[ADWD SPOILERS] Dany's prophecy from Mirri regarding Drogo and her apparent fertility

[voodooqueen126]

If Dany dies stopping the Others, I will actually enjoy this series more than if she ends up on the Iron Throne. I do like Daenerys, but the fact that she's been the only POV character in her entire arc unti the fifth series, and has little to no direct interaction with any of the rest of the story's characters for quite a while telegraphs that she specifically has to be extremely important to the plot. There's not even a minor caveat like you can bring up with Jon where "A POV on the Wall is important to have" that could at least slightly belay the necessity of Jon being intrinsically important. Dany is literally and very clearly the only reason her entire sub-plot exists.

If she dies, that seriously subverts what is one of the major expectations of the series. That said, if she dies without doing anything, it's very difficult to justify the huge amount of time that has been spent on her isolated plotline. Therefore, I want her to go do something important and then die, because it would be at least marginally less predictable than Dany just outright winning.

I still expect a Targ on the throne at the end, one way or another, though, so I'm actually hoping Aegon is real, or wins the throne even if he isn't.

You know, if Dany and Jon both turn out to be extremely important in defeating the Others and stabilizing the realm, but wind up dead in the attempt with Aegon on the Iron Throne and Tyrion either acting as hand or sharing in Dany/Jon's fate, I'd consider that an extremely satisfying ending to the series. I'm now really happy knowing there is an ending that would satisfy me, because it greatly increases the chances that Martin will be able to write one, even if it's not the one I outlined. I was afraid nothing would live up to the rest of the series for me.

Whilst I don't think Daenerys is a competent ruler (as the Meereen chapters show) but it seems that Daenerys would have to win any war in which she took-she has 3 dragons for heaven sake. at the same time sometimes being subversive for the sake of being subversive is not great writing, it's annoying... so um I guess Daenerys conquers but marries Aegon (thinking he has the better claim to the throne since he is Rhaegar's son even though it's the other way round) then Aegon rules whilst Daenerys bears and heir hopefully dying in childbirth after she punches out a few (atleast 2 boys one to be the equivalent of Arthur Prince of Wales, a Younger one called Aegon to be the equivalent of Henry VIII, a girl called Rhaella to be like Margaret Tudor to marry Jon's son who will be king beyond the wall, another girl called Rhaenys to marry a prince of Braavos or Lys but then marry a Tyrell. Hopefully they will decide that incest is a silly idea and will marry their son to someone from Meereen (or Illyrio Mopatis's grand-daughter if Aegon is the real deal) and then I hope you know your Tudor history:P

[Morrigan]

Dany miscarried right after eating the berries, so I don't think it was part of the curse.

Why couldn't it be? Did Joffrey die because of the poison/Balon die because of the Faceless Man/Robb die because of the Frey's treachery, or because Stannis burnt the leeches? Maybe the curse manifests itself through Dany's desperate food decisions. :P

In truth I don't think Mirri prophesized anything. She was just saying that Drogo wasn't ever coming back, and the infertility was just her twisting the knife in the wound. Mirri thought Dany is infertile, possibly because she drew forth a twisted scaly dead monster baby from Dany's womb (which doesn't exactly indicate a healthy womb), but she could simply be mistaken. The infertility line was omitted from the TV version, that can't be a coincidence...

[Auska]

The whole point of the thread is to talk about how Dany has considered what Mirri said to be a prophecy, but how she is likely to have misinterpreted it.

Saying it's not a prophecy in the first place therefore adds nothing to the thread, surely. We're considering Dany's view on her fertility which she believes has been prophecised to be non existent.

That doesn't make any sense to me, sorry. Whether or not it's a prophecy (or more accurately, a medical opinion, since Mirri was the midwife and would have an idea about her physical state) and Dany is barren or not, it doesn't make a difference what she thinks. She's not going to miscarry because she thinks she's barren, if she's not. She's not going to conceive if she starts thinking she's not barren, if she is.

