Robert, Renly, or Stannis

[Petyr Middlefinger Baelish]

Can't, protest got shut down. But at least the bankers have a sense of humor about it. Unlike stannis who spends his time whining about all the wrongs the world has done him

Not all his time. I here he likes to take long walks in the snow.

[mediocre cheese]

Not all his time. I here he likes to take long walks in the snow.

He's fond of a good campfire too.

[brashcandy]

He's fond of a good campfire too.

Nothing better for grilling up some nice human steaks - unless of course you're a member of the 99% - then you just get yourself roasted for having the audacity to complain about starving.

[Revan Baratheon]

Series robert>>book robert

Series renly<<<book renly

Stannis=stannis book(from wat ive seen of teaser)

I go with king stannis

[JKeats]

Well yes, Stannis comes from a very privileged segment of Westerosi society, as does just about every major protagonist in the series. Would be rather difficult to tell the story GRRM wants to tell using characters not of the aristocracy.

But for all that wealth and privilege, Stannis doesn't have an ostentatious lifestyle. He reminds me of Warren Buffet in that way. A super rich man, but without a taste for luxury. Stannis wears plain brown clothes, his war tent is spare and spartan, he drinks water instead of wine (but with salt for some reason), on the rare occasions he dresses like a king, he is uncomfortable. He dislikes feasts and tourneys and such.

I'm not saying he's not privileged. It's not like he's ever gone hungry (apart from the siege of Storm's End I mean). But for all that, he lives like a middle class merchant.

As an aside, if we want to talk about unearned privilege, the most aggravating thing about Daenerys, and to a lesser extant Jon, is the cosmically ordained role as savior of humanity. It's one thing to be born into a human society which grants you unearned privilege. Societies can change after all. It's quite another to be supernaturally blessed by the laws of nature themselves.

[Queen Cersei I]

But for all that wealth and privilege, Stannis doesn't have an ostentatious lifestyle. He reminds me of Warren Buffet in that way. A super rich man, but without a taste for luxury. Stannis wears plain brown clothes, his war tent is spare and spartan, he drinks water instead of wine

He kind of sounds like Cato the Younger from this description. Only without the qualities that make Cato so weirdly endearing in Plutarch's Lives.

Don't know why I'm talking this way... I actually kind of like Stannis.

Well yes, Stannis comes from a very privileged segment of Westerosi society, as does just about every major protagonist in the series. Would be rather difficult to tell the story GRRM wants to tell using characters not of the aristocracy.

But for all that wealth and privilege, Stannis doesn't have an ostentatious lifestyle.

Yes, but he is rather ostentatious in his modesty, as the saying goes. He doesn't dress in drab and drink the plainest food and no wine because he wants to spend the money to give back to the people, promote equality, etc. He simply personally seems to prefer this, and, even more so, appears to tout it as proof of his supperior virtue. He's never been the charming party animal that Robert was, so he prefers to emphasize his difference; he's clearly a man above such frivoulous pleasures. Allthough the fact that he is not content simply abstaining from certain things himself, but feels the need to take them away from all (outlawing Brothels on Dragonstone, seeking to do the same in Kings Landing, not allowing singers or laugher in his feasting hall at dragonstone, etc.) suggests that he is bitter about-- and envious of-- all the pleasures he will not allow himself to partake in because of the image he needs to maintain of himself and his honor.

But for all that wealth and privilege, Stannis doesn't have an ostentatious lifestyle. He reminds me of Warren Buffet in that way. A super rich man, but without a taste for luxury. Stannis wears plain brown clothes, his war tent is spare and spartan, he drinks water instead of wine (but with salt for some reason), on the rare occasions he dresses like a king, he is uncomfortable. He dislikes feasts and tourneys and such.

Again, all this stuff-- the tent, the clothes, the ostentatious avoidence of tourneys and shows-- all make it sound as though Stannis is making a statement as much as following his natural inclinations.

Also, the fact that he "dislikes feasts and tourneys and such" would be good, especially after a king like Robert blew all the cash in the treasury on them. However, the fact is that Stannis also does his utmost to ensure that noone will enjoy any of this stuff either.

[JKeats]

You seem to be suggesting that Stannis' lack of ostentation is somehow a performance, intended to highlight his differences with Robert. To be sure, Stannis is not coy about vocally contrasting himself with Robert, but on matters such as duty and justice and indulgence in excess. But why does that need to be a show he puts on? Isn't it more likely that that is just how Stannis is? What exactly is the complaint here? That Stannis secretly wants to laugh and make merry, but pretends not to? Not very convincing really.

Or is it that he is "proud of his humility", to channel George W. Bush? I don't think that's it either. Stannis talks enough about duty and justice, but he never calls attention to his own avoidance of luxury. That's something other people notice about him, and why shouldn't they? That's just who he is. When has he ever touted that aspect of his personality as proof of his superior virtue? I'm speaking specifically here of his plainness in dress and food and such. I just had a quick glance at the Davos chapters, and Stannis never once touts any of this.

