[ADwD Spoilers]Favorite POV in ADWD

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Arya by far, she is the only original POV that has maintained a good storyline and quality throughout the series. Some of the better ones in ADwD are new ones: Davos, Selmy, etc. Whenever I read those, part me can't help but feel like it is just wasn't needed and get back to the story.

Davos was a POV in Clash and Storm.

And are you saying that new ones can be the good ones, or that they're not needed?

[Guest]

I don't know why people like Theon's PoV so much. Three main strikes against it:

1) it was like horror-porn, and pretty disgusting and hard to take for me (I guess I have delicate sensibilities)?

I agree, but it's not necessarily my sensibilities that are offended. Instead I hoped for something new and refreshing in Theon's POV and didnt get it. George's motif of physically crippling his characters in the most shocking way possible is getting old to me. He already did it with Jaime, Bran, Tyrion (and to some extent Sansa). I'd like to see a character travel along their arc without the pain of BDSM dungeon pet rape theater. Like the worst Kushiel book by Jacqueline Carey, there's no maturity and gravitas here, just cheap horror-shock-titillation. I wish Martin didn't write sexual humiliation with such a heavy hand. Sometimes the subtle accumulation of everyday horrors can be much more compelling and psychologically damaging than any flaying or castration. One thing I will say he did well, though, was giving Theon agency with the escape scene. That was pretty great.

[Brucolac]

I know when all the POVs showed up. Davos has been around, but he isn't original. I am just saying I would rather have a decent Tyrion, Jon or Dany chapter than a really good Davos or Theon chapter.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I know when all the POVs showed up. Davos has been around, but he isn't original. I am just saying I would rather have a decent Tyrion, Jon or Dany chapter than a really good Davos or Theon chapter.

Sorry. The way it was written (and the inclusion of Selmy) made me think you were referring to POVs that were just new to Dance.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't know why people like Theon's PoV so much.

On my end, I thought it was a pretty goddamn powerful psychological portrait. It wasn't so much the plot (which you didn't seem to care about, fair enough) as it was what was going on in Theon's mind. He basically went from being a shell back to being Theon. It wasn't just a change of names; each one has strong connotations of identity and a sense of value and self-worth. Some of the imagery was just incredible, especially the description of Winterfell's main hall with all of the smells and food and the atmosphere. The inner conflict that Theon had and his thoughts that he should have died with Robb, were pretty indelible. In terms of sheer characterization, I still say it's the best collective POV of any of the books.

"Horror porn" implies gratuitousness. I suppose that someone could say that the northern chapters were gratuitous, but I think it showed just how bad Theon's physical and psychological torture really was.

Finally, I have a level of interest in the north — all of it — that's about a thousand times greater than my level of interest in any bullshit going on (or rather, not going on) in Meereen. You obviously disagree, so it makes sense that Theon's chapters didn't do anything for you.

[Ser Pink of Floyd]

For what its worth, its everything in the Theon/Reek chapters that I like. Theons transformation from Reek to Theon (and possible slips back) were excellently done and made a large part of the chapters awesome. But it also had a stella cast of supporting characters in it, Wyman Manderly tops the list (he is such a badass) and the Boltons were all excellent and done well as the prime antagonists but so different to each other. Add to that the hoodedman theories, the horns outside winterfell, the numerous murders and Abel/Mance's plan to get Jayne out of Winterfell made it a wonderfull read.

I did enjoy the Davos chapters, as few as they were and the Selmy ones too. Not keen on the later Tyrion chapters, which I felt started off alright but seriously, how many times is this dwarf supposed to end up as someones prisoner? Its wearing a little thin now and I *really* hope he gets to Dany asap in the next book to drive both his & her stories towards their endgame.

[herald snow]

My fav.'s

#1...tyrion&theon

#2...jon,conn.,arya,asha

#3...jaime & barristan( the new badass)

#4...davo

And the worst is bran & dany.....everone in her chapter's r good,but she's just so boring.

