[ADWD spoiler] The Varys Thread

[Fishy]

I seem to recall Varys hanging out with Rhaeger discussing prophecy. I think Varys knows the others are coming and knows that Targ's are needed to battle them.

That might be the case, but it makes me wonder why he doesn't make a bigger deal of what happens at the Wall then. Why not try and convince people to move troops there? Why never mention the threat if it's so big? Surely some of the Kings or puppetmasters he supported could have been convinced to move people to the wall. Yet the only time we see him trying to get somebody there is with Ned and even then it's just to delay a civil war.

[shinytoyrobots]

My opinion of Varys took a dive off a cliff after Kevan's murder. The man is a monster who will prefer see the realm he claims to serve burn in order to get his way.

Yeah, I agree. I really hope there's greater exposition of this in the next book. For now, however, I felt the epilogue really undermined the Varys that had been portrayed previously. I understood the Varys who wanted stability above all else. The Varys who's purely a Targaryen loyalist, and is therefore prepared to kill someone who's demonstrably been a more moderate and stabilizing influence, purely to maintain the chaos necessary for a Targaryen return, doesn't sit right with me based on the previous books.

[Honey Badger]

Hi guys!

I don't think Varys did anything particularly wrong or out of character for him. His idea of peace is one under dragons. All the plotting with Mopatis makes this clear to me; in my opinion Illyrio doesn't give a crap about the Targs, but is backing Dany because he may profit from it and because he is a lifelong friend of the spider.

I like that his little birds finally make a definitive appearance. We were always hinted at Varys using orphans and street urchins since he was one himself, but this shows them in the flesh.

[Honey Badger]

Yeah, I agree. I really hope there's greater exposition of this in the next book. For now, however, I felt the epilogue really undermined the Varys that had been portrayed previously. I understood the Varys who wanted stability above all else. The Varys who's purely a Targaryen loyalist, and is therefore prepared to kill someone who's demonstrably been a more moderate and stabilizing influence, purely to maintain the chaos necessary for a Targaryen return, doesn't sit right with me based on the previous books.

Kevan is a good man, or as good as you're gonna get with the Lannisters. Him stabilizing the realm means securing the devout religious zealots to his side, getting sellswords available for upcoming conflicts with the North, re-establishing the gold cloaks and getting their numbers up, as well as re-raising an army in King's Landing and possibly the Rock. Getting his numbers secured and ready for war means more bleeding when the North is consolidated under Stannis and he starts marching south. The best road for peace is actually under Kevan and Roose Bolton.

Keeping things chaotic would make Dany's/Connington's return smoother. Varys was never about keeping things stable at all costs; he always wanted the dragons to return. Not sure what the problem is.

[Fishy]

Kevan is a good man, or as good as you're gonna get with the Lannisters. Him stabilizing the realm means securing the devout religious zealots to his side, getting sellswords available for upcoming conflicts with the North, re-establishing the gold cloaks and getting their numbers up, as well as re-raising an army in King's Landing and possibly the Rock. Getting his numbers secured and ready for war means more bleeding when the North is consolidated under Stannis and he starts marching south. The best road for peace is actually under Kevan and Roose Bolton.

Keeping things chaotic would make Dany's/Connington's return smoother. Varys was never about keeping things stable at all costs; he always wanted the dragons to return. Not sure what the problem is.

A temporary peace at best. Kevan is Tommen his uncle, the last powerful Lannister and the Tyrells will eventually find a reason to replace him. He says himself the peace is fragile and it won't be long before the Tyrells outnumber the Lannisters in Kings Landing. At the same time the North will never rally behind Bolton not in a 100 years, so the peace there is only until one of them can overthrow him and they will be working to achieve that. Whether by assassination or war, Bolton will lose his power. The fact that Arya is fake will eventually come out removing the only claim the Boltons have on the north. The entire realm will remain in trouble for many more years to come. A dragon on the throne however could theoratically at least unite all the sevon kingdoms again and bring a more lasting peace.

[Tony Rigatoni]

Varys is doing all this "for the realm" but really which realm is it? I'm on the fence about Varys - he seems like a stand up guy when dealing with Ned but really he's a mummer and could be deceiving everyone including us. What if he put Robert's rebellion into motion to begin with to destabilize Westeros so Pentos or another realm could prosper. With Westeros always focusing on itself and civil war, Braavos profits just by it's Iron Bank and Pentos doesn't have to worry about Westeros taking trade away. I'm not saying I'm convinced but it's a possibility.

[Sand Viper]

Seriously! Do you guys read!?

