[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Sand Snake No. 9]

She'll still be the best match in Westeros. Any children she has will be cousins to the Lord of the Vale, the Lord of Riverrun, and the Lord of Winterfell. Those ties are incredibly valuable. She is also Rickon's heir for years to come until he grows up, marries, and has children. We don't know yet how the situation with Riverrun will turn out but assuming the best for Edmure's kid ('cause Edmure's toast!) she'd likely be named heir to Riverrun until that child grows up too.

Don't forget Robb's Will, which will probably surface sooner or later. Even if the rest of Westeros doesn't honor the will, the Northman will. Any husband of Sansa who wants to take the North will have to do so at the head of an army, and then contend with challenges to his and his heirs claims forever. That's one valuable tie down.

The Tullys don't hold Riverrun any more, Emmon Frey and his Lannister wife do. Even if Emmon, his wife and all his heirs are eliminated and Edmure can reclaim Riverrun, he'll do it with a Frey wife. Not a recommendation to the Starks, or even one Stark. That's another tie down.

Sansa is only cousin to the Lord of the Vale as long as Sweetrobin stays alive. He will die very soon, and Harry the Heir will inherit. That's tie three gone.

I don't think Tyrion will die until the bitter end, but I do think that Sansa might die sooner, and that the evil Littlefinger might do it if he's under pressure. I see him as the "if I can't have her, nobody will!"

[voodooqueen126]

I think that Tyrion will either have a "glorious" ending - i.e. become Lord Lannister of Casterly Rock (to spite Tywin's ghost) or die young in the last book. I think GRRM has strong feelings for Tyrion, and won't do things by halves; so I tend to doubt that he'll end up in a cozy cottage with Tysha or Penny. I could definitely be wrong, though!

I am less than optimistic, though, that Tyrion and Sansa will still be married at the end of the series. Tyrion seems to think more about Shae and Tysha than he does about Sansa; and it's doubtful that Sansa will ever love him; and Tyrion is something of a fool for love, probably because he got so little of it as a child, and has had to buy sexual love as an adult. Rather said, because both Tyrion and Sansa have a strong need for love; and would make good parents.

I presume that Tyrion will end up as Lord of Casterly Rock, with him being Martin's favourite character and all.

[littlebird_]

Whatever Sansa's reaction to Cersei's experiences, I think it will lay out a lot of what we can expect from Sansa personally through the final (fingers crossed) two books. I desperately hope she retains at least a small capacity for pity, because I think that ability to feel sympathy for people who have caused her immeasurable pain is what will stop Sansa from becoming a heartless, laugh-at-the-suffering-of-innocents schemer like Littlefinger. Sansa may have to make awful, even indefensible decisions in the game of thrones, but that compassion will make her an infinitely more careful and subtle of a player-- and that's better for everyone.

I agree, I think it will tell us a lot about the woman she might be becoming and I do hope she expresses some pity because despite everything Sansa has been able to hold onto her humanity for this long, I would be saddened to see it completely lost. I am sure she will end up making some decisions that are immoral decisions but if she doesn't keep some of her compassion she is no longer Sansa. That might be the duality of Alayne/Sansa, in her thoughts as Alayne she is less compassionate and more hardened 'father and I know better'kind of thoughts so perhaps her compassion winning in the end will mean she will go back to being Sansa.

I don't think Sansa owes it to him to try and make it work or anything, any more than she owes it to anyone else to love them or marry them. To me, it's just a question of: if they do want to stay married, what expectations do they have for the relationship, and what arrangements should they make so they're most likely to meet those expectations?

I am really enjoying your scenarios on how Sansa and Tyrion might act and what possible interests they have in the situation. Even if they never meet again, at one point one of them is going to have to consider the possibility of annulment or continuing the marriage. We know that this is something Sansa will face more immediately. I think when we do get a Sansa chapter her thoughts on the issue of Harry might be telling. Initially the marriage protects her but sooner or later it might also begin to limit her. Stannis refers to her as Lady Lannister, I think Sansa would take that as an insult. Whatever the possible advantages, I am not sure she would ever want to be called Lady Lannister. But of course it is hard to foresee in what positions either one will be when the issue arises again. Will Sansa need the marriage in order to help establish peace or will she need it to be annulled to finally go back home. The same with Tyrion, does he need the marriage for a political reason or would it be an unnecessary limitation for him, for example if he becomes Hand of the queen or some high level position like that wouldn't it be politically a better move to get some sympathy from the North and say I am annulling the marriage and I never consummated it so as a Lannister I give you back Sansa Stark than to state yeah whatever I'll keep my wife. The North is never going to accept that marriage. That marriage is never going to cause an alliance and will always be a contentious issue between the North and the South. Of course, assuming he is in some position of power. If he is not and he feels like he needs a wife then he might force Sansa to stay with him.

