[ADWD spoiler] The Varys Thread

[The Anti-Targ]

I think a Varys PoV will be the epilogue in A Dream of Spring and we'll know his true motives then.

[Vale Nutria]

As long as the realm is built on an usurpation, it's going to be unstable.

But really all regimes are built on usurpation, even Aegon I was a usurper until I suppose a 300 year Targ rule 'legitimized' his conquest. If that's the case then a Baratheon dynasty would most likely have given as much peace as a Targaryen dynasty, perhaps even more so since the genetic madness wouldn't be as involved. Not only that, but we can tell by Varys's plans during GoT that he wasn't planning on allowing Robert to start such a dynasty, and in fact would have been more willing to put the realm in the hands of the much less capable Viserys. It seems to me less about peace and more about upholding what he perceives as the Westerosi status quo, but I guess we'll have to see where he's taking things before we can say for sure.

[Beagle_alarm_clock]

I posted this on the "Varys" thread and I see it now it is much more appropriately placed here. Apologies to those who read it there only to come here and see it popping up again like a whack-a-mole game.

Varys, Sandor and Tyrion are, in great part, so interesting to so many because they are complicated. Much of this complication stems from their intellectual, not inter-personal, honesty. They see the complete hypocrisy of the dominant cultural code of the realm. Varys more than the other two because he has more access, more vectors of information. Varys is into everything. He knows more than any other single person. In light of his history, which I believe was reliably narrated that context makes his actions very consistent. He is a political realist and quite ruthless, if not utterly so. Some other readers get hung up on "nobility" or "honor" and Varys disdains those not just because they are essentially a lie used to justify power for almost all in power, but because even for the few elites who do exercise those values they often follow those principles to the great detriment and suffering of others. They usurp all good intentions in favor of the self-serving, almost narcissistic love of their precious honor. Sure, innocents might suffer but they kept their honor. These are abstracts that Varys doesn't care about, with good reason. He is concerned with practical reality. Don't mistake me in that I argue that he is a hero or even necessarily a good man, though he is likely a righteous man. I don't find him evil or a villain, though, not even an unintentional villain. I suspect he could have managed an Aerys to Rhaegar switch but that Rhaegar went and kinked his play by falling for Lyanna and sparking a war with the wrong people wanting to kill the wrong people. Then he developed other plans, that fell through, then others. Joffrey most recently screwed the game when he had to go off script and kill Ned. No plan is unchallenged when it meets enemy action and in a game where Varys is playing against so many opponents, especially when they don't know they are playing him, the game and their moves become much more unpredictable. i do believe he is sincere in wanting to serve the realm, only he means small folk and children when he says realm. He has no love or concern for anyone with a banner. They can take care of themselves and usually do. Following this line, I don't think he cares especially that it is a Targaryen that rules. He has chosen them because they are a player outside of much of the rest of the game. They are simply more useful and for a longer time than other candidates. They are a puzzle piece, a cog, a lever, nothing more. We saw a like reasoning with Jon at the wall. Would Ned have let the wildlings through? I think unlikely. Not suitable to his honor. An amnesty? No. Jon is like Varys, but without the skill set from experience to insulate himself from direct violence or hate. He is a realist. He doesn't grant the NW some great affection bound by tradition and history and noble words. He knows they are a degradation of previous ideals. He knows they are a hypocrisy. Their words now serve to make them weak and unable to fulfill their primary mission. What will he tell the rest of Westeros when they are overrun by Others and undead monstrosities? Sorry you're being slaughtered, but damn it, I kept those wildlings out of the realm! So, ultimately, he chooses the mission over the tradition... and pays for it, or not... but this posting is not meant to address any of that.

In the end, probably, the schemes of Varys will fail. One thing this series has wonderfully embraced is the fallibility of those with power and knowledge and ability. There are no true, perfect saviors, at least so far, and I hope there won't be.

On an unrelated note, this is my first posting and I thank those responsible for the bandwidth to post my own scribblings and for the access I've had to the many interesting and entertaining postings of fellow readers.

[Beagle_alarm_clock]

Pretty much this. At this point, there's no real reason to believe otherwise. Why would you lie to a dying man who's sure to never see another face but yours?

