[ADwD Spoilers]Favorite POV in ADWD

[Lord Barristan]

I am going to let the thread go back to favorite POVs instead of what is wrong with them, but I am going to say that there are several POVs that could have remained third person characters. While you might lose detail, less can be more.

I dont disagree with you in this statement, but do you recall what you said earlier, sir?

I mean, for all intents and purposes, you said all new POVs were garbage.

So make up your mind.

You buy one book and get upset that the plot didn't move enough for you, I buy these books and read them because i like to read... If you're poor and can't afford to read, go to the library.

So if you didn't enjoy these books, why are you still on these forums? Look, I feel bad enough about spending time on here, but I LOVE this series. I don't get why you on here about a series you hate

[Brucolac]

I said the new POVs were garbage and I hated the book? Actually, I said even if I like them, I have to wonder at the cost of their addition. When I read original POVs that seem to be tailing off in quality, two books that get published instead of one for this time period and not even being able to get the plot in, I think it is time some of it hits the cutting floor good or bad. Once they get published, they aren't going away until he kills off the character either. Every time one gets added, that is more chapters in every book going forward. The additional POVs added in ASoS were enough to make one book into two. What happens with the next work now that he has added another 6 POVs in the last two?

It seems like GRRM doesn't know how to make choices anymore, so he includes everything. Initially, he would skip over events that weren't in a POV and give a secondhand account as one of his characters heard of them. Now he adds a new POV just so he can show them taking a piss.

I don't even think it is his fault really so much as the way the books were published and edited. AFoC got forced out of him and had most of the plot for this period and he had to fill out ADwD because the material that got moved to it. But in the end, this was the book he presented 10 years after ASoS and is the foundation going forward.

I really don't even know what you are insinuating with the second part of your post there. Unlike you, who probably started the series after ASoS based off your age, I have bought and read every one of them the day of their release and AGoT a month after the release. I stick with series that I start because I like to know how they turn out, even ones that I started as a child that I think are complete crap now. I still think really highly of ASoIAF, but that doesn't mean I hold every book in it with equal esteem.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I said the new POVs were garbage and I hated the book? Actually, I said even if I like them, I have to wonder at the cost of their addition. When I read original POVs that seem to be tailing off in quality, two books that get published instead of one for this time period and not even being able to get the plot in, I think it is time some of it hits the cutting floor good or bad. Once they get published, they aren't going away until he kills off the character either. Every time one gets added, that is more chapters in every book going forward. The additional POVs added in ASoS were enough to make one book into two. What happens with the next work now that he has added another 6 POVs in the last two?

It seems like GRRM doesn't know how to make choices anymore, so he includes everything. Initially, he would skip over events that weren't in a POV and give a secondhand account as one of his characters heard of them. Now he adds a new POV just so he can show them taking a piss.

I don't even think it is his fault really so much as the way the books were published and edited. AFoC got forced out of him and had most of the plot for this period and he had to fill out ADwD because the material that got moved to it. But in the end, this was the book he presented 10 years after ASoS and is the foundation going forward.

Word, I agree with everything you've posted. GRRM needs new and better editors, ones that actually care about the quality of the work not just getting words on the page.

I wish GRRM would have just stuck to the PoV's he introduced as of aSoS and leave it there. Actually I'd skip Sam, too - his story, Asha's, Brienne's, Arianne's, Cersei's, Victarion's, Quentyn's, Aeron's, Hotah's, and Barristan's could have been told in other ways - GRRM used to be very good at this. He's gotten so bad at it that we had to read the exact same Jon/Sam conversation (with very few differences due to the change in PoV) TWICE after a 1000 page break. Utterly ridiculous. In the past, we'd have one PoV during the conversation, and one reflecting on it later, to much better effect. It comes across as very, very lazy writing. Like, Copy -> Paste lazy.

And by the way, I actually LOVE the Brienne and Sam chapters despite their uselessness to the narrative because I love the characters. But I'm willing to let them go in favor of making a book that actually tells a cohesive story as opposed to a rambling incoherent mess. I would hope fans of the other redundant PoV's would want the same.