[trio]

Don't forget Robb's Will, which will probably surface sooner or later. Even if the rest of Westeros doesn't honor the will, the Northman will. Any husband of Sansa who wants to take the North will have to do so at the head of an army, and then contend with challenges to his and his heirs claims forever. That's one valuable tie down.

To be honest, by the time that could potentially happen, the North will have been so decimated...I'm not sure there'll be an army left.

And right now, WF belongs to Roose Bolton. Who's the biggest turncoat the North has ever seen. And whilst Stannis is attacking, I don't see the Northmen rising up in rebellion against him.

I'm' just not sure that the North are as organised as you think, tbh.

(And who would have a better claim? The Starks don't seem to have many cousins - the Karstarks? It's still pretty far removed)

But I suspect the point is moot anyhow - I really think that if anyone survives the series, it'll be Rickon, so there wouldn't be any protest there. And another point - he's only what? 5? 6? He'll need a "Regent" or "Castellan" or whatever the hell the word is. Someone to run the castle till he comes of age. Who better than his older sister?

BTW, did we ever find out if Edmure's wife had a boy or a girl?

[Alexia]

I don't know, him ending up with Casterly Rock would be so tacky and garish. We're not even sure his father was a Lannister at this point. As for me, I've long thought the Lannisters would be completely pulverized by the end of the series and Tyrek Lannister would end up inheriting whatever is left of their power.

I don't know why everyone is so set on this silly Tyrion is a Targaryen theory. It ruins everything about Tywin and Tyrion's characters that is so fascinating. That would be a really dumb turn of events, IMO. Even worse than Jon somehow ascending to the throne based on Targaryen blood and that was is pretty gag-worthy.

Don't forget Robb's Will, which will probably surface sooner or later. Even if the rest of Westeros doesn't honor the will, the Northman will. Any husband of Sansa who wants to take the North will have to do so at the head of an army, and then contend with challenges to his and his heirs claims forever. That's one valuable tie down.

No, not really. For one thing, assuming Jon is named in the will the only way it is valid is if Jon is legitimized. Only a king can legitimize him, so unless you recognize Robb as a king (which brings you directly into conflict with all the rest of the kings) you don't recognize the validity of that. Plus, Jon is refusing to usurp his sister's claim and the Manderlys are going to support Rickon while acknowledging Stannis as King.

But all that aside, it doesn't really matter because Sansa is not going to be Lady of Winterfell at the end. Of no other plot point do I feel so certain. Her children will still be cousins to the future lord. I am quite certain that Emmon Frey and his Lannister wife are going to die soon, and I intend to uncork champagne when it happens. I have my Grand Theory that Sansa will be Lady of Riverrun, but lets say Edmure retakes it (ain't gonna happen), he is still Sansa's uncle as is the Blackfish (actually possible future lord, unlike Edmure).

I'll give you the Vale though, but I'm assuming that she marries before Robert dies.

[A Maidens Fantasy]

He's kind, which by now I think Sansa values more than anything. Her dislike of him stemmed more from the fact that he was a Lannister than his dwarfism.

She was physically repulsed by him at their wedding night, even though she really tried to se past his uglyness as a real Lady would. I don't think that would change even if Tyrion turns out to be a Targ and not a Lannister. Or if he renounces his family and takes another last name.

I think this thread has shown, there is no hope for their marriage (unless GRRM just makes it so, because Tyrion is his favorite character :shocked: ). I really enjoy the analysis and good arguments put forward here! I am a bit more optimstic than most of the rest of you on Tyrion and Sansa meeting again, because I am putting my money on Ser Shadrich (the Mad Mouse) abducting Sansa from the Vale. and on Tyrion FINALLY meeting up with Dany and persuading her to go to Westeros like yesterday already. The plot has to move forward in WoW, it is like a coiled spring waiting to go *boing*.

