[ADWD spoiler] The Varys Thread

[Roza Ahai]

Varys reminds me Michael Jackson. Varys talks too much about children and uses them as slaves. His poor little birds have no life, they die pretty soon. I find his conversation with Illyrio really disturbing when he has ordered more little birds. Bloodraven at least used crows for his spy network.

[axels15]

They are Vary's litte birds. They are pale because most of the time they are within secret passages, listening. And seriousy? Littlefinger is just a self-serving bastard. By all accounts, Varys is not.

I dunno, i have a strong feeling its more than that, lots of pale faced children with black eyes and daggers in their hands? I think there's something to this

[The Non-Human]

I dunno, i have a strong feeling its more than that, lots of pale faced children with black eyes and daggers in their hands? I think there's something to this

Wighs don't have black eyes. In fact, they have pale blue yes. As for the daggers, not that hard to assume that if they spy for Varys, they might do some other works, too. Would be interesting thought, if the "for the children" was more...hrm, literal than it has been read so far. :unsure:

[jlk7e]

I said this in the other thread. i don't think Varys is even a EUNUCH. What proof do we have he is a Eunuch?

Well, everyone immediately views him as a eunuch. I'd imagine that, among other things, his voice hasn't changed and the lack of testosterone has made his body soft and lacking body hair. It's possible that he has his balls, I guess, but there's more to it than just him telling people he's a eunuch - there are physical characteristics that eunuchs typically have which Varys seems to share.

[Sand Viper]

I dunno, i have a strong feeling its more than that, lots of pale faced children with black eyes and daggers in their hands? I think there's something to this

Remember how unseasonably cold Kings Landing was in Kevan's POV? We know that extreme cold is associated with the Others being around. Surely these 'children' are Others...

[longlivestark]

Remember how unseasonably cold Kings Landing was in Kevan's POV? We know that extreme cold is associated with the Others being around. Surely these 'children' are Others...

it could have something to do with the fact that winter is here...

[HouseLark]

Remember how unseasonably cold Kings Landing was in Kevan's POV? We know that extreme cold is associated with the Others being around. Surely these 'children' are Others...

I think it was Pycelle's room that was unusually cold and that was because he didn't have the fire going for once.

[Lord Varys]

Varys opened the window because Pycelle befouled himself while dying. It was apparently disgusting. Do you guys actually read those books?

[Sand Viper]

it could have something to do with the fact that winter is here...

True, winter had come to KL, as the white raven was there when Kevan entered the room. When winter comes, the Others come - that's the plot premise.

It seems very timely to me that Varys' "children" pop out of the woodwork at the exact time that Winter Has Come.

[Jojen]

My opinion of Varys took a dive off a cliff after Kevan's murder. The man is a monster who will prefer see the realm he claims to serve burn in order to get his way.

That made me think of Alfred's line from The Dark Knight: "Some men just want to watch the world burn."

I don't think Varys is a medieval Joker, though. Unless he's a Targ in disguise. Fire and Blood much?

[zep243]

I think we're forgetting a key point in the Varys story. Illyrio gave the eggs to Dany. This is a seriously expensive wedding gift that would have taken huge pains to acquire if they truly were from Asshai. Why would he give priceless artifacts to a powerless princess who at that point was just a pawn?

We learn from the Mystery Knight that each Targ child back then got an egg to cuddle with in the cradle and that there was a large cache of eggs at Dragonstone. It is my thought that Varys came across those 3 eggs in the catacombs of the Red Keep and gave them to Illyrio to give to Dany. Why? Prophecies about PWWP and AA and three heads to dragons and the impending threat of the Others. He knew that the Targ line would be the key to defeating the Others and that one of them would hatch some dragons along the way. So I believe the Spider when he says he's working for the realm.

Also another thing I wanted to point out is that people tend to give Varys and Littlefinger waaaay too much credit for events happening around Westeros. I tend to believe that those two just know the importance of information and influence and are able to improvise changes to their plans no matter what happens.

[The Non-Human]

Seriously! Do you guys read!?

Wights = Pale blue eyes

Varys' children = Black eyes

Do I have to explain it clearer than that? It seems to me you are just seeing what you want to see, not what's in the text.

[GrandPoobah]

True, winter had come to KL, as the white raven was there when Kevan entered the room. When winter comes, the Others come - that's the plot premise.

It seems very timely to me that Varys' "children" pop out of the woodwork at the exact time that Winter Has Come.

The last time winter came was maybe nine years ago.

The last time the Others came was reportedly hundreds or even thousands of years ago.

[Akhôrahil]

I just don't get Varys.

If he's a man who wants only peace and stability for the realm and the common people, he's doing an absolutely horrible job about it.

If he's a Targaryen loyalist, why help destroy the dynasty in the first place?