Finally, not only are there too many new PoV's as of affc/adwd, there are too many chapters for each of the "core" characters as well. It's really gotten out of hand. There was NO WAY we needed 13 chapters for Tyrion this book, nor 12 for Jon, nor 10 for Daenerys. Daenerys had 11 chapters in the previous two books, wherein she crossed a desert, experienced a vision quest, acquired ships and allies, crossed a sea, conquered three cities, raised an army, and began ruling Meereen, all while trying to get her love life figured out. :P In this book she mopes around in Meereen fretting about how awful things are for 8 chapters and the only thing of significance that occurs is her getting married in the last of these. I feel her pain, but honestly GRRM would have done that in 3 chapters if he was writing as well as he was in his acok/asos day.

Also the concept that more pages = better is just idiotic. Look at Jordan. Less happened in more pages every goddamn book in that series until I gave up on it on #5, and that was when I was 16. What are we on now, #13? I don't even know. I am really really really hoping GRRM doesn't do this but I fear, very very much that's exactly where he's headed.

[skins7778]

Im not familiar with the history behind Jordans work only what I've read here so I've sstayed away. Did he originally come out and give a limit on the books like Martin has?

As far as the POVs go I loved anything in Westeros for the most part because it continued the story where most of the Essos stuff dragged on especially Dany's Mereen stuff. Im okay with some of the Feast additions because they brought us a glimpse of Dorne.

I will say this some of the Essos stuff did grow on me upon some several rereads mainly I think because my initial anger over the supposed "Meerenese Knot" never being truly "untied".

[DurararaFTW]

The other thing I didn't like about this was that it seemed to be a cheap ploy to gain the character sympathy. People often say "no one deserves that" or "I thought Theon was a monster before but now I like him because of what he went through" - which to me is just wrong. Someone being tortured nearly to death is no reason to think better of them. For example, if Ramsey was tortured in the same way, would you suddenly like him? I hope not. Someone isn't suddenly redeemed simply through pain - they actually have to change (and yes, Theon did this too which is great for him, I just don't like the cheapness of the torture angle). I also think the way GRRM wrote Penny in aDwD was a "pet-the-dog" ploy for Tyrion (in fact Tyrion gets a lot of these throughout the books).

A person is severely punished for his crime before we are asked to put outselves in his shoes again, what's so wrong with that?

[PatrickStormborn]

Not sure why people are suddenly replying to like my 5 month old reply to this thread but what the heck!

Well not much happens within Theon's PoV that is significant in the grand scheme and I stick by it. We still don't know what even happened in the place where he had his PoV despite him being there.

The way that George chose to write Theon's torture was IMO pornographic and completely gratuitous. What exactly was the point of it?

The other thing I didn't like about this was that it seemed to be a cheap ploy to gain the character sympathy. People often say "no one deserves that" or "I thought Theon was a monster before but now I like him because of what he went through" - which to me is just wrong. Someone being tortured nearly to death is no reason to think better of them. For example, if Ramsey was tortured in the same way, would you suddenly like him? I hope not. Someone isn't suddenly redeemed simply through pain - they actually have to change (and yes, Theon did this too which is great for him, I just don't like the cheapness of the torture angle). I also think the way GRRM wrote Penny in aDwD was a "pet-the-dog" ploy for Tyrion (in fact Tyrion gets a lot of these throughout the books).

For my part, I didn't need this as I already had sympathy for Theon and like him, so it came off as an especially cheap and easy ploy on GRRM's part.

Exactly where did I say anything about not being interested in the north? Gotta love you putting words in my mouth. You're getting to have a pretty bad habit of dismissing other's opinions because they happen to like a character you hate.

In fact I'm very interested in the North and i'm absolutely certain that the North is where everything is going to go down in the end (for obvious reasons). Jon's character grew a lot, and I was very much interested in the developments at the wall (though admittedly there was a lot of filler for him, just like Dany and Tyrion, and yes Theon). I'm even more interested in Stannis and how he begins to unite the north (BOOYAH)! Plus Davos and Manderley, all awesomeness all the time.

