Robert, Renly, or Stannis

[The King in the South]

I can only say that your perception of combat ethics and motivation is quite alien to me.

What? All I'm saying is theres nothing noble about fighting eachother to the death (via a duel). The Noble thing would have been to not have fought at all.

[Candor]

I don’t really care about what the fandom thinks of him, but I feel incredibly sorry for him due to the way nobody really likes him in Westeros (with a few exceptions.) Stannis seems like even more of an alienated cipher than does Tyrion. Tyrion at least has one brother who unconditionally adores, champions, and understands him. Furthermore, Tyrion has a sense of humor about his situation, and is able to accept himself, that he will never be the tall, handsome, popular type. Not so Stannis. Nobody likes him, nobody ever really has, and he’s never really gotten over it.

IMO, Mel doesn’t truly love or respect him; she loves and worships the savior image of her god that she has projected onto him. Mel loves R’hloor first and foremost, and when she discovers that Stannis is not her god’s chosen one (but that the chosen one’s are Dany and Jon Snow), she will not stick around for long. Mel cares for Stannis, but her first priority is saving the world, and (she believes) she needs Azor Azai to accomplish this. She doesn’t really need a balding, middle aged man with emotional issues.

IMO, in the next book, after Jon is brought back, Mel will realize that he is Azor Azai reborn, and being a sexual affair with him. (Perhaps after being almost murdered by his own men—not unlike Mormont—Jon Snow will rethink his staunch system of morality, and be willing to engage in some shadow baby assassination assistance. Hey, GRRM did say Jon would become more morally ambiguous in the future. This is where Mel—and the shadow baby sex—will come in.) When it turns out Stannis is (obviously) still alive, Mel will opt to remain with Jon Snow. IMO, Stannis will be furious and have a bit of a mental breakdown after losing his greatest ally, supporter, advisor, and lover, and, imo, there will be a huge element of sexual jealousy involved, since clearly their sexual relationship is a big component of the Mel/ Stannis thing, though Stannis would never, ever admit this to himself. When Stannis see’s he’s lost it all, he may become very dangerous and very desperate indeed.

Arguable. Stannis was undeniably unlucky—he was born just a year after his all- star brother, who so notably excelled at everything—fighting, getting girls, charming others—that Stannis sucked at. He was born with a rather awkward, shy, uptight and suspicious nature, which was worsened by constant competition with his ridiculously successful and wildly popular brother, and the loss of the only two people there to love him wholly and unconditionally—his parents—at a very young age.

But as an adult he has, to a certain degree, arguably merely reaped what he has sewn. He has never let go of a slight or a grievance, alienating those who could advance him. He has never stopped feeling persecuted, which make interpersonal relationships (with the other nobles, with the smallfolk, etc.) very strained and difficult, again a damper on possible allies. He has channeled his sense of grievance into ambition. He has ignored his wife (which you, and few others clearly blame him for, since she is “gross,”) but far more inexcusably, near ignored his daughter. He has committed numerous morally ambiguous, sometimes downright hypocritical acts in the name of his cause. These acts, according to Stannis’s own stated code of justice (“a good act does not cancel out a bad one”) are therefore not canceled out by Stannis’s undeniably righteous acts (going to the wall, recognizing the threat posed by the others, etc.)

Overall, I see Stannis as poised for a gigantic fall, during which he will become one of the major “big bads” of the series. IMO, he’s no worse or better (arguably) than Dany yet, but he shows the potential to commit heinous acts that she has not. I would bet my life at this point that Stannis is going to end up, once abandoned by Melisandre for the two true sides of Azor Azai—Dany and Jon—and hearing of the threat of Dany and her coming Dragons, and being encouraged by his conveniently one dimensional caricature of a wife, will do the unthinkable and burn his own daughter to wake the stone dragon.

To paraphrase Jon Snow in ADWD, I’m not sure it’s in Stannis to be happy. The closest we’ve ever seen him is in the scene where, shortly after his brother was murdered, he brings all of the bannermen with him to Storms End and talks to Davos. This is when: a. He has just shortly finished shagging Melisandre repeatedly for the first time, and b. when he thinks he’s defeated all competition (with his brother) and the crown is very likely his.