[littlebird_]

She was physically repulsed by him at their wedding night, even though she really tried to se past his uglyness as a real Lady would. I don't think that would change even if Tyrion turns out to be a Targ and not a Lannister. Or if he renounces his family and takes another last name.

You are right she is not physically attracted to him but if he weren't a Lannister and she wasn't forced into this marriage, I think Sansa would have tried to make it work, she would have tried to find some way to love him or at least appreciate him and she would have been more friendly and charming yet she didn't really try at all because he was a Lannister and she was forced into it.

I think this thread has shown, there is no hope for their marriage (unless GRRM just makes it so, because Tyrion is his favorite character :shocked: ). I really enjoy the analysis and good arguments put forward here! I am a bit more optimstic than most of the rest of you on Tyrion and Sansa meeting again, because I am putting my money on Ser Shadrich (the Mad Mouse) abducting Sansa from the Vale. and on Tyrion FINALLY meeting up with Dany and persuading her to go to Westeros like yesterday already. The plot has to move forward in WoW, it is like a coiled spring waiting to go *boing*.

I am not sure it can happen in TWOW, I don't see Dany making her way to Westeros until the last book and once that happens the fight against the Others might take over the story completely. Though I don't know some days I feel like this is one resolution that will happen because they are both POV characters but other days it feels like there are more important resolutions for both characters before it comes to them meeting each other again. Tyrion has to see Jaime again, Sansa has to see her siblings again and maybe hopefully Cersei.

Also not so sure about Sansa escaping the Vale, I am still convinced that her arc is rooted in the Vale and the next book will concentrate on her reactions to LF's schemes and what she does afterwards, her getting out of the Vale just leaves that arc half finished without any resolution.

And another point - he's only what? 5? 6? He'll need a "Regent" or "Castellan" or whatever the hell the word is. Someone to run the castle till he comes of age. Who better than his older sister?

I think this might be one of the possible futures for Sansa being set up by GRRM because of all the parallels to her role in the Vale, taking care of the castle and raising a troubled young kid who is Lord of the House. Of course, I consider Sansa going back home to raise Rickon to be one of the happiest endings for her so not sure if it will happen but the story definitely alludes to it.

[rue721]

I am really enjoying your scenarios on how Sansa and Tyrion might act and what possible interests they have in the situation.

I'm happy to hear that, because I'm about to bend your ear with some more possibilities -- out of left field, probably :P :

I wonder if Tyrion would be able to use the Second Sons to secure the North and/or Casterly Rock? To me, his big issue is getting rid of the death sentence on his head. He could have Cercei killed, which might (with some extra maneuvering?) get rid of the death sentence, and use the Second Sons to storm Casterly Rock to get their promised shares of its gold.

Or, he could wait until Cercei is desperate to flee to Casterly Rock for some reason. If he could find some way to bar her from the estate, he could cut a deal with Cercei that gives him half the gold and the title (since the damn title seems important to him) and gives her the other half of the gold, the lands and estate -- including the right to hide out in it right then. He could meet up with Sansa at Casterly Rock for the final deal-making and to collect the gold (and so Sansa could make a big show of acting better than Cercei), send word to the Second Sons to meet them in the North, and start heading there. The deal with the Second Sons could be that once each Second Son has put up tent on a tract of his promised land (since I think those contracts Tyrion signed included tracts for at least some soldiers? and he could increase that to all soldiers if necessary), Tyrion will go through and distribute the promised gold. So then by the time Tyrion and Sansa arrive up North, the whole place will be occupied by Tyrion's men. If fighting starts before Tyrion gets a chance to distribute the gold, oh well, right? The guys will just have to protect Tyrion and their spots of land until that's over, if they want to get paid. Anyway, Tyrion and Sansa only need to keep possession of some Northern land (I don't think they'd need to be at Winterfell itself) until Sansa has a child. Then that child can have the *first* name of Stark, and Tyrion and Sansa could declare that child the Lord/Lady of Winterfell (still not necessarily taking possession of it, though). Hopefully at least some of the men will decide they'd rather farm their own land in the North than go all the way back East for more fighting, and just stay and take wives -- they'll be *relatively* loyal to Sansa and Tyrion in that case, I would think. For the long-term, maybe it would be a good idea for Sansa to stay in the North (maybe at Winterfell, if they want to fight for it, maybe at some other random estate), popping out as many children as possible. Meanwhile, the firstborn ("Stark") could to be given as a ward/hostage to be raised by a Stark bannerman family -- to keep off the Lannister taint and to offer extra martial protection. Meanwhile, Tyrion can go around doing whatever he needs to do (probably at KL?), seeking his fortune. By the time "Stark" is of age, wouldn't he be in a good position for either storming the old Winterfell along with his loyal bannermen or just building a new place and declaring it Winterfell and himself the lord of it?