Wights = Pale blue eyes

Varys' children = Black eyes

Do I have to explain it clearer than that? It seems to me you are just seeing what you want to see, not what's in the text.

The Others are not wights. We do not yet know what the Others look like, but they seem to be associated with winter.

[Jay Bee]

In regards to his 'little birds', is anyone able to verify if my recall of the following information is correct (can't find anything about them on Wiki and Varys entry is vague):

1. Are they mute? For some reason I had the impression they were rendered unable to speak by removing their tongues.

2. Are they slaves? Slaves who have been taught to read and write. Again I've been assuming that Varys sources them from Illyrio, and they arrive pretty much fully trained (and muted).

3. Are they children? I've always pictured them as children, but is that textually based? Is it possible they're dwarfs?

I'm not sure if I've actually read those 'facts' in the books, or just made them up in my head to fill out my mental image and then after time (I swear, the older you get the more this happens) it's become gospel. Only to later find out I'd imagined it all.

[SeanStorm]

Didnt Varys tell Tyrion he hates magic and all who use it? This might have been a misdirect to keep Tyrion from doubting his allegience but Idk, its hard to lie about why your dick was cut off, I would think. His skill as a mummer might have been brought into use here but it always seemed to me that he was the most honest when he was talking to the Hands of the King, certainly to Eddard.

Why would he want to put any Targ on the Throne, especially Dany, whose dragons have created a massive increase in the potency and use of magic? Idk if he wanted Aegon, who is certainly the mummers dragon, whether hes fake or simply because its varys plot (not wholly his but enough) to reach Dany or not,but it does seem to fit more into Varys plans that he did not. He certainly speaks more highly of the boy who was instructed in the Faith and taught by a maester who probably didnt earn a link of valryian steel. I dont trust the Citadel at all since the last Samwell chapter and it seems to me that Varys and the Grand maesters are of like mind on magic.

[variance]

That might be the case, but it makes me wonder why he doesn't make a bigger deal of what happens at the Wall then. Why not try and convince people to move troops there? Why never mention the threat if it's so big? Surely some of the Kings or puppetmasters he supported could have been convinced to move people to the wall. Yet the only time we see him trying to get somebody there is with Ned and even then it's just to delay a civil war.

Maybe he believes prophecy can't be stopped with a giant wall?

Didnt Varys tell Tyrion he hates magic and all who use it? This might have been a misdirect to keep Tyrion from doubting his allegience but Idk, its hard to lie about why your dick was cut off, I would think. His skill as a mummer might have been brought into use here but it always seemed to me that he was the most honest when he was talking to the Hands of the King, certainly to Eddard.

Why would he want to put any Targ on the Throne, especially Dany, whose dragons have created a massive increase in the potency and use of magic? Idk if he wanted Aegon, who is certainly the mummers dragon, whether hes fake or simply because its varys plot (not wholly his but enough) to reach Dany or not,but it does seem to fit more into Varys plans that he did not. He certainly speaks more highly of the boy who was instructed in the Faith and taught by a maester who probably didnt earn a link of valryian steel. I dont trust the Citadel at all since the last Samwell chapter and it seems to me that Varys and the Grand maesters are of like mind on magic.

Just pointing out that the whole mummer's dragon thing could be wrong. We don't know what a mummer's dragon actually is, or if it is Aegon, or if the prophecy is even real. The whole ...slayers of lies, prophecy came from an enemy of Dany.

[Galen M]

3. Are they children? I've always pictured them as children, but is that textually based? Is it possible they're dwarfs?

Varys and Illyrio talk about their age in GoT.

[Lord Godric]

Varys and Illyrio talk about their age in GoT.

As do they allude to the fact that they are mute.

[Jay Bee]

As do they allude to the fact that they are mute.

Thanks muchly, I wasn't sure about that one in particular.

So basically we've got some mutilated, educated slave children being used to further the ends of men in power. I suspect Varys relates to them.

When I read his speech in the epilogue, I felt the meaning was twofold: the 'for the children' comment is, at least partly, an expression of regret for Varys use of the 'little birds'. He knows he's doing evil, but believes it's for a higher purpose.

I got a sense of 'I do this so no-one need do this again' feeling to his motivation. I believe he finds the treatment and abuse of the little birds to be abhorrent (yet necessary)

As someone who felt the knife at a young age I suspect he has a lot of empathy for the children he uses (which is not to say any of that stops him from using, and procuring more when needed. Just that it makes him sad).

But also more generally he is speaking of the 'children' of the realm. For all children. For 'the future'.