The OP's argument was already dissected. It's certainly not about Dany's death. You can try to argue that it's either

1. Drogo's never coming back;

2. Drogo comes out of his coma after the given events (but he's dead now so it's moot);

3. Dany will be able to conceive after the given events, but it doesn't matter whether she believes it or not; or

4. It's not a prophecy at all and Dany may or may not be barren, but it doesn't matter whether she believes it or not;

[NexivRed]

The OP's argument was already dissected. It's certainly not about Dany's death. You can try to argue that it's either

First of all, it wasn't an argument, it was a speculation. You seem t be taking this way too seriously and getting a little bit too butt hurt at the suggestion of a prophecy.

Secondly, only if you are George R. R. Martin can you state "It's certainly not about Dany's death. You can try to argue that it's either... etc..etc..". And even then George can change his mind if he wants.

None of us "know" anything, I think you need to remember that. We can only guess; we can't rule anything out. So stating it's never going to be this, that or the other is pointless. We can only go on the words in the text, and all I am saying is Dany's interpretation of the words said to her is skewed.

[Auska]

First of all, it wasn't an argument, it was a speculation. You seem t be taking this way too seriously and getting a little bit too butt hurt at the suggestion of a prophecy.

Secondly, only if you are George R. R. Martin can you state "It's certainly not about Dany's death. You can try to argue that it's either... etc..etc..". And even then George can change his mind if he wants.

None of us "know" anything, I think you need to remember that. We can only guess; we can't rule anything out. So stating it's never going to be this, that or the other is pointless. We can only go on the words in the text, and all I am saying is Dany's interpretation of the words said to her is skewed.

Let me rephrase: your reading of the presumed prophecy as being about Dany's death is illogical, as has been explained. Yeah, prophecies can be about anything. We could just as well posit it's about a wormhole that appears and super-intelligent space dinosaurs taking over the planet through orbital bombardment. How's that for subverting fantasy trope?

What I'm saying is that given the text, there are only certain interpretations directly supported by it. Your original argument isn't one.

Your new argument or clarification I've also addressed. If you have a counterargument to that, you're welcome to present it.

(BrainFireBob, who I was actually talking to, mischaracterised the motives of people disagreeing with you or himself. That discussion wasn't really related to the merits of your argument.)

Edit: to clarify, when I say “argument”, it's not in the sense of picking a fight. You're making an argument for your speculation's veracity. Whether or not you believe in it isn't a factor.

[Smyke]

Not sure if anybody mentioned this as i only skim read the other posts but if the Martel sigil is a sun then couldn't the whole sun rising in the west thing be about Dorne rising up in rebellion

[NexivRed]

Okay, if you don't mind I'm going to step back from directly conversing with you. This is all getting a bit too surreal. I don't know if you realise how you come across, but it's no less than aggressively defensive of your own ideas. I don't know why you're being that way, but I'm not up for getting embroiled in it.

I'm entitled to put any ideas or speculations about the contents of the novels on the table, and it's not really in your power to just swipe them off in one fell swoop.

This...

Let me rephrase: your reading of the presumed prophecy as being about Dany's death is illogical, as has been explained.

..is odd, and this...

Yeah, prophecies can be about anything. We could just as well posit it's about a wormhole that appears and super-intelligent space dinosaurs taking over the planet through orbital bombardment. How's that for subverting fantasy trope?

..is just bizarre. Sarcasm is a bit childish.

What I'm saying is that given the text, there are only certain interpretations directly supported by it. Your original argument isn't one.

Yeah.... you can't prove that at all really can you. I think you're confusing my "argument" being wrong, with my "argument" just being something you personally don't like.

Your new argument or clarification I've also addressed. If you have a counterargument to that, you're welcome to present it.

You've lost me. Did I make a new argument you apparently blew clear out of the water?

(BrainFireBob, who I was actually talking to, mischaracterised the motives of people disagreeing with you or himself.

Haha, you sure about that? He's sure got your number by the sounds of it...

So yeah, in summary, you're so desperate to abolish all plausibilities you don't seem to like. Why do you allow them to just be, eh?

[Aquaman]

I'm pretty sure the Khal she meets in the last chapter is the metaphorical Drogo. That prophecy is finished.