Exactly. That is why this is reliable information and was presented in the setting it was. The author wanted us to know it was sincere. I recall earlier in the book and perhaps also earlier in FEAST someone in Dorne speaking about considering the children when making such momentous decisions. That it was mentioned twice as a motivation in ADWD I think we should take it to heart that Varys believes it, as do others, though his methods often turn out quite ragged even when intended to be surgical in precision.

[Greg B]

But really all regimes are built on usurpation, even Aegon I was a usurper until I suppose a 300 year Targ rule 'legitimized' his conquest.

Aegon the Conqueror wasn't a usurper, he was a conqueror. ;)

Robert was a usurper because he bent the knee to Arys and then rebelled against his rightful king. Aegon was a foreign invader who conquered seven independent kingdoms and unified them under the Targaryen dynasty. As moderns, we might question whether Right of Conquest is any more legitimate than usurpation, but there was a bright line distinguishing the two in Europe until the 20th century. I don't think it's unreasonable for Varys to believe that the Targaryen dynasty is more legitimate -- and therefore, over the long run, will be more stable -- than the violent dead-end that Robert's Rebellion has become. The Baratheon regime doesn't survive a single generation, and from Varys's perspective, the inevitable conclusion is that the Seven Kingdoms will fragment into seven fractious, warring kingdoms once again. In this view, Varys is a unionist. He's Abraham Lincoln. ;)

[Davos' Middle Finger]

I also think that Varys wants to break the power of all seven of the Great Houses for good, because he believes that in the long term a strong monarchy is better able to preserve a peaceful realm than one with seven powerful families that are often at each other's throats.

[StarkBlack21]

I said this in the other thread. i don't think Varys is even a EUNUCH. What proof do we have he is a Eunuch? No man would claim to not have balls, so everyone would ASSUME he is telling the truth. Who would check and see if he has balls? Plus Varys was summoned by Aerys from across the sea. Remember Varys says he grew up with actors, I think this is important.

I think Varys is acting this whole part, and we are about to find out he is part of a much bigger conspiracy. No one has proof or knows Varys history. All the history we know of Varys we get from himself. He is mysterious, with no family history, or past that can be verified.

Plus his voice deepened when he kills Kevan. I think Martin is leaving hints Varys is nothing we think he is. Watch it wouldn't shock me if Aegon was his son, or some other crazy shit.i really don't think Varys is a Eunuch,I think his whole character is a big ruse.

[FattyTuna]

Varys appears to describe the better part of his motivation in the following passage:

"Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of hte Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule them"

The way I see it is during the Mad King's rule Varys became disillusioned with the Iron Throne, having seen king after overly entitled king ruin the realm by ruling selfishly. He saw an opportunity during the Robert's Rebellion and spirited away Aegon in order to mold him into the ideal ruler. Viserys and Daenerys were useful pawns that could gather forces and help to take over Westeros and further solidify Aegon's rule when the time came through marriages.

An alternative explanation that doubles as Illyrio's motivation would be that they intend to unite the entire world under the Targaryens and they just wanted to start with Westeros.

Daenerys' birthing of dragons threw a real curve ball into everyone's plans and, as such, every party is making up their new plans as they go along to try and adapt.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

My opinion of Varys took a dive off a cliff after Kevan's murder. The man is a monster who will prefer see the realm he claims to serve burn in order to get his way.

Fuck no, he's responsible for the deaths of Tywin and Kevan. Woohoo.

[Ouroboros]

Daenerys' birthing of dragons threw a real curve ball into everyone's plans and, as such, every party is making up their new plans as they go along to try and adapt.

Did it really? Varys believes in magic, knows its real. How do we know he didn't take the possibility of dragon birth into account?

I don't think we know enough about Varys' plan to judge fully on what he did or didn't plan for.

[FattyTuna]

Did it really? Varys believes in magic, knows its real. How do we know he didn't take the possibility of dragon birth into account?

I don't think we know enough about Varys' plan to judge fully on what he did or didn't plan for.

What we do know is that prophecy and predictions of the future are painfully fickle and cryptic in the world of Westeros. Just as everyone is still struggling to figure out who The Prince Who Was Promised is and just like the Stallion Who Mounts The World failed to appear, there was no guarantee of who the chosen one would be, nor the specifics of what power they would wield, nor how they would act. As such, he would have to play it by ear. (assuming he isn't psychic)

[benadgatemusic]

I totally want to believe it means the Children of the Forest.