What I don't care about is BOLTONS, because GRRM has failed to make them believable people who exist for any reason other than to be hated (if anything both Ramsey and Roose have become more 1-dimensional since we've seen them "up close" in Dance). I'd rather not read depressing horror-porn about evil people I hate and that won't matter in the grand scheme.

But hey, maybe Theon will become Azor Ahai or save Westeros so that his chapters will in hindsight be important. ...Unlike with Dany and Jon, I'm not holding my breath on that one.

I pretty much totally agree with this. Theon's arc felt like a rehash of Jaime's in ASOS to me, and that just made me angry. I don't want to start liking characters I once hated just because we're reading from their point of view. I do feel sorry for Theon, of course, because no one deserves what happened to him. But that doesn't mean I like him. I am holding out hope for Theon, though, and I did like his character arc in ADWD. But I felt ill reading some of his chapters, and imo it was just too much - particularly the Jeyne scenes (who I feel much more sorry for).

I don't think I really loved any point of view in Dance, which is a shame. I guess my favourite was actually Mel's, surprisingly. But I also really enjoyed Asha and Arya's chapters, despite not really liking them that much during AFFC.

I'm sure this won't surprise anyone, but I also like Dany's chapters. The problem, for me, was that there was just too many. Martin could've cut out between 2-3 and I would have enjoyed her arc a lot more. Oh, and I think many people dislike her arc because it pretty much summarises the book: a lot of filler chapters, with the last ones being the only ones with any real importance.

For the most part I enjoyed Jon's chapters, but I felt that his arc was a bit rushed and unrealistic character-wise. It wasn't long ago since Jon was fighting against the wildlings with apparently no consideration about what would happen once they were dead. And I felt that his chapters became more of a drag for me once Stannis, Sam, Aemon, Mance, etc. were gone, and were replaced by the likes of Val. Melisandre and Stannis were the best things about his chapters, in my opinion.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Im not familiar with the history behind Jordans work only what I've read here so I've sstayed away. Did he originally come out and give a limit on the books like Martin has?

I stopped paying attention awhile ago, but I do know that Jordan intended a Trilogy to begin with (as did Martin, for that matter). I don't know what he said after he wrote the 4th and 5th, but he did claim to have already written the final chapter of the series from the very beginning.

As far as the POVs go I loved anything in Westeros for the most part because it continued the story where most of the Essos stuff dragged on especially Dany's Mereen stuff. Im okay with some of the Feast additions because they brought us a glimpse of Dorne.

I will say this some of the Essos stuff did grow on me upon some several rereads mainly I think because my initial anger over the supposed "Meerenese Knot" never being truly "untied".

I dunno, did we really advance the core story much during adwd? Jon did the most (allying with the Wildlings was as important as Dany taming Drogon, and well, obviously dying is something) but it took too long. Stannis' efforts are important, too - a united North can defend against the great threat much more easily than one at war with itself, but the most important parts of his story are told offscreen. His exploits were best told in conversations with Jon and the two letters Jon received. Meanwhile Theon observed dissention inside Winterfell and Davos' PoV tells us that Manderley is secretly against the Freys/Boltons, so that we have some hope of Stannis' success, but we don't even know what actually happened.

...I'm still pissed about that damn knot. It seems like GRRM hasn't even tied it yet.

[The Human Abstract]

I thought we did advance the story and much of the information given in this story will be extremely important.

However.

The story is less "action-packed" than had the fastforward button simply been hit or things been told in an accelerated manner.

..

I'm torn. If the story winds up completing in a decade, than I will feel better off and will have enjoyed myself more with having the details given in a richer way. However, if this things spirals than I will feel quite hollow about it all.

The truth is: I really enjoyed reading this story, though. I just thought we'd come farther in the book.

[Guest]

The way that George chose to write Theon's torture was IMO pornographic and completely gratuitous. What exactly was the point of it?

I dont understand it either. I guess at the end Theon had to realize that the Starks would be the only family he'll ever have, yet he betrayed them. To me, his failure to sack Winterfell (all to win the love of a father who hated him) was enough of a catalyst for that realization. Whats interesting in Theon's POV was his usefulness as a hostage for the Boltons, how he coaxed the Ironborn out of Greywater, and how he had to "sell" Arya. The only reason I could think why flaying and castration were included were to "humble" Theon and make him long for the days when he was treated like a Stark. In other words, to make him realize that the first hostage situation was way better than the second one. But I think the emotional burden of actively having to work against your own people - the North and the Ironborn - for a hated enemy is a much more interesting way to reach that realization than physical torture.