The Khal is Jhaqo and he (and his khalasar, including Mago) raped and killed Eroeh, so probably not.

“When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" - Quentyn Martell?

“When the seas go dry" - Drogon setting the Dothraki sea on fire?

"and mountains blow in the wind like leaves" - No idea..maybe the Wall falling?

"When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child." - Her moon blood came in aDwD. Some say it was a miscarriage. I don't believe we've had mention of her having her moon blood post-Mirri Maz Duur.

"Then he will return, and not before.” - Problem is, he's dead. Maybe the stallion that mounts the world?

[Branna]

Yeah, I don't think it was a prophecy at all. And if it were, it was prophecizing Drogo's return, not her fertility. I think it's an interesting touch, but really the more telling thing is that they took it out of the TV show. To me, that means that MMD was just talking trash and making Dany feel like shit - or that she just thought giving birth to some horrible stillborn monstrosity meant likely problems later on in life.

She appears to be wrong. Not a big deal.

It was in the show. Word for word.

[Skadhi]

Who ever said it was a prophecy, I think she was saying he'll never be normal. Mirri assumes Dany to be barren. Maybe she was and the event that hatched the dragons healed her or maybe Mirri was just wrong. Its never stated that it is a prophecy.

Not barren, just unable to carry a child to term. Mirri says "when you bear a living child". That doesn't mean she can't get pregnant.

Ironically enough, that's probably caused by Mirri herself.

[Auska]

Okay, if you don't mind I'm going to step back from directly conversing with you. This is all getting a bit too surreal. I don't know if you realise how you come across, but it's no less than aggressively defensive of your own ideas. I don't know why you're being that way, but I'm not up for getting embroiled in it.

I'm sorry if I come off as brusque; so do you, to me, so perhaps there's a mutual miscommunication here. There's a tendency on the boards to unnecessarily label posters, and that's what I was originally responding to so perhaps this got off on the wrong foot.

I'll give it another go. You're welcome to respond or ignore as you see fit.

I'm entitled to put any ideas or speculations about the contents of the novels on the table, and it's not really in your power to just swipe them off in one fell swoop.

Absolutely. More theories = good.

Yeah.... you can't prove that at all really can you. I think you're confusing my "argument" being wrong, with my "argument" just being something you personally don't like.

Now, the way I read your original post was that you were taking the supposed prophecy and speculating that contrary to usual interpretation, the prophecy was actually about Dany's death. This seems to me to be exactly what you're saying, but I'll allow I'm misunderstanding something, or missing something from context. You said, in the OP:

So if we say Mirri is answering that question; "When will Dany get to see Drogo again", Mirri is basically prophecising Dany's death.

[…]

But could it be we're starting to see the beginnings to her end?

Thoughts?

To me, this doesn't make sense. As another poster points out, Dany isn't asking “when will I be with Drogo”, she's asking “when will Drogo be back to normal”. The prophecy text doesn't by any reading talk about Dany's being back together with Drogo, as far as I can tell.

So, I don't know if I misunderstood what you were speculating about, or if you're saying that in your opinion that is the question Mirri is answering?

But, that brings us to the later clarification (or new argument?) that you seemed to make:

The whole point of the thread is to talk about how Dany has considered what Mirri said to be a prophecy, but how she is likely to have misinterpreted it.

Saying it's not a prophecy in the first place therefore adds nothing to the thread, surely. We're considering Dany's view on her fertility which she believes has been prophecised to be non existent.

So, OK, if I understand correctly, you clarify that it's not about Dany's death and you're just coming to this from the point that Dany thinks Mirri has prophesied that she's never going to bear a living child, and that may or may not be correct?

My question is, essentially, what are the implications of that? Why does it matter? And I'm asking this genuinely curious. Here's a smiley, which I don't use that often :)

The way I process things, I see two conditions: first is that either Dany can or cannot have children (for whatever reason), and the second is that either Dany believes that Mirri has prophesied that she cannot have children, or she doesn't.

To me, these are orthogonal: it doesn't matter which way Dany goes on the latter, because regardless of that, she either will or won't have kids. Nothing about that belief is going to change things, she's having sex anyway. The only clear implication is that if she doesn't want kids but thinks she's barren, she might get pregnant by accident.