Perhaps it is enough that he just has the consumption habits that he does. Is that all it takes to be "ostentatious in his modesty"? He just can't catch a break apparently.

You are correct about the banning of prostitution on Dragonstone. As for laughter in the feast halls, this is what the Cressen prologue says: "Here there was no loud laughter, no raucous shouting such as marred the dignity of other men’s feasts; Lord Stannis did not permit such." My reading of this is not that Stannis banned laughter like some cartoon villain. Just that he doesn't want shouting and roughhousing at feasts. That's not so bad, is it? Elsewhere in Westeros, it is common practice at feasts for men to grab and paw at passing serving girls, or to make even more invasive gestures. Somehow I suspect that sort of thing would not be permitted on Dragonstone under Stannis Baratheon.

Singers. I have not been able to find a reference to Stannis banning singers on Dragonstone. That does sound like something he'd do though. That said, it's not as if he is banning bawdy laughter, singers, and general merrymaking in other peoples' homes and castles. Just his own.

[Frozen Soul]

Stannis>Renly>Robert

Robert as a King was just a horrible selfish, drunk, lusty, fat guy in terrible need of some anger management therapy and a master of the arts of ignoring problems and unpleasant subjets.

Robert the warrior was just an ass with a hammer (a bad combo/recepie for disaster) slightly obssesed with his best friend's sister new toy that got taken away, which completely justified starting a war and beating the crap out of the one responsible (its not like he enjoyed any of it...yeah right, all he wanted to do in life was to fight and anything was a good enough reason, Im sure that he suffered a lot during the whole ordeal)

Renly was funny, charismatic and fashionable. He was good company, but completely incapable of taking anything seriously which would make him an awful king, probably his council would have to run his kingdom for him just like it happened with Robert, but thing wouldnt be nearly as bad as they where with him, with so much charisma some capable characters would follow him so Im sure things would be okay (not necessarily thanks to him) and everyone would love good, funny king Renly, perhaps he may even care a little about running his kingdom...sometimes, just for the fun of it.

And finally Stannis, my favorite Baratheon (the fact that he is the last brother left means that he must be doing something right...) he is unintentionally hilarious but the best King material out there, he deserves a medal for putting up with all of Robert's shit over and over again just for the sake of brotherly duty. He is tough, strict, yet he knows he has responsabilities (a word that, along with duty was missing from his brothers vocabulary) and for that alone I almost forgive him for listening to Melisandre, burning people is not okay and he can be a hipocrite but all in all I just love this character and his many layers.

[Hear Us Roar]

Robert: hey look at me i gotz my war hamma to hit things.....ohhh no i'm fat and can't hit things

Stannis: In mah brothas shadow, nobody likes me.....brothers dies...no one likes me

Renly: I am not good at blood or war like my bro's..........but i have these fabulouse fabrics

[DurararaFTW]

Stannis>Renly>Robert

Robert as a King was just a horrible selfish, drunk, lusty, fat guy in terrible need of some anger management therapy and a master of the arts of ignoring problems and unpleasant subjets.

Robert the warrior was just an ass with a hammer (a bad combo/recepie for disaster) slightly obssesed with his best friend's sister new toy that got taken away, which completely justified starting a war and beating the crap out of the one responsible (its not like he enjoyed any of it...yeah right, all he wanted to do in life was to fight and anything was a good enough reason, Im sure that he suffered a lot during the whole ordeal)

Okay, A. Aerys had already decided he wants Robert and Ned's heads on platter before either could say or do anything about Lyanna, it was war or lay down and die, Lyanna and Rhaegar had little to do with that And B. when the war started, they definitely had every reason to think she was abducted and getting raped, if only because that's how Brandon's squire, the only one that survived to tell the story brought the news North.

Robert didn't start the war (beyond deciding to not instantly offer his fiancee to Prince Rhaegar when the honourable Prince rode straight past his pregnant wife to name Lyanna his Queen of Love and Beauty), Rhaegar, Brandon and Aerys share that blame. Robert was just the guy that won it, which sucked for everyone.

[Revan Baratheon]

Stannis>Renly>Robert

Robert as a King was just a horrible selfish, drunk, lusty, fat guy in terrible need of some

anger management therapy and a master of the

arts of ignoring problems and unpleasant

subjets.