OT: when I read Varys I imagine the fat soldier from Mulan. Especially whenever the phrase "Varys giggled" comes up.

[voodooqueen126]

I also think that Varys wants to break the power of all seven of the Great Houses for good, because he believes that in the long term a strong monarchy is better able to preserve a peaceful realm than one with seven powerful families that are often at each other's throats.

This is really interesting and worth noting, I mean the rise of England begins with the Tudors (the dynasty the finished the wars of the roses and what was the wars of the roses but the war of great houses?) Henry VII and Henry VIII executed anybody who got too powerful... The Wars of the Roses finished the real power great houses of England in many ways.

Take Henry VIII (I haven't studied Henry VII enough:(

Henry VIII executed Anne Boleyn (forgivable from a feudal perspective since it was only her great grandfather Geoffrey Boleyn a mercer who was the first Knighted, the closest that Westeros has to the Boleyns I think is the Cleganes-recently enobled nobodies from the Westerlands/West Country with lots of York/Lannister connections, although it is true that Anne Boleyn's uncle (the Duke of Norfolk) did nothing to protect his sister's daughter's execution. But since the Boleyns were upjumped nobodies in the feudal world who cares?

Then he executes Catherine Howard, who although she was guilty as sin, was still the niece of the Duke of Norfolk, I mean seriously could you think of the nasty repercussions if you executed Eddard Stark's niece? (I would argue that rather than Starks=York instead Starks=Duke's of Norfolk/Howards). Henry VIII then executed the earl of Surrey who was the Duke of Norfolks heir, then imprisoned the Duke of Norfolk himself and was about to execute him but then died, I mean seriously Aerys I executed Brandon Stark's heir and it more or less started Robert's Rebellion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Howard,_Earl_of_Surrey

the castration of the powerful noble families of England allowed people like Cardinal Wolsey to rise and then people like Thomas Cromwell (think of the positive portrayal of Thomas Cromwell in Hilary Mantel's novel Wolf Hall), it also prevented the outbreak of civil wars such as the Wars of the roses from occuring every time the King executed somebody important.

So Vary's might be aiming for the rise of the middle classes, and the prevention of future civil wars by bleeding the noble houses of Westeros dry whilst bringing in a powerful and competent ruler.

That's my two bob.

[Ser Pistus]

But it is also rather old knowledge that Varys claims to 'serve the Realm'. He is essentially no villain. He is seems to be a slimy eunuch and the evil head of the secret police, but that is not what he truly is. That much is also clear since AGoT.

Wait a minute. Varys CLAIMS to serve the Realm. You are assuming that his claim is true. Why?

And Varys explains the connection between the Targaryen scheme (i.e. Aegon) and his claim to serve the Realm in the Epilogue. I don't see the confusion here.

I do see a huge confusion here. The Targaryen scheme in Thrones was to restore Viserys (later Dany), and NOT Aegon.

He has cooked up scheme back after the War of the Usurper to restore peace and order to Westeros. At the core of this scheme is Aegon, and it makes no matter if he is genuine or false.

So you claim that Varys decided that Aegon will be a better king than Robert, whan Aegon was still a babe and Robert was not yet king. How can he do it? Is he a clairvoyant?

[Ser Pistus]

My own views:

Varys is a schemer. His real goals are still hidden.

"For the Realm" is bullshit.

Whatever he said to the dying Kevan is bullshit.

Whether Aegon is Targ or Blackfyre or Dayne or just a peasant's son is a mystery.

[ErikConrad]

Varys became powerful in Pentos by dealing in secrets, right? So my guess is that in Pentos he stumbled onto something big concerning the Others, Dragons and the Red Priests - in which he was doubly interested because he was castrated by a red priest.

Somehow this (prophecy?) directed him to Westeros, probably because of the Targs. So he made his services known overseas and the Mad King Aerys was only happy to take him on for he didn't trust anyone at this point. Varys quickly saw that these Targs would not do to save the world when the Others came, so when Robert rebelled he made sure some surviving Targ whelps grew up to be awesome!