I see one other potential angle here, but I don't want to trample on you, so I'll let you present your view of why this is meaningful (or hopefully clarify further if I've completely misunderstood you).

[Jaime Targaryen]

You're missing the point. Dany thinks Mirri has prophecised she will never bear a living child. It's not the readers that have made it up, it's actually an opinion belonging to one of the characters.

Stating that someone is barren isn't a prophecy.

[vilator]

I think Dany was barren after Agot, and had been missing her period since then. After she got her period again she was just shocked. If she was pregnant, I think there would have been more clues to that.

[Cecep]

Anyone else finds the idea of MMD now suddenly made a prophecy weird? When Dany asked her in GoT when Drogo will be as he was and Mirri answered “when the sun rises in the west blabla”, it was pretty clear to me that this was just another way of saying “NEVER!”. Until ADwD, I thought that Dany will never have another baby and the line of Targs will end with her - or can only continue through the male line if the theories about Jon turn out to be correct.

And now all the sudden *that* statement was a prophecy? What was the point of that prophecy and this whole “cannot get pregnant again” in the first place? Why was it included? Just a poor reason for including all those boring Quentyn chapters? I really feel like Martin squeezes this story into this weird prophecy with no purpose...

[Ser Pistus]

Anyone else finds the idea of MMD now suddenly made a prophecy weird? When Dany asked her in GoT when Drogo will be as he was and Mirri answered “when the sun rises in the west blabla”, it was pretty clear to me that this was just another way of saying “NEVER!”. Until ADwD, I thought that Dany will never have another baby and the line of Targs will end with her - or can only continue through the male line if the theories about Jon turn out to be correct.

I am not sure what you are trying to say. You seem to agree that Mirri said Dany will never have another baby, but in the same time you deny it was a prophecy. What then?

[Plumed Quetzalcoatl]

I thought it was an obvious prophecy since MMD was the first person we met who was able to use magic.

[Ranmyaku]

I at first glance assumed it was Mirri Maz Dur just venting her rage at Dany and, yes I guess, hinting that "never" was the next best time for her to get pregnant. However, it did have a very prophetic feel to it. It's also very likely that none of the things within the cryptic threat are to be taken literally. She says something about the sea drying up or something? Could this be the Dothraki sea? She says something about Mountains? Mountain's That Ride perhaps? I did get the feeling Dany bleeding again was a sign she may be able to get pregnant.

That said, your point about the Jon theory being the only way for the Targaryen line to continue. You're forgetting Rhaegar's son?

[Sun]

I'm not convinced it was a prophecy.

[Plumed Quetzalcoatl]

I at first glance assumed it was Mirri Maz Dur just venting her rage at Dany and, yes I guess, hinting that "never" was the next best time for her to get pregnant. However, it did have a very prophetic feel to it. It's also very likely that none of the things within the cryptic threat are to be taken literally. She says something about the sea drying up or something? Could this be the Dothraki sea? She says something about Mountains? Mountain's That Ride perhaps? I did get the feeling Dany bleeding again was a sign she may be able to get pregnant.

That said, your point about the Jon theory being the only way for the Targaryen line to continue. You're forgetting Rhaegar's son?

When the sun sets in the east - Quentyn dying in Meereen

When the sea runs dry - The Dothraki sea drying up

Mountains turning to ashes - The pyramids of Meereen burned by dragons

I personally think that Drogo is finally returned to Dany through Drogon. I'm feeling that Drogon finally accepted Dany as his rider at the end of ADwD.

[Tony Rigatoni]

When the sun sets in the east - Quentyn dying in Meereen

When the sea runs dry - The Dothraki sea drying up

Mountains turning to ashes - The pyramids of Meereen burned by dragons

I personally think that Drogo is finally returned to Dany through Drogon. I'm feeling that Drogon finally accepted Dany as his rider at the end of ADwD.

Sun sets in the east makes sense. The rest seems like a stretch. But I like your theory on Drogon. Maybe all these clues mean Drogon will finally obey her and she can finally kick some ass again.