So maybe Stannis could have some chance of happiness if he won the Iron throne for his own, and had the lovely Mel by his side (and in his bed.) However, I can’t see that happening.

Utter and complete power, and the love, worship, and undying devotion of a slim, nubile, gorgeous young woman (who also is willing to sleep with them whenever they want, and is probably supernaturally skilled in the bedroom.) Is that so much to ask for?

Great post, your Grace !

I think that it's possible he'll go the big bad route, but you know, I just feel there's also an equal chance Stannis will surprise many people, and when he, the iron "breaks", it's to begin a new, better than before. I would love to see him take a little more charge with his daughter, and if Selyse ever did suggest burning Shireen, I hope Stannis says "Bugger off!" or something of that ilk.

I can see Stannis going down a dark spiral and ending up dead.

I can see him breaking and then working back up to die heroically.

And I can see him coming into his prime and being the man he always could have been.

I think it would take a lot for Stannis to be happy, but it's not impossible. For him, I think it would be:

---To have a closer relationship with his child

---Perhaps to divorce his wife, and maybe remarry a sensible, strong woman. Younger and pretty, sure, but I don't blame him for that, humans can be vain, it's not the end of the world...

---To have a good position in life of authority, but one where he doesn't feel the whole weight of the world on his shoulders, or need to be "The Savior". I think going into this whole AA business has given him a lot of stress he didn't bargin for.

---To work beside his one true friend, Davos

---To be loved and not scorned. For others to acknowledge when he does the right thing.

Sur Jon & Mel possibilities, I'm not excited for it at all, but I certainly see it coming to this.

[puenboy]

As Cersei said, Robert doesn't care about anything he can't drink, fight or fuck. Renly is certainly clever and charismatic, but we didn't see enough of him to make judgement since he was killed by Stannis and Mel. Stannis is the dutiful one, but he'd just be a more powerful Randyll Tarly without his advisors.

[LuisDantas]

What? All I'm saying is theres nothing noble about fighting eachother to the death (via a duel). The Noble thing would have been to not have fought at all.

Point taken.

Still, feudal societies didn't often have that choice in a practical sense. There was no mentality of keeping population levels tolerable, and disease and war were the socially acceptable options for deciding who would live and who would not. There was, far as I understand it, a mentality that God would favor his own by actually allowing them to survive when there was a real risk that they would not.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Stannis, but, as I said in another threads, he needs more people around like Davos and Jon that give him good advice, and get rid of another people like Melisandre and his wife :D Shireen can stay, she's cute ^_^

[zalim]

Stannis is the best of all 3 baratheon brothers.

[Aegnor]

I think Renly would have made a great peace time King. Robert would make a great king during war time.

[Kate Poem]

Yes, of course. Smallfolk would be very happy with constant tourneys, feasts, pretty clothed (two changes or more for one day), smiling King and Queen and - probably - little beautiful princess and very handsome prince.

I am sure of that. Renly was loved, but...

Small Council must be competent, hard working, un-corrupted, has KIng's trust, his Hand must be loyal, wise and uncorrupted... etc. etc.

If not?

Catastrophe.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I like Robert, I guess, maybe lol. He seems like someone who you would follow into battle, or follow into a bar lol. Renly I never really cared for, its just like Stannis' Maester said "he plays dress up" "look at me! Im a king!" Now Stannis... So cool! But he has too much need of assistance, Davos, Jon, Mel. Excpet now it looks like Stannis is fucked regardless and Davos is chillin with baby stark, and Jon and Mel are chilling together. (anyone seen how Stannis fucked up the Karstarks!)

[HyacinthGirl]

Personality-wise: Renly was a nice guy. I liked him laughing at Joff. He was nice to Brienne and he was popular for a reason.

As a leader: Stannis. I used to dislike him because he's a bit of a hypocrite, and I wish he'd listen to Davos more. I also don't get why he didn't like Ned. But he's a just man and pretty sensible.

I think Robert gets bashed a bit too much, because he sucked as a king in his later years, but Ned loved him for a reason.