This is all based on the idea, however, that Tyrion has Rickon killed way beforehand. Which...I don't know. Would he do it? He's had men killed before, for less personal gain, but on the other hand, it seems *so* cruel, and if Sansa found out, I don't know what she would do. If she were already pregnant, maybe nothing. Though with Sansa...hard to figure?

But still, I don't know, that's what I think would be best case scenario if Tyrion and Sansa were to stay married. Tyrion has so much to gain by being with Sansa, as far as I can see, because if she manages to make herself and her offspring seem like legitimate heirs to the North and he manages business in the South well, they've got a huge swath of the world covered. And things like a lack of love and family life with Sansa shouldn't matter for him, because he can have mistresses and bastardsall he wants. But Sansa, on the other hand, has so much more to lose by staying with Tyrion -- she'll have no chance of ever being in a relationship with a man she loves (unless she magically falls in love with him, but I don't see that happening, personally), if Tyrion goes down he might take her (and Winterfell!) with him, she'll have to be Lady Lannister forever, and I honestly don't think she's ambitious enough about land and titles and all to make the killing and sacrifice worth it to her. I also don't think she could actually maintain such a loveless existence forever, and if she didn't, that's something I don't think Tyrion could forgive (being cuckolded). The other issue is that honestly, I don't see how Tyrion won't have to sell his soul if he really wants to take charge of all that land and to give up on the ideal of a loving marriage and all that stuff. I don't think he'd turn out to be a very good person by the end of all that. But who knows? He's turned out more kindly than expected so far, I guess? Honestly, I don't know why he's not already more worried than he is that he'll turn out to be a carbon copy of his father, since that's what I worry/think will happen to him (if he doesn't die soon).

By the way, I don't think Sansa having dwarf children is really an issue, because it seems to me that what's going on with Tyrion is actually that he has some kind of leg or spinal deformity rather than what we think of as dwarfism now. Judging from how he fit into that (dead?) boy's clothes, his arms are the length of any other man's (longer than a kid's), and he's able to swing heavy weapons and carry heavy buckets, so I would say his arms probably are as strong as any other man's, too. On the other hand, the boy's pants are too long in the leg, he's constantly getting leg cramps and pains, complains about having to stand or walk for long periods, and he's mentioned as "waddling" -- so I would say something is very wrong with his legs. Actually, if I had to guess, I would say he probably has some kind of spina bifida or similar spinal deformity. It came to mind because people were talking about how a person with achondroplasia would have arms too short to do some of the things Tyrion does, and because I have a friend with a spinal deformity who has the same kind of upper body/lower body split in terms of function and size that Tyrion seems to. If that's the case, though, I would think his back and hips are kind of fragile and it's a good thing Tywin didn't want him tumbling all over the place. Though I mean, duh. If you show up with a medical condition or some obvious deformity, maybe throwing yourself all over stone castle floors isn't the best plan. I don't know what kind of doofus would encourage that.

[Alexia]

There seems to be a misconception about this but if Sansa and Tyrion were to have a child, with the intention of making that child Lord of Winterfell -- kid's last name would be Stark. The Stark line already continued through the female line once already and Stark is every bit as much as a title as it is a surname. The Boltons might have been able to get away with supplanting the Stark line (it looked like they might have been planning to try) but no way can the Lannisters do that.