And I knew no new pov's but I wish we had a manderly,blackfish, or mance

[Lord Barristan]

I don't see why the new POVs have to be bad, or considered unnecessary. I agree 20 POVs or however many we have now could be considered superfluous, but to say all the new ones are bad is absurd. I think the story would have been much more boring if we kept the original POVs only.

I agree there is much superfluous material and too many POVs, but I just love the Davos, Jaime, Barristan, Theon chapters so much I couldn't imagine these books without them.

I also liked the Connington POVs, as few of them as there were... I like Asha's POV as well.

In fact, the only POVs I didn't like were Dany's... I think I would have enjoyed this book much more if Barristan had been the main POV in Meereen instead

As to the Theon chapters and the psycological component, I read the book Unbroken recently, about POWs in Japan durng WWII, and while I was reading it, I actually thought of Theon... here is a quote from that book that really relates to Theon's suffering and loss of identity:

"That self-respect and sense of self-worth, the innermost armament of the soul, lies at the heart of humannes; to be deprived of it is to be dehumanized and cast below mankind. Men subjected to dehumanizing treatment experience profound wretchedness and loneliness and that hope is almost impossible to retain. Without dignity, identity is erased. Inits absence, men are defined by their captors and the circumstances in which they are forced to live."

[Brucolac]

Maybe the reason those other ones are slipping is the time he is spending on the new POVs because you are only fooling yourself if you think any of the original major POVs are as good as they used to be.

I know the reason the editor moved crucial chapters to the next book was because of the book length, a result of all the new POVs. We might have actually had a completed book if they weren't there and not 1000 pages of exposition and 50 of cliffhangers.

[King Rickon and his Dawg]

Which "new" POVs in Dance were unnecessary exactly? Barristan, Melisandre, and Jon Connington all contributed greatly to the plot. I would even argue that Melisandre should've had more than one chapter. Quentyn I could maybe see as non-essential, but he only had four chapters and his storyline moved fairly quickly anyway. The only chapters I view as unnecessary in this book, as much as it pains me to say it, are Jaime and Arya. Jaime's chapter could easily have been placed at the end of AFFC. The other POVs that were introduced in Feast (Asha, Victarion, and Areo) all provide glimpses into key areas of interest (Stannis' camp and Dorne) without being spoilery as someone like Doran or Stannis would be.

[Lord Barristan]

Maybe the reason those other ones are slipping is the time he is spending on the new POVs because you are only fooling yourself if you think any of the original major POVs are as good as they used to be.

I know the reason the editor moved crucial chapters to the next book was because of the book length, a result of all the new POVs. We might have actually had a completed book if they weren't there and not 1000 pages of exposition and 50 of cliffhangers.

Honestly man get over it. There a bunch of new POVs and most of them are really good. How can you dislike Barristan's POV? Or Davos? Or Jaime for gods sake? When I read these books I am excited to see what new POVs we have.

Its like people that criticize coaches or GMs of sports teams, they are where they are because they know what they're doing. The people flipping out at John Elway- the dude went to 5 super bowls, he knows a bit about playing quarterback... deal with it.

Martin has sold millions of books and won various awards and the last book sold almot 400,000 in one day. if you think you could write these books better than he can, transport back in time to 1990 and come up with this story and characters before he did.

I thought the first three books were near perfect... The last two weren't as good, but they were still good books and i enjoyed many of the new POVs. I wasn't thrilled about some things in those books, but as a 26 year old in my last year of law school who has never sold or written a book in my life (and probably never will), I'm not going to sit here and claim the story has gotten too big or that there are too many POVs or that its being dragged out .I'm just going to enjoy the books, because I do love them. If you don't like the new additions and think its too big or confusing, stop reading or come up with your own story.

Remember, Martin wrote these books and we are all on message boards discussing them... I think that should give you proper perspective on the situation

[Brucolac]

Yeahhhh, I didn't write the books so I can't critique them and sales equals quality.