Robert the warrior was just an ass with a hammer (a bad combo/recepie for disaster) slightly obssesed with his best friend's sister new toy that got taken away, which completely justified starting a war and

beating the crap out of the one responsible (its

not like he enjoyed any of it...yeah right, all he

wanted to do in life was to fight and anything

was a good enough reason, Im sure that he

suffered a lot during the whole ordeal)

Renly was funny, charismatic and fashionable. He was good company, but completely

incapable of taking anything seriously which

would make him an awful king, probably his

council would have to run his kingdom for him

just like it happened with Robert, but thing

wouldnt be nearly as bad as they where with

him, with so much charisma some capable

characters would follow him so Im sure things

would be okay (not necessarily thanks to him)

and everyone would love good, funny king Renly,

perhaps he may even care a little about running

his kingdom...sometimes, just for the fun of it.

And finally Stannis, my favorite Baratheon (the

fact that he is the last brother left means that he

must be doing something right...) he is

unintentionally hilarious but the best King

material out there, he deserves a medal for

putting up with all of Robert's shit over and over

again just for the sake of brotherly duty. He is

tough, strict, yet he knows he has

responsabilities (a word that, along with duty

was missing from his brothers vocabulary) and

for that alone I almost forgive him for listening to

Melisandre, burning people is not okay and he

can be a hipocrite but all in all I just love this

character and his many layers.

I agree stannis FTW!! Robert was a bitch for giving storm's end to renly who did nothing to earn it, and not stannis who starved himself for his lout of a brother and chose brother over king

Although even robert never deserved to get dear,sweet queen Cersie...

[Tini]

I agree stannis FTW!! Robert was a bitch for giving storm's end to renly who did nothing to earn it, and not stannis who starved himself for his lout of a brother and chose brother over king

Stannis was sent to Dragonstone to quell its resistance. Renley couldn't have done that. It was a good idea to install Stannis on Dragonstone to keep it under control. Storm's End shouldn't have gone to Renley, though.

[Tini]

Robert didn't start the war (beyond deciding to not instantly offer his fiancee to Prince Rhaegar when the honourable Prince rode straight past his pregnant wife to name Lyanna his Queen of Love and Beauty), Rhaegar, Brandon and Aerys share that blame. Robert was just the guy that won it, which sucked for everyone.

It wasn't Robert who won it. It was the alliance of House Stark and the North, House Arryn and the Vale, House Tully and the Riverlands, and House Baratheon that won the war. The Lannisters also participated. Then they went, and gave the kingdom they won to Robert Baratheon which showed a sad lack of judgment on everybody's part.

[Candor]

In order of preference, from highest to lowest: Stannis, Renly. oops did I forget Robert? Soz. Because there's no way I would want him for my king.

I think Stannis and Renly have good kingly qualities to begin with. They also are made better by (some of the) people surrounding them. For Stannis this good influence is clearly Davos. For Renly, I suspect Margaery, and certain members of her family would have been great to have around when ruling. Robert had some good people around him (read: Jon Arryn, Ned Stark), but he did not have kingly qualities to begin with. Combine that with the fact that his personality does not lend itself to listening to wise suggestions and acting on them, or even being duly concerned with important matters of state at all, and you have a problem. I repeat: I would never want Robert as my sovereign ruler.

That said, on a personal level, how I think about them: For one, I think Renly would have been great to be a friend of. Stannis, I wouldn't find insufferable but I could see being a sort-of friend that you don't hang around very often. Robert, I wouldn't even want as a sometimes friend. In the beginning I could see being drawn to Robert's "zest" for life, but i think that would have soured very quickly as one got to know him, find out the truths about his debaucheries, and see more undesirable traits that he possesses.

Now, problems. I think I've made my point clear on Robert so I won't even discuss him. The problem with Stannis I think boils down to two things: one, Melisandre's interventions. One big point that always gets raised against Stannis is his burning of others' religious sites. Which is horrible. However, do I think he would have done it had he not been embroiled with Mel and her prophecy/religious-stuff? Absolutely not. I don't think it would be in Stannis' nature to do such a thing without that sort of catalyst in action. The second problem with Stannis is that he lacks a certain kind of balance. I like that in matters of justice and other practical situations, he weighs things and is almost too just. But I think outside of those, he needs to show some flexibility to make an optimal ruler. I will compare it to the reality show Survivor: Playing a physical game? Good. Playing a strategical game? Good. But a crucial element is the social game. Stannis is lacking in this area. However, I think Davos makes up for some of that. The problem with this? You can't always rely on a crutch. It's good that he has Davos to temper his decisions, but I would like to see Stannis develop some of this for himself.

In response to something I saw on another page of this thread, what I would love to see is if Selyse does try to advocate burning Shireen, Stannis says fuck that, shields his child, and deals with the situation as is necessary. And I don't think this is impossible. I got the vibe that Stannis might care for his daughter. Mostly this is a subtle vibe but a specific example is when Renly was reiterating the rumor that was spread about Shireen being Patchface's get, Stannis was all SHUT YO FACE! This could be to save pride, but I would like to think that it was also partially because Bitch why you talking about my daughter like that?