[rue721]

She was physically repulsed by him at their wedding night, even though she really tried to se past his uglyness as a real Lady would. I don't think that would change even if Tyrion turns out to be a Targ and not a Lannister. Or if he renounces his family and takes another last name.

I agree that I don't think they'll ever fall in love (just Tyrion's presence would bring back so many bad memories for Sansa, I would think. And actually, same for Tyrion). But relative to the horrors all these characters have seen and gone through and inflicted on each other, screwing an ugly guy once in a while doesn't seem that bad. I don't really think Tyrion's looks are the most important thing at play here.

Also, I'm sorry, but it's not like that wedding night was going to be a delight for either of them. A terrified 12-year-old virgin who is physically repulsed by you is probably not the most tempting bed-partner, just the way a deformed man riddled with god-even-knows from the whore multitude and who may have had a hand in murdering your entire family isn't. But I think in that case, anything that happens in the bedroom is just a means to an end. Sadly, that's a huge component of both a Lord's and a Lady's job so....I guess some people get better gigs than others, but we've all got to work?

Jeez, sometimes when you think of how hard they're fighting for such a shitty life in the end, it makes you wonder what the point for them is, right? How bad must the lives of smallfolks be, if this is the best any living human in Westeros can aspire to?

[littlebird_]

I wonder if Tyrion would be able to use the Second Sons to secure the North and/or Casterly Rock? To me, his big issue is getting rid of the death sentence on his head. He could have Cercei killed, which might (with some extra maneuvering?) get rid of the death sentence, and use the Second Sons to storm Casterly Rock to get their promised shares of its gold.

Tyrion seems to be focused on Casterly Rock but even if he wasn't I don't think there is any way the North is going to accept Sansa essentially being a hostage of Lannisters and however it turns out as long as Sansa is married to a Lannister to them she is a hostage. Anything that comes out of that marriage will no longer be accepted. It also brings forth the matter of why Sansa is continuing this marriage, why would she if she has a claim to Winterfell not use the Northernman to get rid of the Lannisters. This is not a matter of her having ambition for her own but not wanting any Lannister near Winterfell.

I am not even so certain Tyrion has that much ambition, if he had received Casterly Rock from Tywin I don't think he would have looked for more lands to conquer. He wanted CR but because he was told he could never get it he started dreaming of possible lordship of Winterfell which if he thought rationally about he would have realized would have never happened either but by that time he was just fooling himself. I think if he gets some clarity of mind and is not just driven by vengeance then his first and foremost aim will always be CR and if he does get that he will focus on keeping it. If he does manage to become Lord of CR and assuming he has some favor with whoever is holding the Iron Throne then he might want to annul the marriage because as Lord of CR I am sure he can find a wife who is going to like being Lady Lannister more than Sansa. If he insists on Sansa, I feel it will be more out of pettiness and not wanting to give her an easy way out of a life with him than any practical political gain she might bring into the marriage.

Of course, if he does become convinced that he wants to rule CR and the North then he needs Sansa but even with Sansa that won't work because he is a Lannister, he has to realize that.

Something I thought of now, I wonder what his reaction will be to Dany's Stark hate, will he be no they are not so bad or will he just start telling the story of the evil young girl who wronged him.

[Silverin]

I'm happy to hear that, because I'm about to bend your ear with some more possibilities -- out of left field, probably :P :

I wonder if Tyrion would be able to use the Second Sons to secure the North and/or Casterly Rock? To me, his big issue is getting rid of the death sentence on his head. He could have Cercei killed, which might (with some extra maneuvering?) get rid of the death sentence, and use the Second Sons to storm Casterly Rock to get their promised shares of its gold.

I doubt it would happen. The North is supposed to never have been conquered The Mount Cailin as far as we know cannot be taken from the South not even Aegon the Conqueror was able to do it. Not to mention there is winter. Of course it means there is fewer nortmen, but those northmen used to that wether and fight way better in those circumstances than southern knights. Reread Asha chapters if you dont believe me. And I think it would be true for selswords as well. Probably even more, since they fight for money, but if they have to choose between freeze to death and not getting the lands I guess they would choose the later.

And the Second Sons dont have that many member, I say even with bigger army to take the North from the South wont happen. And at the eastern coastal there is Maenderlys fleet. I think it is bigger too than the ones the Second sons can get.