You know his answer when asked about the cliffhangers was that chapters were moved to the next book because of length right? I guess it is just too huge of a leap to say that if four Quentyn chapters that turned out to be a dead end POV weren't in the book it would have left space for the ending he intended when he submitted the manuscript. Maybe his first editor cut out material instead of moving one book's plot to the next and that is why you think the first three books were near perfect. Maybe it was a coincidence that the book finally got published on the heels of the show to capitalize on its success.

[kephv]

I get what people are saying about the new povs taking away from the older ones. It definitely feels like some of the older characters have become less important and hence there's less pages devoted to them - Arya, Bran, Davos, and Sansa... who was forgotten entirely in Dance - while he keeps adding new POVs that seem more like side stories, which in the end detract from the main ones. That and the fact that the book felt incomplete were my main problems with Dance.

Back on topic:

1. Arya - she never fails to disappoint.

2. Bran - same for him.

3. Theon - whatever he doesn't know, you can't doubt that he knows his name.

4. Jon - most of it.

The new povs

1. JonCon

2. Whitebeard

3. Mel - her one chapter was nice

3. Quentyn - his last chapter was great at least

[lordthade]

Tyrion, and it's not even close. I love the inner dialogue. He says one thing and almost always thinks something else that you wish he'd said out loud-- and you know you're sharing that joke with him. Extremely, deviously, fun to read.

LEAST favorite? Dany. Dany a thousand times. I'm hoping for more Selmy chapters now.

[mike_s_6]

Favorites would be in no particular order, Theon, Jon, Davos, and Melisandre.

Theon's was some of the most rivetting in the series. Well done, Mr. Martin.

[Lord Barristan]

Yeahhhh, I didn't write the books so I can't critique them and sales equals quality.

You know his answer when asked about the cliffhangers was that chapters were moved to the next book because of length right? I guess it is just too huge of a leap to say that if four Quentyn chapters that turned out to be a dead end POV weren't in the book it would have left space for the ending he intended when he submitted the manuscript. Maybe his first editor cut out material instead of moving one book's plot to the next and that is why you think the first three books were near perfect. Maybe it was a coincidence that the book finally got published on the heels of the show to capitalize on its success.

Look I was just as disappointed and angry when i finished the final dany chapter... i was like "that was it?!?!" I have said as much in other threads. If this book had given resolution of the battle at winterfell and meereen it would have been incredible, it didn't feel right to end where it did

That said, you were criticizing the new POVs saying when you read they don't seem necessary and you want to get back to the "plot."

How then do you suggest Davos is unnecessary? How are we supposed to know what Stannis is doing in the first 3 books if it wasn't for Davos? And Manderly in this book? Yea maybe his role in the battle of the blackwater wasn't important to the "story" and they should have just had the whole river battle off screen, that would have been better

How are we supposed to know what Theon was up to unless we got his POV? What would people have said if he just showed up at Winterfell and took the castle without any POVs from him? How would we understand the Bran and Rickon situation? How would we have seen the whole sack of Winterfell and known the Bastard of Bolton was the true evil? How would we have seen inside of Roose and the Bastard?

Jaime's chapters were my favorites in Storm and Feast. Maybe its not "the story" you were looking for, but it was a great read.

Samwell's chapters. I wasn't the biggest fan of them in Feast, but in Storm they were awesome and very necessary not just for the others/old bears death, but Jon becoming Lord Commander.

Jon Connington- How can you think his POV wasn't necessary? How were we supposed to find out what Young Griff is up to?

Barristan Selmy- Ok, maybe not 100% "necessary to the story" but who really cares? They were awesome chapters, and maybe you would have preferred it all to happen "off screen" but I was thrilled by his parts, and I think the whole Meereenese knot would have been much better through his eyes than Dany's.

So that is my point. You are saying these new POVs aren't necessary and don't add to the story.

