[ADWD SPOILERS] Dany's prophecy from Mirri regarding Drogo and her apparent fertility

[Bran The Burner]

Anyone else finds the idea of MMD now suddenly made a prophecy weird? When Dany asked her in GoT when Drogo will be as he was and Mirri answered when the sun rises in the west blabla, it was pretty clear to me that this was just another way of saying NEVER!. Until ADwD, I thought that Dany will never have another baby and the line of Targs will end with her - or can only continue through the male line if the theories about Jon turn out to be correct.

And now all the sudden *that* statement was a prophecy? What was the point of that prophecy and this whole cannot get pregnant again in the first place? Why was it included? Just a poor reason for including all those boring Quentyn chapters? I really feel like Martin squeezes this story into this weird prophecy with no purpose...

I agree completely with you. When I first read, I thought it was pretty clear that she was justing saying in several ways that Drogo would never be normal again but maybe she realized that Daenerys is a little slow so she explained to her stating things impossible to occur (and I believe not of them have happenned):

1) Sun setting in the east (Quentin can be the sun's son from the other prophecy but not the sun);

2) The seas becoming dry (plural - not a sea, like the Dothraki sea which is already a stretch)

3) A barren woman bearing a child again (some barren women can conceive but can't carry their pregnancies, maybe that's Daenerys' condition)

Personally I don't like that the books are laying so much emphasis on prophecies, especially in Daenerys' arc. A few prophecies could be interesting or the ways some characters react to it like Cercei even (or especially) when they aren't real, but when prophecies become so widespread they lose their importance.

[Little Grandfather]

I don't think it was a prophecy, it's just that this board is obsessed with them!

[Rydis]

I dont think it was prophecy either. I think too many people want to find hidden things in the story and make the connection. A lot can be taken at face value, and I think it is just something that happened. Yes, we can make a connection (like Mandarly Pies, or someones connection about the weirwood like the BwB has and Bran is at). Things in the story come back around, but it doesn't make it prophecy. Everyone and their whores have made prophecies in this book.

It is no more than a connection I believe.

[King_In_The_North]

If it is a prophecy (though since when was MMD a prophet?) that means Drogo would return. And that would just be stupid.

[Domenceus]

Because this is a story that relies heavily on prophecies and characters' responses to those prophecies, and because this is a world that does have magic, albeit less systematized than in other fantasy worlds, it is fun to roll ideas around to see if something sticks. The idea of people inadvertently saying things that come to pass is a type of dramatic irony, a mainstay of stories.

Many characters in these books have unknowingly had prophetic dreams or visions that were more real than they knew, so even if MMD was not an established prophet, she could have inadvertently said something that ended up coming to pass.

There is also good dramatic irony in Dany fixating on one prophecy - the three mounts - to the point of making unwise decisions in the hopes of avoiding the harms from it, and passing right through the waypoints of another without realizing it. I personally am more interested in her connection with Drogo/Drogon than in her ability to bear children, because that involved her growing into more of a person through her will and courage, rather than just relying on carrying some man's child. She is a mother to thousands, and a mother to dragons, and has more impact on the world than she could ever have by bearing a single child.

By symbolically "earning" Drogo/n's respect through her ordeal (just as she did the first time), she accepts her future and her role as ... whatever she is going to end up being.

The reason I joined this board was because I wanted to engage in deep, thoughtful, creative, and sometimes wild discussion about the books because there is so much there. Will some ideas be wrong in the end? Sure. But having a supportive environment to take those risks lets people enjoy another level of the books together.

[Domenceus]

It's neat to see other people's brainstorms about possible prophecies, especially when they concern someone's future death (so I can try to be prepared, damn you, GRRM!). I had my own brainstorm last night on this as I finished the book, so I'm enjoying being free to read all the spoilery discussion by others.

I also like Swordswench's prophecy vs curse analysis; perhaps framing it as a curse would be more palatable to the prophecy purists. :)

If they DO chuck UnGregor out the Moon Door, it'll be interesting to see how they manage it on the TV show since it's considerably smaller. It'll also provoke lots of "How many men does it take to chuck a Gregor?" jokes...