I actually wonder what the second Son's are worth. They dont seem that many. The most famous sellsword company is the Golden Company, but even the Tyrells or Dorne have more man, so I dont really know what Tyrion will use it, not to mention the enourmous money he promised to them.

[rue721]

I am not even so certain Tyrion has that much ambition, if he had received Casterly Rock from Tywin I don't think he would have looked for more lands to conquer.

Why does he even want Casterly Rock? The gold? I'm perplexed by that whole scene where he decides to sign "Lord of Casterly Rock" in blood, just after signing away tons and tons of gold. That seems super symbolic, but symbolic of what? All I can think of is "Casterly Rock or bust!" But that seems stupid.

I wonder what his reaction will be to Dany's Stark hate, will he be no they are not so bad or will he just start telling the story of the evil young girl who wronged him.

While I would find it absolutely hilarious if he were to start telling Dany a story about evil, horrible 12-year-old Sansa Stark, I think that's probably the worst possible idea. Dany's not a complete nincompoop. Probably he should just come clean that he has a sort-of marriage to Sansa and let Dany come up with a basic plan, then twist that plan into the best shape he can. Dany's the one in charge, so I think he should probably wait and see what her basic reaction to the marriage is before he starts trying to bullshit her about what it means and how he can use or get rid of it.

I think Tyrion's best bet with her is actually just to pitch himself by saying: I'm a very good bureaucrat. Tell me what to manage and I'll get it running smoothly. If he's organizing things, it might also help him get the lay of the land. And that's what he's good at anyway, so if he's given duties like that, he'll probably get into Dany's good graces in no time.

The little fly in the ointment, though, is Tyrion's mental state. I'm wondering if he's going to shoot himself in the foot during a moment of rash pride or something.

LOL I just realized what all this reminds me of -- that season of "Prison Break" where T-Bag is stuck in a foreign jail and is trying to get in the bigshot prisoner's good graces. Well, I hope Tyrion is as slick as T-Bag, I guess, though I don't really know how anyone could be.

[Alexia]

Something I thought of now, I wonder what his reaction will be to Dany's Stark hate, will he be no they are not so bad or will he just start telling the story of the evil young girl who wronged him.

:laugh:

Daenerys, never marry a Stark! Mine framed me for murder, your brother died because of one....

Seriously, I don't think he'll go blathering to anyone about evil 12-year old Sansa Stark who he forcibly married. He's decided to take responsibility for Joffrey's death now that he's been convicted (didn't he even remember it that way in his own thoughts once?) and I think at some level he knows how wrong he did her. He still thinks of her as his child-bride and that she is very naive and innocent (despite being framed by her!). I'm actually surprised he didn't spend more time wondering who used to her frame him since he thought in ASOS that she couldn't have done it alone, but I wondered why Catelyn didn't spend more time thinking about LF after Jaime made it clear that the dagger tale was a lie so who knows.

Either way, ADWD comforted me in the sense that I don't think he plans to take vengeance on her and that he still recognizes the horror of the position he put her in. I don't think he fully recognizes just how she felt (a lot went right over his head and got blamed, as usual, on his dwarfism) and I think he perceives himself as way too much of a victim -- but I don't worry about him trying to force the marriage through anymore. Assuming he survives the end, I think he'll let her go without a fight.

[littlebird_]

Why does he even want Casterly Rock? The gold? I'm perplexed by that whole scene where he decides to sign "Lord of Casterly Rock" in blood, just after signing away tons and tons of gold. That seems super symbolic, but symbolic of what? All I can think of is "Casterly Rock or bust!" But that seems stupid.

I think CR symbolizes everything he has been denied in life and by reclaiming that he gets the ultimate revenge (clearly killing Tywin wasn't enough). But also Tyrion has an interesting relationship with being a Lannister, he clearly isn't comfortable with everything his family represents but he is also a Lannister and a big part of his issues stem from never being accepted a Lannister. That's why I have problems with him suddenly not being a Lannister, it takes away one of his main issues in life and solves it for him rather than him dealing with it as a character. He wants to be Lord of Casterly Rock, he wants to be a Lannister, he probably also feels like he is the best of them and deserves it more than any of them and wants and needs to prove it desperately. More than anything he wants recognition.