[Recently]

For the children sounds to me just like for the future generation basically.

I actually do think Varys goals are somewhat noble and that he does serve the realm. I mean he could easily have had Aegon raised to be pliable/controlable (his own, controlled version of tommen) but instead has set out to have him raised to be a good person that understands the hardships of the people. If he was looking to gain power for himself it would be much easier to install his own puppet ruler.

[Kadence]

Don't thnk it has anything to do with the COTF. I think it's all about Aegon.

I think prior to ADWD most people figured that Varys was interested in avoiding war, preserving the realm, and protecting the small people.

Now it seems like that was all bullshit and he just wants to destabilize things so the Targaryens can return.

My own guess is that Serra is Maelys' granddaughter (or possibly daughter) and Aegon is her and Illyrio's child. Varys I believe is all about the Blackfyres, not the Targaryens. He was just using the Targaryens - how Viserys fit into their plans I'm not sure, it's hard to understand. But Varys' motivations make much more sense if he's pro-Blackfyre.

I suspect Serra was his sister and Varys is the Blackfyre heir but, he is a eunuch so Aegon for practical purposes would be the Blackfyre heir. Why does Varys always shave his head? Probably because it's silver and he's pulling an Egg. In fact, I think Egg's existence is partially a clue about Varys.

I think Varys hates Targs and this explains why he tried to stir shit up while working for Aerys. At the end he didn't want Aerys to let Tywin in because Tywin/Robert would probably execute Varys (luckily for him they didn't), but it's indicated very strong in Dance that Varys was not some friend of the Targaryens. Varys being Team Blackfyre (and possibly a Blackfyre descendant himself) suddenly makes the Varys Riddle easy to understand.

I believe that if Serra and Varys are brother and sister, Serra was Maelys' granddaughter via her mother; if Varys was his grandson via a son, then he would probably be known and people wouldn't think the male line was extinct. But if they aren't brother/sister then Serra might have been Maelys' daughter. I lean towards them being brother and sister though, because of the shaved head thing, and it explains why Uncle Varys cares about Young Griff so much.

[Recently]

I said this in the other thread. i don't think Varys is even a EUNUCH. What proof do we have he is a Eunuch? No man would claim to not have balls, so everyone would ASSUME he is telling the truth. Who would check and see if he has balls? Plus Varys was summoned by Aerys from across the sea. Remember Varys says he grew up with actors, I think this is important.

I think Varys is acting this whole part, and we are about to find out he is part of a much bigger conspiracy. No one has proof or knows Varys history. All the history we know of Varys we get from himself. He is mysterious, with no family history, or past that can be verified.

Plus his voice deepened when he kills Kevan. I think Martin is leaving hints Varys is nothing we think he is. Watch it wouldn't shock me if Aegon was his son, or some other crazy shit.i really don't think Varys is a Eunuch,I think his whole character is a big ruse.

Whats the point in lying that hes a Eunuch? He was known to be a Eunuch since Aerys took him into service.

Are you claiming that he planned out like 30 years or so into the future that he would fake being a eunuch so that his future son could capitalize on the future war of succession? Way to convoluted.

[voodooqueen126]

Whats the point in lying that hes a Eunuch? He was known to be a Eunuch since Aerys took him into service.

Are you claiming that he planned out like 30 years or so into the future that he would fake being a eunuch so that his future son could capitalize on the future war of succession? Way to convoluted.

The reason the Chinese court was so full of Eunuchs (aside from the whole guard the wives so they can't sleep around thing) was that as eunuchs they had no children or inlaws and thus no biases-they really could serve the Emperor and the realm because they had nothing else.

Course this is BS as many eunuchs were famously corrupt.

But perhaps Varys really is the ideal eunuch-he has no sex drive so he doesn't want women, he doesn't have the possibility of children so he doesn't want land to give to his children. he was enslaved so he lacks a powerful family trying to tell him what to tell the king, he has experienced poverty and slavery so he wants to prevent other little boys from being castrated....

Course if he was Serra's brother and they were both Blackfyres that also makes sense...

But it's not necessarily mutually exlcusive:maybe he both wants a Blackfyre on the throne (his own family) and to preserve future generations by destroying the power of the great families, thus preventing future civil wars.