[u2vox82]

Drogon is the Stallion. He is Dany's son. The Dothraki will follow Dany because of Drogon.

Why does everyone assume there will even be an Iron Throne after the climactic battle? I think one theme of the series is that the petty battles of men pale before the battle between the gods. Whatever will survive that battle will likely look much different from the world these characters were born into.

Can't George re-write Drogo back? I still want the Rhaego prophecy to happen

[u2vox82]

You can read it as a curse that is failing. Part of the problem is that we don't know the "rules" or limitations behind magic (like most people running around) Mel's POV is instructive where she says that the best way to use magic is make it look effortless when it actually is quite difficult so that people overestimate the magician's power.

So imagine that Murr wanted to curse Daenerys to prevent her from ever birth the stallion who mounts the world. She might have to mount it with other seemingly impossibilities. But the curse is not sticking so the impossibilities are failing, signifying that Daenerys will conceive and have her Drogo return.

There are at least three ways the curse/prophecy could be satisfied/fail:

The first is that Drogon is Khal Drogo reborn. They are engaged in the same relationship as before, where Drogo is calling the shots but still taking care of Daenerys while not understanding her needs. Eventually, Drogon will be as Drogo was, being proverbially ridden by Daenerys as an equal partner.

The second is that Daenerys will have a child that will be the stallion who mounts the world, ie Khal Drogo reborn. This is the most attractive in my eyes because it would also satisfy the only "broken" prophecy in the series -- the Dorthraki prophecy that Daenerys would bear a world conqueror.

The third is the OP's theory.

Of course, this could all be one big red herring.

I'm cool with Dany giving birth to another "Khal Drogo."

[merchantkingpriest]

I'm nitpicking the language here and I don't think its what GRRM intended, but having the impossible conditions with Dany's ability to bear a child doesn't make her ability to bear a child any less likely. All that would mean would be that a bunch of really impossible stuff happens as well as at the same time her having a baby (which other than this potential misreading of the prophecy we have no evidence of her being infertile.)

Having said that I don't think Drogo's coming back and I don't think Dany's getting preggers. MMD wasn't making a prophecy, she was taunting Dany

[Zanzibar]

I think that the prophecy was fulfilled in the last Dany chapter. That would mean that Drogo will come back, but how? I think that his soul/mind/whatever will posess Drogon, and that he will finally listen to/obey Dany.

[voodooqueen126]

I think that the prophecy was fulfilled in the last Dany chapter. That would mean that Drogo will come back, but how? I think that his soul/mind/whatever will posess Drogon, and that he will finally listen to/obey Dany.

Ah yes but it wasn't a living child. Interesting that the bit about her being barren was not in the TV show.

[Hielo y Fuego]

I'm totally in line with the OP. MMD's words were in response to Dany's concern for Drogo being in vegetative state, not about her becoming pregnant again.

I also don't see this as any kind of prophecy, foretelling, omen or anything of the kind. The way I understand it, Dany's just asking the maegi for a diagnostic as a medicine lady/man. She was just acting as a concerned wife asking about her husband's health and not a powerful ruler asking a seer about her future (and even if that was the case, I would think it's more than obvious that MMD had such a grudge against the "horse people" that she had no reason whatsoever to give the truth to their khaleesi).

I understand how the setting for Dany's last few chapters can be seen as the "signs" in MMD's words (Quentyn representing the sun rising on the west -Sunspear- and setting in the east, the Dothraki Sea going barren in autumn, etc.) but IMO, this was just MMD's way of saying "hell will freeze over before your hubby's back to normal" and had nothing to do with Dany's fertility (and even like that, I don't think Drogo's coming back).

Not everything has to have a hidden meaning. Sometimes, the simplest answer is the right one.

[voodooqueen126]

I'm totally in line with the OP. MMD's words were in response to Dany's concern for Drogo being in vegetative state, not about her becoming pregnant again.