If he lives to cause chaos and carnage, why the seeming pause in that during Robert's reign?

[Fishy]

I just don't get Varys.

If he's a man who wants only peace and stability for the realm and the common people, he's doing an absolutely horrible job about it.

You are assuming Varys is actually responsible for everything or just not looking at the bigger picture. The peace and stability Kevan would be able to gather would only serve for more wars later on. The Lannister line would not rule forever. Eventually people would stand up again, whether it would be the North, Dorne, the Vale or whatever Kevan at best could stabalize the realm for now. Somebody like Aegon however could unite all houses behind him and stable the realm for many a years.

If he's a Targaryen loyalist, why help destroy the dynasty in the first place?

At best we have vague references that he might have worked against Aerys, he never worked against Rhaegar.

If he lives to cause chaos and carnage, why the seeming pause in that during Robert's reign?

Because the realm was stable back then, it was at peace. Why destroy that? And even if he wanted to destroy it, how would he have placed somebody else on the throne? Nobody in the original seven kingdoms could take the throne uncontested. Nobody but a possible Targ. So even if he wanted to do something back then, which I doubt, it would have been terrible timing as he wouldn't have had anybody ready to take over.

[Akhôrahil]

You are assuming Varys is actually responsible for everything or just not looking at the bigger picture. The peace and stability Kevan would be able to gather would only serve for more wars later on. The Lannister line would not rule forever. Eventually people would stand up again, whether it would be the North, Dorne, the Vale or whatever Kevan at best could stabalize the realm for now. Somebody like Aegon however could unite all houses behind him and stable the realm for many a years.

Or just as likely, fail miserably, and just cause another round of vicious fighting. However, I think you're on to something - Varys (and Illyrio) have an overblown idea about their ability to plan events the way they'd like to.

We're not really seeing any evidence that Varys tries to help the common man (or child). Indeed, even during Robert's reign, he plans to start the next round of fighting.

At best we have vague references that he might have worked against Aerys, he never worked against Rhaegar.

But the evidence suggests that he fed Aerys' paranoia and made him worse, and we never see any reason to believe that the idea was to replace him with Rhaegar (instead, Varys was a big part in the downfall of the Targaryen monarchy). If he's really a Targaryen loyalist, his actions re: Aerys failed disastrously.

[variance]

I see Varys as presenting a very ticklish question: is unity and peace worth the risk of a mad king?

Personally, I think yes. Aerys was a monster, but there was a definite possibility that the whole debacle could have blown over (Rhaegar, Brandon) if the families had actually tried talking to one another....

They could have removed the Mad King and placed the next heir on the throne, but they didn't.

[Akhôrahil]

They could have removed the Mad King and placed the next heir on the throne, but they didn't.

That would seem (certainly in retrospect) like a much more reasonable plan for Varys, whether his motivation was Targaryen loyalty, or peace for the realm.

I like the idea of Varys as a utilitarian, but I can't see it - at times he seems as bad as Littlefinger, deliberately fomenting chaos.

[Fishy]

Or just as likely, fail miserably, and just cause another round of vicious fighting. However, I think you're on to something - Varys (and Illyrio) have an overblown idea about their ability to plan events the way they'd like to.

We're not really seeing any evidence that Varys tries to help the common man (or child). Indeed, even during Robert's reign, he plans to start the next round of fighting.

Very true, he is likely to fail misserably. Perhaps Varys overestimates himself here, or perhaps he believes Aegon to more powerful then he trully is. On the otherhand it could just be a throw of the dice, what's the worst that could happen? Aegon dies, the Lanniser and Tyrell alliance is damaged further. Westeros learns that there are still Targs out there, houses can start to rethink what they will do should Dany show up (assuming of course Varys uses this time to tell them of Dany). Look at like this:

If he wants Aegon to rule - Then really no other choice, can't let a strong enemy attack him, he needs to help.

If he the Targs back on the throne - Then still a smart move, worst case scenario he loses one, best case he has two

If he just wants people to die - Then good choice as well

If he trully wants stability for the realm - Then somewhat dubious but like I said before I don't think a Lanniser/Tyrell kingdom would last very long without another civil war so probably a reasonably smart move as well.

But the evidence suggests that he fed Aerys' paranoia and made him worse, and we never see any reason to believe that the idea was to replace him with Rhaegar (instead, Varys was a big part in the downfall of the Targaryen monarchy). If he's really a Targaryen loyalist, his actions re: Aerys failed disastrously.

True, assuming what we have been told is true... Aerys just really is the big unknown, and I can't really figure out why he did that yet. So I have no real answer for this question.

[Seabright]

I seem to recall Varys hanging out with Rhaeger discussing prophecy. I think Varys knows the others are coming and knows that Targ's are needed to battle them.