in ADWD, the fact remains that he's the sole candidate with any appreciable military and command experience. Lest everyone forgets, the North's about to be overrun by ice zombies on top of the usual privations of winter. At the very least, I imagine Robb's (ex-)bannermen want Jon to be Rickon's regent. That Jon won't formally accept the offer doesn't mean he's above using his unofficial position as king in all but name to rally the northern forces against the Others in defense of the realm. Not to mention Jon's responsible for brokering alliances with the hill clans, Karstarks, and wildlings.

[Khal Rhaggat - Cart King]

Frankly, I think she is a guest of Lady Dustin. I think she is part of the Stark loyalists (with Manderly) that is working to depose the Boltons and restore the Starks. But that is just my guess. No facts to back it up.

The only problem with this is that Barbrey hates the Starks, so why would she help Maege?

[Khal Rhaggat - Cart King]

Manderly got info from Wex that bran and rick on are live, he just knew where rickon went because h could only follow one of the two groups. Plus th mountain clans loyalty Starks know bran is alive when in SofS the liddle shows up with food for them and definayely knows who bran is.

These are both killer points. Manderly definitely knows there's at least two male Starks out there, and I totally forgot about Bran's encounter with Liddle.

[Khal Rhaggat - Cart King]

If Meage and Glover have met with Howland, AND if he knows the true birth of Jon, it's possible they are spreading the word, somehow. However the Liddle incounter with Bran could also be getting out that Bran is alive. We could even conclude someone knows his wereabouts (a remote maybe). Either way Lyanna M. could know and could have let the hint slip, either by accident or on purpose... Thing is if R+L=J then Jon would be Targaryen, NOT Stark, if legitimized. It would have to be Bran or Rickon, before Jon in every case.

Exactly... If R+L really = J, then he's never a Stark in any scenario. He could still potentially inherit since he's named in the will, just not as Jon Stark.

[firepoet]

Robb's decree was on the basis that his brothers were believed to be dead, his sister was married to a Lannister and his other sister was missing a presumed dead. The point he made was that he'd rather have a natural son of Ned Stark whom he knew and loved rather than some distant cousins in the Vale that he'd never met. If it's learned that one or both of Rickon and Bran are alive, they would be rightful heirs to Winterfell without the decree. Jon is basically Plan B in that situation. but if R+L=J, Jon's claim comes after Ned's children anyway because he's a Stark on his mother's side.

Anyway, I'm sure Stannis would disagree with Robb's decree anyway whereas he would probably recognize that a Stark was the rightful heir to Winterfell in any case. If knowledge of Rickon and Bran's whereabouts becomes common knowledge in the North, then Bolton's claim is weakened. He rules at Tommen's pleasure and I think the Northmen would support the true Lord of Winterfell - a trueborn son of Ned, or a legitimized natural-born Stark. But I think he'd have quite a problem on his hands if he tried to deny Jon the Lordship of Winterfell...His forces are dwindling and his Southern knights are not equipped to fight a mutiny in the snow and cold.

Why Rob made Jon heir isn't really relevant unless he put his reasoning in the will. If it just says "Jon is heir." Then it doesn't matter that Rob only did it because he thought his siblings were dead. It would be legally binding. Which is another thing. It's not just about the Northmen loving the Starks and wanting to follow their wishes. They'd be legally bound to his written commands.

[Ross2013]

Why Rob made Jon heir isn't really relevant unless he put his reasoning in the will. If it just says "Jon is heir." Then it doesn't matter that Rob only did it because he thought his siblings were dead. It would be legally binding. Which is another thing. It's not just about the Northmen loving the Starks and wanting to follow their wishes. They'd be legally bound to his written commands.

I don't think "legally binding" means much, if anything, in the seven kingdoms right now. In any event, Stannis already offered Jon WF. He turned it down.