[Lord Warhammer]

Robert Baratheon because he would buy all the drinks, be good to have around in a tight spot, and apparently he was a chic magnet.

[Batman]

The perfect Baratheon would have Robert's military prowess, Stannis' sense of responsibility and Renly's charisma.

Renly had Roberts charisma. All Renly has to add his fashion sense.

[Batman]

Robert would have been a great lord of Storms End and the Stormlands. Rhaegar couldnt keep it in his goddamn pants!

[Porcelain Steel]

Between Stannis and Renly, I think Renly is much more likeable and I enjoyed reading about him.... but Stannis is the better man. The power grab of Renly wanting to be king in the first place never really sat right with me Stannis really won me over when he gave aid to the wall, and I appreciate his relationship with Davos. That being said, I think it's debatable who would make the better king. A leader does need a certain amount of charisma...the best leaders are able to inspire and win the devotion of the people they lead-an open mind and an ability to compromise aren't bad things to have, either. I think in peace time I would say Renly, in war time (and with the winter coming) I would choose Stannis.

What's interesting about Robert is that, to me, by the time GOT takes place, he's really out of the running, because he's just a ghost of his former self. If given the choice between Stannis, Renly, and Robert in the early years, I would probably choose Robert. He had both charm and some substance. He was, as Donal Noye said, "The true steel".

[TyranosauRoss]

Stannis has been growing on me a lot lately so i'll go with him. He's been slighted so many times with Robert screwing in his wedding bed, losing Storm's End to Renly, and being given Dragonstone. Not to mention he's a proven character when it comes to battle as he demonstrated in the Siege of Storm's End, and the Greyjoy Rebellion. Oh, and he was smart enough to piece together the truth about Cersei's bastards and brought it to the attention of Jon Arryn. I know he's not the most likable, but you must admit he has done some impressive things.

[decrepid dragon]

Stannis.

In the words of the caption to a random picture I once saw - "Stannis, more alive than your favourite character."

[AvengerofWinterfell]

The perfect Baratheon would have Robert's military prowess, Stannis' sense of responsibility and Renly's charisma.

I agree, Renly wouldve made the best leader, Robert was the best Warrior & Stannis the most loyal & responsible.

[RedBean]

I guess I'll go with Renly. He seemed somewhat astute politically, and could be very funny at times, even if I didn't always agree with his decisions.

[ab aeterno]

It has to be Stannis. He gets the nod over Robert for being more responsible and being less decadent. He gets the nod over Renly for being generally competent.

[Stannis ftw]

Personality-wise: Renly was a nice guy. I liked him laughing at Joff. He was nice to Brienne and he was popular for a reason.

As a leader: Stannis. I used to dislike him because he's a bit of a hypocrite, and I wish he'd listen to Davos more. I also don't get why he didn't like Ned. But he's a just man and pretty sensible.

I think Robert gets bashed a bit too much, because he sucked as a king in his later years, but Ned loved him for a reason.

The thing is, Westeros is not a 21th century democracy. Being liked, being charismatic, people loving you, is a nice bonus, but you dont go to polls to measure your popularity every few years. So being the grumpy cold guy in the tower is just o.k. as long as you get shit done.

Soooo... Stannis ftw! Easy choice.

Robert´s heroicism is, at the time of Mad King, standing up and deciding, somebody´s got to do it. And doing it. This is not a task for the frat boys. Too bad the same process that goes into toppling the evil umpire (Aerys), as a side-product, makes you a ruler, with absolute powers, for life.

The fact is not many of the ultimate warhammer-wielding berserks make a great governor of a whole continent. Thats a pretty complex job. But that would have been ok as long as he could have surrounded himself with good people. Good people in key executive positions, and Robert drinking and whoring as a figurehead, thats still ok.

But, you only need to look at Roberts small council and other inner core ppl in AGOT --- he wasnt good at choosing his associates.

I think Roberts main problem is easy to identify - bottle. His grief for Lyanna fits to this - many people face huge tragedies and are over to function beyond that, but drunkard loves his grief and preserves it like a treasure.