While I would find it absolutely hilarious if he were to start telling Dany a story about evil, horrible 12-year-old Sansa Stark, I think that's probably the worst possible idea. Dany's not a complete nincompoop. Probably he should just come clean that he has a sort-of marriage to Sansa and let Dany come up with a basic plan, then twist that plan into the best shape he can. Dany's the one in charge, so I think he should probably wait and see what her basic reaction to the marriage is before he starts trying to bullshit her about what it means and how he can use or get rid of it.

I think Tyrion's best bet with her is actually just to pitch himself by saying: I'm a very good bureaucrat. Tell me what to manage and I'll get it running smoothly. If he's organizing things, it might also help him get the lay of the land. And that's what he's good at anyway, so if he's given duties like that, he'll probably get into Dany's good graces in no time.

The little fly in the ointment, though, is Tyrion's mental state. I'm wondering if he's going to shoot himself in the foot during a moment of rash pride or something.

It wouldn't exactly be the best recommendation of his skills if he keeps going on about how he was fooled by his 12 year old wife :D But I am not sure how he needs to approach it either, he is already going to have to try really hard to be trusted because he is a Lannister but now he is a Lannister married to a Stark. Perhaps he really just shouldn't mention the marriage at all but he will have to give an opinion on the Starks sooner or later.

I think his main issue with Dany will be his misogyn, he can not just go around talking about raping women in front of her, even knowing that he basically held a girl captive will not endear him to her. It is definitely a different sort of relationship for Tyrion where his usual attitudes about women will not be welcome.

:laugh:

Daenerys, never marry a Stark! Mine framed me for murder, your brother died because of one....

lol marrying a Stark never ends well!

Seriously, I don't think he'll go blathering to anyone about evil 12-year old Sansa Stark who he forcibly married. He's decided to take responsibility for Joffrey's death now that he's been convicted (didn't he even remember it that way in his own thoughts once?) and I think at some level he knows how wrong he did her. He still thinks of her as his child-bride and that she is very naive and innocent (despite being framed by her!). I'm actually surprised he didn't spend more time wondering who used to her frame him since he thought in ASOS that she couldn't have done it alone, but I wondered why Catelyn didn't spend more time thinking about LF after Jaime made it clear that the dagger tale was a lie so who knows.

I find it quite surprising that he doesn't even try to connect the dots but I think he is way too much in self-pity and anger to clearly reevaluate the events, its evident in how he thinks of Sansa, she's his child-bride, innocent and naive but she also framed him for Joffrey's murder, it doesn't make sense but he doesn't try and make sense of it. I think its supposed to show us how confused he is because the Tyrion from ACOK would have figured at least some things out or have been more suspicious of the events but in ADWD he just doesn't question that the two sides do not fit together. Once he establishes himself next to Dany and starts to focus on the politics of Westeros and the players there I think he will start to piece the picture together though.

[Alexia]

Tyrion might be able to get some mileage out of the warg and sorceress rumors that seem to be surrounding Sansa at the moment, especially given that all her siblings went around with wolves and she had one too. It seems the Targaryens are tied to sorcery and Daenerys already thinks poorly of the Starks. But aside from that, I don't see much he can use to paint Sansa in a bad light and I don't think he has the presence of mind or really the desire to start plotting to ruin her like that.

If he talks to Daenerys about Sansa, I honestly see it being more in a tone of regret than anything else.

[Silverin]

Tyrion might be able to get some mileage out of the warg and sorceress rumors that seem to be surrounding Sansa at the moment, especially given that all her siblings went around with wolves and she had one too. It seems the Targaryens are tied to sorcery and Daenerys already thinks poorly of the Starks. But aside from that, I don't see much he can use to paint Sansa in a bad light and I don't think he has the presence of mind or really the desire to start plotting to ruin her like that.

If he talks to Daenerys about Sansa, I honestly see it being more in a tone of regret than anything else.

