Robert, Renly, or Stannis

[Tini]

And if he had sent Melisandre to the gaolers? People wouldn't have been burned. They might have been tortured, flayed, or drawn and quartered instead, or just left out on the mountain top until they follow the Call of the Blue as that unlucky bard at the Eyrie did. Not because Stannis is a really cruel man, but because this is Westeros, and nobody questions these ancient sort of (mostly capital) punishment.

My vote goes to Stannis. He is a lot better at dealing with debts than either of his brothers. I don't think for a second that Renley would have cut down on his expenses, or would have tried to pay the crown's debts. Stannis may do just that. Robert showed for 15 years that he should never have been made king in the first place.

[Lord Barristan]

1. Stannis

2. Renly

3. Robert

[JKeats]

Hmmm, so far I've seen Jon settling down to his duties as LC, trying to make sure that the Wall is protected for winter and that the wildlings are settled and integrated properly. Then we have Dany over in Meereen struggling to stop the violence, save her freedmen and bring prosperity back to the city. The only candidate I see running around talking about having a magic sword and purporting to be Azor Ahai, aka - the cosmically ordained saviour of humanity is..... oh right, Stannis.

I was speaking metafictionally. We the readers are clearly being steered to think Dany is the real AA while Stannis is a fake. Yet so far the fake AA has invested far more effort into fighting the Others than the real one.

[Tini]

Nothing better for grilling up some nice human steaks - unless of course you're a member of the 99% - then you just get yourself roasted for having the audacity to complain about starving.

They weren't roasted for complaining. They were roasted for doing something about it. Something that was a breach of army discipline because it went against orders these soldiers had been given by their officers. They should have tried deserting instead. They could then have eaten all corpses they found until they were hunted down by the BWB or local lords. They wouldn't have been roasted then, just hanged. Until they were just as dead.

[brashcandy]

I was speaking metafictionally. We the readers are clearly being steered to think Dany is the real AA while Stannis is a fake. Yet so far the fake AA has invested far more effort into fighting the Others than the real one.

It doesn't matter what readers think at the end of the day. And there are simply too many possibilities for AA for us to say with any certainty that it's either Dany or Jon. My point was that right now both of them are not concerned with seeing themselves as heroes, but rather in trying to make lives better at the Wall and in Slaver's Bay. How can Dany be expected to do something about the Others when she doesn't even know they exist, and she isn't on Westerosi soil? Stannis is invested in crowning himself King, period. Helping out at the wall helps him to do this.

[JKeats]

I feel like we're talking past each other here. Let me try again. Also I am going to assume, based on strong textual evidence, that Dany is AA.

Okay so this side discussion started with some talk of unearned privilege. Stannis indisputably enjoys quite a bit of it through the accident of birth. That's a feature of the feudal society the story is set in.

Dany also enjoys some unearned privilege, in that she neither earned nor chose to be Azor Ahai of prophecy. She just is The Chosen One.

Stannis' privilege is an operation of human society, which can change. Dany's privilege is an operation of the ASOIAF universe itself. The laws of nature have appointed her to the role.

Again, speaking metafictionally, Stannis' efforts against the Others are so satisfying precisely because he is not The Chosen One. In a sense, he is resisting not only the Others but also the prophecy itself. I have written before that it would be a grand development is Stannis became AA, not because he was born to it, but because he worked at it.

Final note: if you are suggesting that Stannis views fighting the Others as merely a means to the crown rather than a genuine concern, let me put the question bluntly to the ASOIAF boards. If Stannis had to choose between 1) being King on the one hand, and 2) rescuing the realm from the Others on the, um, other hand, such that these two choices were mutually exclusive, which would he opt for? Are you going with #1 then brashcandy?

[brashcandy]

Again, speaking metafictionally, Stannis' efforts against the Others are so satisfying precisely because he is not The Chosen One. In a sense, he is resisting not only the Others but also the prophecy itself. I have written before that it would be a grand development is Stannis became AA, not because he was born to it, but because he worked at it.

Final note: if you are suggesting that Stannis views fighting the Others as merely a means to the crown rather than a genuine concern, let me put the question bluntly to the ASOIAF boards. If Stannis had to choose between 1) being King on the one hand, and 2) rescuing the realm from the Others on the, um, other hand, such that these two choices were mutually exclusive, which would he opt for? Are you going with #1 then brashcandy?