That was my impression anyway. That it was both a general comment about 'I do this for the good of the realm', as well as a specific declaration of his sadness at the things if has done, and will continue to do, in using his little birds.

[variance]

The Others are not wights. We do not yet know what the Others look like, but they seem to be associated with winter.

I am pretty sure they are described somewhere as being mist with bright blue eyes.

[Sand Viper]

I am pretty sure they are described somewhere as being mist with bright blue eyes.

According to the wiki-

The Others appear as tall, gaunt humanoids with chalk white skin and eyes of blue so deep it burns like fire. They wear reflective armor that shifts in color with every step, and wield thin crystal swords that seem to give off a bluish hue.[1] They ride corpses of dead animals

In the prologue of AGOT, the Others are described as having skin pale as milk rather than chalk - I had fogotten that it was Others in that battle, I thought it was wights.

So these children share with the Others the trait that they have pale skin, and appear when it is extremely cold. They have dark eyes, whereas the Others have deep blue eyes.

I think there is enough of a likeness to suggest that these children are connected to the Others.

[Sand Viper]

In regards to his 'little birds', is anyone able to verify if my recall of the following information is correct (can't find anything about them on Wiki and Varys entry is vague):

1. Are they mute? For some reason I had the impression they were rendered unable to speak by removing their tongues.

All we have if the fragment of speech "if they kept their tongues..." - to me, this is more of a wish that the children would keep quiet about what happened to them and that they get killed if they don't, rather than that they are mute

2. Are they slaves? Slaves who have been taught to read and write. Again I've been assuming that Varys sources them from Illyrio, and they arrive pretty much fully trained (and muted).

Who knows

3. Are they children?

Probably

Also we don't know for sure that these 'children' at the end of ADWD are the same 'children' that Illyrio brings for him

[Swordswench]

What is it about Varys' motivations that keeps him propping up "Aegon" in exile during all those years of relative stability Robert's reign allowed for? If you look at it a certain way, he's not doing anything to improve the state of affairs in Westeros at all, he's worsening it every step of the way. I think everything he says is a lie, as his actions don't match up with his stated intentions.

As for the support he provided to Dany and Viserys, I think that was pretty much an afterthought when they were able to make an escape to Braavos, and never truly part of his plan. With Varys spending the majority (entirety?) of his time in KL, it's possible some of the support Illyrio gave to them was done of his own accord (such as giving Dany the dragon eggs).

[Tourmaline Dragon]

With Varys spending the majority (entirety?) of his time in KL, it's possible some of the support Illyrio gave to them was done of his own accord (such as giving Dany the dragon eggs).

I don’t think that those were Illyrio’s eggs. I am sure he wouldn’t have parted with them due to their value, especially since he thought Dany was destined to be dead meat in the Dothraki Sea.

I think that Varys must have given them to Illyrio to give to Dany. Where those eggs came from is a mystery. How did Varys manage to get his hands on them, they are priceless. The origins of the 3 ancient dragon eggs may be quite significant. Could they have been the same eggs involved in the tragedy of Summerhall?

[Bran The Burner]

I always knew that Varys was full of bullshit, and the epilogue only confirmed that. There's no one who works for the realm (and I take that to mean peace) and also conspires to start a war and kill those who are trying stabilize the Kingdom like Kevan. There's no way one can argument that Targaryens were better rulers, for one half of them are batshit crazy, and in their time as rulers they saw many wars, one of which was a civil war particularly destructive (as all wars with dragons are). The Targs were so bad rulers that even a drunkard like Robert was better than most of them.

The argument that he knew that dragons are needed to fight the others is also very weak, for several reasons:

1) There's no way he could have known that Drogo would die and that Daenerys would then hatch dragons in his funeral pyre.

2) When Thorne showed up in King's Landing he didn't try to help him convincing the small council about the threat of the others.

3) The best for the Wall would have been Ned alive in Winterfell with his forces ready to help the NW when the others attack, not a realm completely devastated and broken with almost all the armies decimated.

And besides that, the first time the others appeared they were defeated by the Last Hero with the help of the Children of the Forest, while the Targaryens didn't exist and the valyrians were still a backward people in the stone age, and if you believe the ghicari, doing unspeakable things with their sheep.

I still don't know if he's just a targ loyalist or if he's trying to crown Ilyrio's son, or something else, but I know that he isn't working for the people of Westeros.

[The Non-Human]

What about this: He is a loyalist. In his mind, Targs are the rightful rulers of the land. Hence he is doing for the realm, since he is returning them their rightful rulers.

There! Varys 101! :laugh: :bowdown: