[ADWD Spoilers] Drowned God and the Others

[It is not known]

I've really been thinking about the connection between the Drowned God and the Others. Here's what I have so far

*Mel first introduced it to us when she said that the Drowned God was a thrall to the Great Other

*The words of the Drowned God "What is dead can never die, but rises again, harder and stronger." Well, that sounds a whole lot like the description of an Other!

*Patchface could possibly be spy/prophet for the Drowned God sent to the Wall and hang around Stannis (see more about Stannis below)

*Euron is really suspicious in that he wants Victorian to get Danny for him, he has a major unexplained absence for years, and then he shows up with a mega powerful horn, hmm...

*Could Stannis possibly be a descendant of the Drowned God? According to the history of Storm's End:

According to legend, the first Storm King in the age of the First Men was Durran, who won the love of Elenei, the daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. He took her as wife, and in a rage her parents sent vast storms to shatter his keep and kill his wedding guests and family. Durran declared war against the gods and raised several castles over Shipbreaker Bay, each larger and more formidable than the last. Finally, the seventh castle stayed in place and resisted the storms. Some believe this is because the children of the forest took a hand in its construction; others believe that a young boy who grew up to be Bran the Builder, advised Durran on its construction. The truth of the matter is unknown

from the Storm's End Wiki page

If Stannis is some sort of descendant of the Drowned God, why is he at the wall? Could he be like the Targs who have this overwhelming desire to awaken dragons? Maybe he knows he's supposed to be near the wall but can't say why at this point? Her certainly has a strong connection to the sea...

[ambyr]

I've really been thinking about the connection between the Drowned God and the Others. Here's what I have so far

*Mel first introduced it to us when she said that the Drowned God was a thrall to the Great Other

Wait, she did? When? Moqorro says that to Victarion; if Mel says it as well, that would pique my interest, since it would show doctrinal similarities between two Red Priests who otherwise seem to have had fairly divergent training.

[Cricket]

Wait, she did? When? Moqorro says that to Victarion; if Mel says it as well, that would pique my interest, since it would show doctrinal similarities between two Red Priests who otherwise seem to have had fairly divergent training.

She does say that, but I think that she only meant it in the sense that she believes the Drowned God is a false god who keeps men from recognizing R'hllor, the true god. She previously mentioned that no other gods exist except for R'hllor and The One Who Can't be Named, who is the creator of the Others.

[Andhaira]

I made a thread about this yesterday, but it has not yet been approved for some strange reason. Anyway, Cotter Pyke states in his letter to Jon that "there are dead things in the water". Later, Moqorro states that the drowned god is a thrall to the great other.

IMO this means that the drowned god exists and has power.

So basically, we have rhllor and the old gods on one side, and the great other and the drowned god on the other side.

I wonder if the Damphair will start getting magical powers in TWoW. Maybe his kisses will start reviving people from the dead as zombies/wights.

[Tourniquet]

I think it would be really cool if it turns out that these two Gods are real and are actively fighting against eachother. Although I believe GRRM said that gods/religion weren't the focal point of this story...

[MinotaurWarrior]

I'm still not convinced that R'hllor exists. In my opinion, magic is just another natural force that people claim deities are responsible for.

[fuelpagan]

*Euron is really suspicious in that he wants Victorian to get Danny for him, he has a major unexplained absence for years, and then he shows up with a mega powerful horn, hmm...

Not sure about the rest, but I think the Crow's Eye is working with Bloodraven in some way.

[Ku.]

If Stannis is some sort of descendant of the Drowned God, why is he at the wall? Could he be like the Targs who have this overwhelming desire to awaken dragons? Maybe he knows he's supposed to be near the wall but can't say why at this point? Her certainly has a strong connection to the sea...

Melisandre told him to go there.

[It is not known]

I made a thread about this yesterday, but it has not yet been approved for some strange reason. Anyway, Cotter Pyke states in his letter to Jon that "there are dead things in the water". Later, Moqorro states that the drowned god is a thrall to the great other.

IMO this means that the drowned god exists and has power.

So basically, we have rhllor and the old gods on one side, and the great other and the drowned god on the other side.

I wonder if the Damphair will start getting magical powers in TWoW. Maybe his kisses will start reviving people from the dead as zombies/wights.

Yes that was something else that set of alarm bells with me.

Another thing I forgot to mention in the OP was that it's suspicious that Davos, Stannis' most loyal man, was drowned and came back.

[nedsdead]

Melisandre told him to go there.

Davos persuaded him to go to the wall (ASOS penultimate Jon chapter)

[El Pinko Grande]

I'm still not convinced that R'hllor exists. In my opinion, magic is just another natural force that people claim deities are responsible for.

:agree:

[ARYa_Nym]

If it's not religion it would still be magical forces working against each other.

[Mark3]

I'm still not convinced that R'hllor exists. In my opinion, magic is just another natural force that people claim deities are responsible for.

Also agreed. R'Hllor and the religion of the red priests is, IMO, just mythology attached to fire sorcery.

I noted in another thread - we see the same thing withe the religion of the North (in Bran's ADWD chapters). The weirwood trees and "old gods" are not actually gods - they are greenseers who have bonded with the wood.

[It is not known]

I made a thread about this yesterday, but it has not yet been approved for some strange reason. Anyway, Cotter Pyke states in his letter to Jon that "there are dead things in the water". Later, Moqorro states that the drowned god is a thrall to the great other.

IMO this means that the drowned god exists and has power.

So basically, we have rhllor and the old gods on one side, and the great other and the drowned god on the other side.

I wonder if the Damphair will start getting magical powers in TWoW. Maybe his kisses will start reviving people from the dead as zombies/wights.

Yes that was something else that set of alarm bells with me.

Another thing I forgot to mention in the OP was that it's suspicious that Davos, Stannis' most loyal man, was drowned and came back.

[Forseti]

I don't think the Drowned God actually involves magic or divinity at all. It seems more like a cult based on mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, and brainwashing through near-death experiences. People have been known to be driven to religious loopyness by less, in the real world.

[bradfish]

I also question whether the Drowned god exists or has any power. Especially since Victarion mentions the Drowned God's priests can't survive on seawater alone.

Aeron Damphair and other priests might bless men with it and swallow a mouthful or two from time to time to strengthen their faith, but no mortal man could drink of the deep sea for days at a time and hope to live. “You

If he does exist, he can't hate R'hllor all that much, otherwise Moqorro would surly be dead.

[queenbme80]

I don't think Stannis has anything to do with the Others or Drowned God. Baratheons have dragon blood in them. I think either Stannis or one of his nephews is the third dragon. I have not finished A Dance with Dragons yet. The two prophecys are very confusing but Stannis and his two nephews have the most dragon in them than any other character that claims to. Do I believe Stannis is Azor Ahai, no. The warlocks said three dragons though. Daenerys and Aegon are two. Who is the third?

[armidil0]

http://asoiaf.wester...joys-long-read/

http://asoiaf.wester...vs-drowned-god/

Have fun.

[Lady Seaworth]

I made a thread about this yesterday, but it has not yet been approved for some strange reason. Anyway, Cotter Pyke states in his letter to Jon that "there are dead things in the water". Later, Moqorro states that the drowned god is a thrall to the great other.

IMO this means that the drowned god exists and has power.

This is interesting, although I always thought the letter from Cotter Pyke just referred to wights rising from the sea, which doesn't seem too unrealistic given that there have been deaths on and around the coast (and even some of the ships from Eastwatch were wrecked on the way). If wights are dead, it follows that they don't need to breathe, so I don't see why they shouldn't be able to survive underwater. I don't think the existence of wights in the sea would necessarily imply the support of the Drowned God either: if they can only be harmed by fire, then nothing in the sea would be able to stop them, even if the Drowned God existed and wanted them out.

[Black Crow]

She does say that, but I think that she only meant it in the sense that she believes the Drowned God is a false god who keeps men from recognizing R'hllor, the true god. She previously mentioned that no other gods exist except for R'hllor and The One Who Can't be Named, who is the creator of the Others.

Before getting too excited about assuming that this whole business is about R'Hllor and his champion Azor Ahai against the Great Other, its worth looking at this SSM from, I think, 2006:

There are several competing religions in this series now. Should we be wondering if some are more true than others? In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" — whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out.

There's also a Dany chapter just after the taking of Mereen where she essentially says the same thing and GRRM has also said that Mel is both a charlatan and pursuing her own agenda so assuming that of all the gods featured R'Hllor and the Great Other (who is probably R'Hllor anyway) are the only true gods and that there's a connection between the Others and the Great Other is pretty dangerous.