I didn't really have a favorite POV in this book. I love Jon's character but I think I had more fun reading him in Storm.

[soob]

I liked

Quentyn. I'm glad he got a hundred pages or so of pointless adventures. Really made me care when he died. Yep.

[soob]

The only reason I could think why flaying and castration were included were to "humble" Theon and make him long for the days when he was treated like a Stark.

Castwhostion?

[WetHair]

My favorite POV was Theon by light years. I didn't care about him one way or another in GOT but in CoK I became very involved with him and was appalled as he seemed to become more and more irredeemable. When the only thing we learned about him in SoS and FoC was that he was being flayed I was getting more concerned and cranky. In Dance I saw the "Reek" chapter heading and, I kid you not, I said aloud something along the lines of "Who gives a f*ck about Reek, how dare you devote a POV to him and WHEN are we going to learn more about Theon's fate?" Then I read. His chapters were difficult to get through and the writing was amazing.

I couldn't agree less that it was pornographic or gratuitous; how could he have been redeemed without it? Why would we care about him without it? It was heartbreaking. The added bonus was to make all fans agree (even if we are unable to agree on much anything else!) that the Boltons are common pondscum and need to be exterminated ASAP by a death a tad more horrific than ordinary.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I couldn't agree less that it was pornographic or gratuitous; how could he have been redeemed without it?

Torture is not redemptive.

[Chelly]

I liked Theon's the best for many reasons already posted but mostly because I felt that Martin really outdid himself writing those chapters. Yes it was horrific and disgusting but I couldn't stop reading when it came to Theon's chapters. Theon chapters were the ones I was most looking forward to and I loved the progression of how the titles changed throughout the story from Reek to Theon.

I also enjoyed Bran and Selmy. Bran because I find his journey to be interesting and I cam curious as to where his character is going. Selmy mostly because of his insights to the past.

I got to admit, though, Dany has always been a favorite character of mine but after ADwD I was kind of disappointed. I probably disliked her pov the most because I felt like she was just a sitting duck. It wasn't until the very end that her story started to move.

The biggest wtf pov for me was Quentyn. I actually enjoyed his pov and I was warming up to him just so he can stupidly get himself killed.

Honorable mentions go to Victarian because he may be a cruel, vicious sob but his chapters are crazy entertaining. Davos as well because I like him and I am most looking forward to his chapters in the next book.

Just my 2 cents, that is all.

[Scaeva]

My favorite three POVs were Barristan Selmy, Connington, and Davos.

[Woman of War]

I am probably a bit weird but I liked Tyrion's and Daeneris POVs, especially the Rhoyne travel and the last Daeneris chapter...... sorry....

[skins7778]

I am probably a bit weird but I liked Tyrion's and Daeneris POVs, especially the Rhoyne travel and the last Daeneris chapter...... sorry....

yes you are wierd

j/k

[Brucolac]

Yeah, I love the new Dany POVs too. I hope every chapter going forward starts off with three pages describing an erotic dance and ends with a page wondering what color Dario's eyes were today.

[Rhaegar Stark]

Do not understand in any way how Theon's POV's were pornographic? Really guys, we are dealing with the BOLTONS here, of course it is going to be dirty and nasty. How did anyone expect anything different? Torture is never pretty it is always gruesome... especially when you are dealing with a house that has a flayed man as a its sigil.

Back on topic though it has to be Theon. I believe it is some of the best writing GRRM has ever done especially the chapter with Roose talking to Theon so epic.

[The Human Abstract]

What has become most frustrating about Dany is how obtuse she is. I had previously regarded her as relatively intuitive, if not bright. But when she consistently is not picking up on things or picking strategies that are clearly naive and doomed to fail, it can be damned irritating.

I actually like the environment though and love some of the characters in Slaver's Bay.