I think badmothing Sansa would backfire in his case. For starters Tyrion has far worse repatuation than Sansa. Kingslayer, kinslayer, he killed Shae, I think it is well known she was his whore even before and during his marriage, allied with the Mountain Clan's (he wasn't popular for that), and despite the fact that using wildfire winned them the battle against Stannis, during the process some of the friendly troops were perished in it as well, he isn't remembered as the hero for it either, but more like as some relly wicked mad genius. When he was sending Robb negotiating terms about captive exchange, he was actually using it to rescue Jaime, which means he is not trustworthy even when he is offering you something )(alliance, peace or forgivness) he is capable of backstabbing. If Dany comes to Westeros siding with Tyrion (either siding with him in the Sansa thing or either trying to give him Castery Rock) honestly I don't see her earning much popularity points among the people of Westeros. Neither among the lords, neither among the smallfolks.

I think even jaime has a better image in Westeros than him.

[The Dark Griffin]

I used to think Sansa would be a shrewd political move for Aegon. Now I don't. She might serve some of his short-term problems, as many of the posters have pointed out, but in the long game (assuming there is one, and he'll live that long) it would be a severe blunder. Tyrion, during his fateful cyvasse game with Young Griff, lays out the strategy for the young prince quite clearly... move on Westeros immediately, rally Dorne and any latent Targaryen loyalists, and hold until Dany can come with her dragons. And once she arrives, Aegon is in a position of strength, and will be worthy of her hand, and of the dragons they will need to defeat the remaining resistance. Then they can turn their attention to the real threat beyond the Wall. If Aegon marries Sansa, he throws away his last hope (a fool's hope at best) at ultimate victory.

[Alexia]

I think badmothing Sansa would backfire in his case. For starters Tyrion has far worse repatuation than Sansa. Kingslayer, kinslayer, he killed Shae, I think it is well known she was his whore even before and during his marriage, allied with the Mountain Clan's (he wasn't popular for that), and despite the fact that using wildfire winned them the battle against Stannis, during the process some of the friendly troops were perished in it as well, he isn't remembered as the hero for it either, but more like as some relly wicked mad genius. When he was sending Robb negotiating terms about captive exchange, he was actually using it to rescue Jaime, which means he is not trustworthy even when he is offering you something )(alliance, peace or forgivness) he is capable of backstabbing. If Dany comes to Westeros siding with Tyrion (either siding with him in the Sansa thing or either trying to give him Castery Rock) honestly I don't see her earning much popularity points among the people of Westeros. Neither among the lords, neither among the smallfolks.

I think even jaime has a better image in Westeros than him.

All of this is why I think the man is going to die. Jon and Daenerys seem to have a better chance of survival through the end, and Jon just got himself a Cesar-style stabbing. I tend to agree with whoever it is who said that it'll be all or nothing: Tyrion either dies or ends as the Lord of Casterly Rock. But I admit, I started giggling when he signed as Lord of Casterly Rock in blood. Hopefully our favorite twisted little monkey demon will start extracting blood from House Lannister in TWOW.

I don't even want him to meet Daenerys anymore. I want him to snatch up his sellsword army and invade the West (taking us all back to Westeros), and leave Daenerys and her crazy dragons to burn Mereen. I don't want to read a book of dragon-training, I want to find out what Tyrion is going to do to Cersei, Tommen, Myrcella, Jaime, and the rest of his kin.

[littlebird_]

I think badmothing Sansa would backfire in his case. For starters Tyrion has far worse repatuation than Sansa. Kingslayer, kinslayer, he killed Shae, I think it is well known she was his whore even before and during his marriage, allied with the Mountain Clan's (he wasn't popular for that), and despite the fact that using wildfire winned them the battle against Stannis, during the process some of the friendly troops were perished in it as well, he isn't remembered as the hero for it either, but more like as some relly wicked mad genius. When he was sending Robb negotiating terms about captive exchange, he was actually using it to rescue Jaime, which means he is not trustworthy even when he is offering you something )(alliance, peace or forgivness) he is capable of backstabbing. If Dany comes to Westeros siding with Tyrion (either siding with him in the Sansa thing or either trying to give him Castery Rock) honestly I don't see her earning much popularity points among the people of Westeros. Neither among the lords, neither among the smallfolks.

I think even jaime has a better image in Westeros than him.

Yes, Tyrion is in a precarious situation, he is valuable as an administrator and he does know Westeros well but when it is time to actually go to Westeros Tyrion is not much of a help in getting Dany allies, of course does Dany need any help, she has the dragons,