Ok, jkeats, I'll play in your world for a bit, even though I dispute your natural assumption that Dany is AA. Anyhoo, in terms of whether Stannis would choose kingship or fighting the realm, it's a no-brainer. Any sensible person - barring a maniac like Ramsay Bolton - if they knew the threat of the Others was a real possibility, would choose to help out the realm. Failure to do this would result in there not being an Iron Throne to sit in because all humanity would be wiped out presumably.

Stannis came to the wall, helped Jon defeat the wildlings, and then proceeded to jump right back into the game of thrones. Jon is actually the one whom we've seen consistently trying to prepare for this threat and Stannis instead wants to manipulate him for his own purposes and convince him to take Winterfell and a wife. If there is anyone deserving of becoming AA through their efforts, it is Jon. What Stannis deserves is exactly what he's working so hard for, a really uncomfortable chair from which to spew his self righteous, hypocritical mandates. Gee, I guess you know for sure now that I'm no fan of the man.

[Candor]

It doesn't matter what readers think at the end of the day. And there are simply too many possibilities for AA for us to say with any certainty that it's either Dany or Jon. My point was that right now both of them are not concerned with seeing themselves as heroes, but rather in trying to make lives better at the Wall and in Slaver's Bay. How can Dany be expected to do something about the Others when she doesn't even know they exist, and she isn't on Westerosi soil? Stannis is invested in crowning himself King, period. Helping out at the wall helps him to do this.

I love you my Sandor Sister, but I have to disagree here.

Yes. Stannis wants to be King. If he didn't why all these actions over the courses of the novels? However, this desire/intent, to me, does not wash away the practical value of the fact that he is in the North right now, dealing with the crap that is going on there. He helped the NW defeat the wildlings. Goodness knows if the Others come for an attack he would be there. Currently he's embroiled in battle vs. one of the greatest villains in the series. Sure, this is speaking as the omnipresent reader, but I think there was little doubt that the Boltons have done some bad things, even through the single point of view of someone such as Stannis.

I love Jon, and I think he very might well be AA by birth or by earning it. Jon has showed some impressive maturity and actions of late. I honestly don't think Stannis is AA, but I do think he would make a good king, and I really don't understand the hating on him.

[JKeats]

There are some who are convinced Stannis will end up being the Big Bad of the series, so I had to ask. Word is, Stannis will realize the only way to get the throne is to become the Night's King and march on King's Landing with an army of Others at his back. I wager there are some people on these boards who think this is a likely outcome.

My complaint about saying Stannis is only at the wall as a way to further his political goals is that you can always make any act, by anybody, seem ultimately selfish if you over analyse their motives. Even if his reasons for going were partly selfish, partly dutiful, what's so bad about that? He went, didn't he?

You have a point about Jon earning AA-hood. That wouldn't be so bad I suppose. I am hoping Stannis will realise the truth of the prophecy at some point, but I don't think he will go nuts. He'll probably just carry on doing what he thinks is right, no matter what. If that involves giving up the crown as a necessary precondition of helping the true AA save the realm, I think he'd defy expectations and do that too.

[LuisDantas]

And if he had sent Melisandre to the gaolers? People wouldn't have been burned. They might have been tortured, flayed, or drawn and quartered instead, or just left out on the mountain top until they follow the Call of the Blue as that unlucky bard at the Eyrie did. Not because Stannis is a really cruel man, but because this is Westeros, and nobody questions these ancient sort of (mostly capital) punishment.

If he will not even attempt to avoid cruel punishment (which causes unneeded religious tensions to boot) then I can hardly consider him apt to act as a Monarch. Tyrion, for instance, is not fit to be a monarch either, but he tried a lot harder (as a Hand) than Stannis.

My vote goes to Stannis. He is a lot better at dealing with debts than either of his brothers. I don't think for a second that Renley would have cut down on his expenses, or would have tried to pay the crown's debts. Stannis may do just that. Robert showed for 15 years that he should never have been made king in the first place.

Agreed, although we can only guess about Renly and expenses. He has a stravagant flair, to be sure, but it is a bit hurried to conclude that it would take the better of him if he were in power.

[Frozen Soul]

Okay, A. Aerys had already decided he wants Robert and Ned's heads on platter before either could say or do anything about Lyanna, it was war or lay down and die, Lyanna and Rhaegar had little to do with that And B. when the war started, they definitely had every reason to think she was abducted and getting raped, if only because that's how Brandon's squire, the only one that survived to tell the story brought the news North.

Robert didn't start the war (beyond deciding to not instantly offer his fiancee to Prince Rhaegar when the honourable Prince rode straight past his pregnant wife to name Lyanna his Queen of Love and Beauty), Rhaegar, Brandon and Aerys share that blame. Robert was just the guy that won it, which sucked for everyone.

It's true that Aerys wanted their heads, why? because Brandon showed up practically demanding Rhaegar's head, not the smartest thing to do, remember not all Starks were like Ned and the "wolf's blood" ran a little bit too thick on some like Brandon and Lyanna, that led to his death and that of his father, was it wrong? yes, where they right to want justice? yes. Rhaegar is at fault here too but depending of which theory turns out to be true Lyanna would have also been guilty if it turns out that she went willingly, she was another case of impulsive Stark. If she was kidnapped fine blame it all on Rhaegar.

The incident was an excellent reason to start a rebellion for sure mostly for House Stark, but House Baratheon also got involved since Robert would stick with Ned no matter what, they also wanted his head and because of Lyanna's disapearence.

Whats my problem with the situation? Robert says he loved Lyanna, IMO it was more like "ooh pretty fiance and she's all mine", Lyanna herself knew what would happen with him eventually (She would be in Cersei's position, minus incest and Robert's hate for Lannisters later on) and even Ned himself points out that all Robert could see was her lovely exterior but not the iron underneath or something like that, meaning he didnt even know her at all and yet he claims she was the love of his life bla bla bla. He won, he became King but the crown was not won without sacrifices, he didnt get what he wanted and he strikes me as the kind of guy who doesnt take no for an answer and must always get what he wants, instead he won a kingdom and responsabilities, in a way he lost his freedom and ended up as an unhappy, selfdestructive man, perhaps even feeling a little guilty but (and this is what pisses me off) always using the excuse that all he ever did was for Lyanna (even more so than for Ned's father and brother) and that losing her was the worst thing ever hence the whores, the drinking and everything else, he saw what he wanted to see.

[LuisDantas]

Final note: if you are suggesting that Stannis views fighting the Others as merely a means to the crown rather than a genuine concern, let me put the question bluntly to the ASOIAF boards. If Stannis had to choose between 1) being King on the one hand, and 2) rescuing the realm from the Others on the, um, other hand, such that these two choices were mutually exclusive, which would he opt for? Are you going with #1 then brashcandy?

Actually, I believe that Stannis would choose fighting the Others. If for no other reason, because after learning how dangerous they are he can't very well convince himself that they may be safely ignored until the throne is taken.

That is most certainly a strong point in his favor. But I don't think it is one that distinguishes him from Renly, Robert, or even from Varys or Littlefinger if they found themselves sufficiently aware of the situation. Most any of the powermongers of Westeros would have enough sense to realize that, as Mormont told Jon late in AGOT, it doesn't matter who sits on the Iron Throne if Westeros is scourged by the Others.

For what it is worth, I freely concede that whoever disagrees would make a far worse ruler than Stannis.

[brashcandy]

You have a point about Jon earning AA-hood. That wouldn't be so bad I suppose. I am hoping Stannis will realise the truth of the prophecy at some point, but I don't think he will go nuts. He'll probably just carry on doing what he thinks is right, no matter what. If that involves giving up the crown as a necessary precondition of helping the true AA save the realm, I think he'd defy expectations and do that too.

I don't think he'll go nuts either, and I do hope to see some change in him come TWOW. He would make a good man of the watch actually, maybe even commander. I just think none of the Baratheon brothers should have been kings.

[Queen Cersei I]

For the glamour to work doesn't the person have to believe in it? Rayder passes for Rattleshirt with the aid of the bone clothing and the fact that everyone thinks he is dead. Stannis already knows how gross his wife is, so no amount of glamour in the world is going to convice him she's suddenly a beautiful swan.

Then Mel could just do a glamor on Selyse that made Selyse look like Mel, and the two could do a "bed trick," where Stan thinks he's going to bed with one woman (Mel) but that woman really switches with another at the last minute. Measure for measure, I think it's a good idea. And Stannis is almost surely banging Mel on a daily basis, for no other reason than the fact that he loves it. (Though no doubt he convinces himself it doesn't really count, it's all for duty, etc.)

Seriously, though you mock my protests that Stannis should be less cruel to his wife, I don't see why he couldn't at least be more discreet. If he never wants to touch her, makes a "EW" face every time she comes into the room, and generally makes no effort to hide his utter disgust for her, then fine. But he could at least do a better job of hiding the fact that Mel is his mistress.

And if she really wanted more children she should ambush that stone of a husband.

He has no problem getting hard as a stone for Melisandre, if you catch my drift.

Catch him in the early hours while he's got morning wood and just go down on him. Mustache or no, I doubt Stannis will not turn that down.

I believe you're confusing Stannis with Bill Clinton.

[mediocre cheese]

And if he had sent Melisandre to the gaolers? People wouldn't have been burned. They might have been tortured, flayed, or drawn and quartered instead, or just left out on the mountain top until they follow the Call of the Blue as that unlucky bard at the Eyrie did. Not because Stannis is a really cruel man, but because this is Westeros, and nobody questions these ancient sort of (mostly capital) punishment.

Nobody in the books has been drawn and quartered. Flaying is a practice of one house, a house that is famed for its cruelty. The execution method in westeros, outside of the vale, is beheading, practiced in KL, in the north, in the west ect. Hanging is also used. Both of which are considerably less torturous than burning alive.

Your wrong that nobody questions the practice of burning alive. Ned doesn't even tell catelyn or his children that his dad got burned alive, and when Jaime does tell her she is horrified. No other lord (outside of aerys) uses burning as an execution method. Stannis uses an especially torturous method of execution, a method that he adopted (just as aerys adopted it). It isn't cultural and it certainly isn't considered normal. Like all of his abhorrent actions, (and adopting an especially torturous form of execution is abhorrent) he doesn't do it because he's personally cruel (like gregor or ramsay), but because he is power-hungry and willing to allow others to suffer if it believes it will help him gain power. Melisandre helps him in his goal of temporal power, so he tolerates her burning people alive.

Edit:

To analyze this quote more deeply lets think about it, if stannis wasn't burning people alive, would they have been flayed? Not unless he gave them to ramsay bolton. Would they have been drawn and quartered? No indication that this would happen. Would they have been tortured? Not unless he chooses to torture them. Ned beheads people, lord tywin uses a headsman, illyn payne chops off heads in KL. Yes, some characters use torturous methods of execution, designed to inflict added pain on the victim. But those characters (Aerys, Joffrey, Roose, Ramsay, Gregor, LF ) are universally regarded as cruel. If Ned feels a person deserves capital punishment he beheads them, he neither flays, burns, draws and quarters them, or tortures them at all. Burning people alive is not simply a default execution setting, its one that is (rightly!) regarded as cruel and horrifying. And stannis chooses to adopt it for his own.

[Talleyrand]

As much as I like Stannis I wouldn't put him as my first choice among the Baratheon brothers. he just rubs people the wrong way too many times and there's only so many times you can push someone before they snap. The whole burning of the Septs would cause rebellions and uprisings if he did it all over Westeros. The smallfolk may not seem to do that much religious stuff beyond praying every once in a while but its something that they have ingrained in them since childhood, people tend to get very agrivated when you mess with their religion. Plus the Seven is very hot right now with the reinstating of the orders and the rise of the Sparrows.

[Stannis the Great]

I wonder if Dany gets as much flack as Stannis for choosing to execute Mirri Maz Duur by fire...

[brashcandy]

I wonder if Dany gets as much flack as Stannis for choosing to execute Mirri Maz Duur by fire...

Yes, as a matter of fact she does.

[Awakened Edna]

Looking back at OP, even if we aren't playing the S/M/K game, it seems clear that not one of these guys is of much use to the ladies romantically. Renly, for obvious reasons; Stannis is pretty cold; Robert is just a big drunken frat boy, and even if he's fun to drink and laugh with, I wouldn't want to take him home. I like the early suggestion that the three together would make a good king, but even rolled into one, they wouldn't make a good husband or hetero lover.

[Verboten]

Okay I seriously don't think that the cannibalism thing is a very big deal. Yes Stannis once considered eating the flesh of the dead. Fast forward twenty years and he executes four soldiers for eating the dead. He did not give permission for them to eat their dead and it is obviously considered a sin in Westeros, therefore they get roasted for comitting a crime without the express consent of their superiors. That's all there is to it.