Okay, now to problems with Renly. I think Renly's problem is like his brother, he also lacks balance. He plays a great social game, a pretty good strategical one as well, but he needed to become more practical to be the best sort of ruler. I don't think he's frivolous, as this is not seeming to be the case via the text, but he could stand to learn some of Stannis' ways of how to act with responsibility/justice/etcetera. I think this is really his only big stumbling block.

I must say on my re-read though, I liked Renly far less than the first time, mostly in CoK circa the parley because I found some of his behavior distasteful. There's a time where laughing is merited and others where it borders on inappropriate/cruel. Renly has good qualities but there are moments where I do get a bad taste in my mouth. Mais, c'est la vie.

In the end, I would pick Stannis. I think he would be quite a good ruler, though his work would be largely unappreciated, I think, by his subjects.

[Slurms McKenzie]

The problem with Stannis I think boils down to two things: one, Melisandre's interventions. One big point that always gets raised against Stannis is his burning of others' religious sites. Which is horrible. However, do I think he would have done it had he not been embroiled with Mel and her prophecy/religious-stuff? .

Meh, not that big of a deal. Such things have happened in the past. Such as when Thomas Cromwell convinced Henry VIII to dissolve the monasteries, which condemned thousands of elderly monks to homelessness due to the paltry pension they were offered and also rendered a ridiculuos proportion of the rural populace unemployed because Monasteries always needed lots of servants to make them work.....and yet King Henry VIII is seemingly remembered as one of Britain's greatest Kings because his otherwise horrible policies enabled him to strengthen England's military and set the nation on it's way to imperialism and we all know how that story ends......anyway my point being Stannis will still be a good King in a middle ages setting...he would hardly be the first King to force his subjects to convert to a new religion, and all his other traits are cool...I think he's a good egg! Atleast he doesn't persecute monks....what did monks do to anyone?

[Lady Littlefinger]

I liked Renly for all the reasons mentioned above but I also liked Stannis. As humourless as Stannis was, some of the dry comments he made were funny.

It's a shame they couldn't fight together. Renly could of allowed and supported Stannis to have the iron throne and Renly could of been the hand and allowed Robb to be king in the north like they had many years before. The Lannisters would stand no chance against both armies. That would be my ideal leadership imo. But with the male greed and ego both we all knew it wasn't going to happen.

I liked Robert, he had the balls to do something about the mad king, although the reason was because his ego was bruised and nothing more. He was a drunk yes, he thought women were mere objects yes and he was a brute. Don't ask me why but I still liked him.

[brashcandy]

As an aside, if we want to talk about unearned privilege, the most aggravating thing about Daenerys, and to a lesser extant Jon, is the cosmically ordained role as savior of humanity. It's one thing to be born into a human society which grants you unearned privilege. Societies can change after all. It's quite another to be supernaturally blessed by the laws of nature themselves.

Hmmm, so far I've seen Jon settling down to his duties as LC, trying to make sure that the Wall is protected for winter and that the wildlings are settled and integrated properly. Then we have Dany over in Meereen struggling to stop the violence, save her freedmen and bring prosperity back to the city. The only candidate I see running around talking about having a magic sword and purporting to be Azor Ahai, aka - the cosmically ordained saviour of humanity is..... oh right, Stannis.

[Arkash]

Stannis is definitly the most interesting Baratheon brother there is, for all reasons mentionned above!

[Tini]

Hmmm, so far I've seen Jon settling down to his duties as LC, trying to make sure that the Wall is protected for winter and that the wildlings are settled and integrated properly. Then we have Dany over in Meereen struggling to stop the violence, save her freedmen and bring prosperity back to the city. The only candidate I see running around talking about having a magic sword and purporting to be Azor Ahai, aka - the cosmically ordained saviour of humanity is..... oh right, Stannis.

And did that sword do anything for Stannis? Did the fact that people believe him to be a mystical hero make his life any easier? No. It just added more burden on someone who not only feels entitlement but takes duty and responsibility seriously. Stannis is no worse in that respect than Dany and Jon. He is better than many others.

[LuisDantas]

Stannis is interesting as a character. As a King, he is quite unfit. Renly would be a good choice from what little we saw of him, however.

Having said that, I must say that Stannis has his moments, particularly in his last few ASOS speeches. But the guy lacks character and attempts to substitute with stubborness and excess seriousness. One of these days Davos will feed up with him for good. A true King would have sent Melisandre to the gaolers before ever leaving Dragonstone. Then he would send for negotiations with Renly and Robb.

Robert, quite obviously, did not make a good King. On his defense, let it be said that he acknowledge that and did his best to choose good Hands and stay out of their ways. Also that he did not exactly have lots of choice. What would any of us do in his place?

I am still rooting for Edric Storm as a someday King, personally. We saw precious little of his personality, but he seems to be good King material.