I also don't see this as any kind of prophecy, foretelling, omen or anything of the kind. The way I understand it, Dany's just asking the maegi for a diagnostic as a medicine lady/man. She was just acting as a concerned wife asking about her husband's health and not a powerful ruler asking a seer about her future (and even if that was the case, I would think it's more than obvious that MMD had such a grudge against the "horse people" that she had no reason whatsoever to give the truth to their khaleesi).

I understand how the setting for Dany's last few chapters can be seen as the "signs" in MMD's words (Quentyn representing the sun rising on the west -Sunspear- and setting in the east, the Dothraki Sea going barren in autumn, etc.) but IMO, this was just MMD's way of saying "hell will freeze over before your hubby's back to normal" and had nothing to do with Dany's fertility (and even like that, I don't think Drogo's coming back).

Not everything has to have a hidden meaning. Sometimes, the simplest answer is the right one.

Then if Daenerys is fertile then why is 'her giving birth to a living child' part of a trio of impossible things (such as the sun setting in the east, the seas drying up etc)

[Hielo y Fuego]

Then if Daenerys is fertile then why is 'her giving birth to a living child' part of a trio of impossible things (such as the sun setting in the east, the seas drying up etc)

Perhaps I didn't make myself understood. I'm not talking about Dany's fertility or lack thereof. I'm talking about the OP saying that people tend to confuse MMD's words. That's correct.

Because the maegi's not about Dany getting knocked up again. She's talking about Drogo coming back to her like he was before.

ETA: Besides I haven't seen Dany give birth to any living child. If anything, she's had 2 miscarriages so far.

[voodooqueen126]

Perhaps I didn't make myself understood. I'm not talking about Dany's fertility or lack thereof. I'm talking about the OP saying that people tend to confuse MMD's words. That's correct.

Because the maegi's not about Dany getting knocked up again. She's talking about Drogo coming back to her like he was before.

ETA: Besides I haven't seen Dany give birth to any living child. If anything, she's had 2 miscarriages so far.

Perhaps then Daenerys will die of puerpal fever in the last book then? She will have given birth to a living child and it will thus be time to see Drogo again who is after all dead.

[Miriamele]

I also thought Mirri was just citing impossible conditions. Maybe she included the one about bearing children because, as a healer, she thought Dany won't be able to have a child after her miscarriage, but she could've been mistaken.

[Daemrion]

MMD was trained by the maegi. Being someone who knows magic in AGOT, which would have been one of the reader's first exposures to magic in the series, I think it is likely to have some sort of magical significance.

[Hielo y Fuego]

Perhaps then Daenerys will die of puerpal fever in the last book then? She will have given birth to a living child and it will thus be time to see Drogo again who is after all dead.

Yes, perhaps she will die and be reunited with her Sun-and-Stars in the afterlife. It's possible and I can think of many ways this can happen. However, technically speaking, she's not asking the maegi to tell her if she will ever see Drogo again. She's asking when will Drogo come back to her as he was before.

This is why I believe that MMD's words were not a prophecy, foretelling or omen of any kind, but just the bluntest possible way for her to tell Dany that Drogo's mind is gone for good (he was still alive, in worse mental shape than Hodor, but he was still breathing.). Hence why I agree with the OP in the sense that MMD's words are not about Dany becoming fertile again and I'll go as far as to say that if the blood between her legs was a miscarriage, I don't see why she couldn't have a child and not have that anything to do with Drogo's potential return.

I think GRRM wrote all of this so vaguely that he bought himself enough room to head in this direction, should he wish to do so. Doesn't seem likely IMO (I believe the Targ line is doomed anyways) but it could happen. And I believe that vague ambiguity in the text concerning this topic is precisely what has led to this common confusion about MMD's words being a prophecy speaking of Dany's fertility or lack thereof.

[taurunum dire cat]

How many knights of the Vale does it take to THROW Robert Strong out the Moon Door? :P

Maybe he will be giant Sansa slains in the castle of snow :rolleyes:

[taurunum dire cat]

On topic,I think that all the things in MMD prophecy will came trus,and dany will be crushed becose if she didnt kill Drogo he could be normal again