I understand the frustration at the lack of resolution, i feel the same way, but to say all the Non original povs (even those from the first three books) are not necessary or relevant to the "story" is just ludicrous.

[Brucolac]

I am going to let the thread go back to favorite POVs instead of what is wrong with them, but I am going to say that there are several POVs that could have remained third person characters. While you might lose detail, less can be more.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

The Tyrion and Jon chapters were engrossing (honorable mention to the Connington chapters), but the Barristan chapters were something special. Everything about the chapters from the looks at past Westerosi history, to his transformation from loyal Queensguard Knight into an effective hand ooze with brilliance from GRRM. His battle with slave pit fighter was absolutely outstanding (one of my top two or three moments in the book).

I only hope that he survives to end of the story, continuing to kick more arse.

[Ice Turtle]

Theon

Jon, Melisandre, Asha ...mostly for Stannis.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Not sure why people are suddenly replying to like my 5 month old reply to this thread but what the heck!

On my end, I thought it was a pretty goddamn powerful psychological portrait. It wasn't so much the plot (which you didn't seem to care about, fair enough)

Well not much happens within Theon's PoV that is significant in the grand scheme and I stick by it. We still don't know what even happened in the place where he had his PoV despite him being there.

as it was what was going on in Theon's mind. He basically went from being a shell back to being Theon. It wasn't just a change of names; each one has strong connotations of identity and a sense of value and self-worth. Some of the imagery was just incredible, especially the description of Winterfell's main hall with all of the smells and food and the atmosphere. The inner conflict that Theon had and his thoughts that he should have died with Robb, were pretty indelible. In terms of sheer characterization, I still say it's the best collective POV of any of the books.

"Horror porn" implies gratuitousness. I suppose that someone could say that the northern chapters were gratuitous, but I think it showed just how bad Theon's physical and psychological torture really was.

The way that George chose to write Theon's torture was IMO pornographic and completely gratuitous. What exactly was the point of it?

The other thing I didn't like about this was that it seemed to be a cheap ploy to gain the character sympathy. People often say "no one deserves that" or "I thought Theon was a monster before but now I like him because of what he went through" - which to me is just wrong. Someone being tortured nearly to death is no reason to think better of them. For example, if Ramsey was tortured in the same way, would you suddenly like him? I hope not. Someone isn't suddenly redeemed simply through pain - they actually have to change (and yes, Theon did this too which is great for him, I just don't like the cheapness of the torture angle). I also think the way GRRM wrote Penny in aDwD was a "pet-the-dog" ploy for Tyrion (in fact Tyrion gets a lot of these throughout the books).

For my part, I didn't need this as I already had sympathy for Theon and like him, so it came off as an especially cheap and easy ploy on GRRM's part.

Finally, I have a level of interest in the north — all of it — that's about a thousand times greater than my level of interest in any bullshit going on (or rather, not going on) in Meereen. You obviously disagree, so it makes sense that Theon's chapters didn't do anything for you.

Exactly where did I say anything about not being interested in the north? Gotta love you putting words in my mouth. You're getting to have a pretty bad habit of dismissing other's opinions because they happen to like a character you hate.

In fact I'm very interested in the North and i'm absolutely certain that the North is where everything is going to go down in the end (for obvious reasons). Jon's character grew a lot, and I was very much interested in the developments at the wall (though admittedly there was a lot of filler for him, just like Dany and Tyrion, and yes Theon). I'm even more interested in Stannis and how he begins to unite the north (BOOYAH)! Plus Davos and Manderley, all awesomeness all the time.

What I don't care about is BOLTONS, because GRRM has failed to make them believable people who exist for any reason other than to be hated (if anything both Ramsey and Roose have become more 1-dimensional since we've seen them "up close" in Dance). I'd rather not read depressing horror-porn about evil people I hate and that won't matter in the grand scheme.

But hey, maybe Theon will become Azor Ahai or save Westeros so that his chapters will in hindsight be important. ...Unlike with Dany and Jon, I'm not holding my breath on that one.