Robert, Renly, or Stannis

[Golden&Crimson]

Yeah who gets to be ruler shouldn't be a popularity contest. What sort of insane system is it where the most popular figure is chosen to be leader? No sensible country would award its leadership positions via an election popularity contest. Clearly the likability of an individual and how many people desire him to ruler should have no basis in deciding things. Consent of the governed? That's crazy talk.

Westeros is a land, ruled by a feudal monarchy.

Neither Robert, Stannis or Renly thought about "what would the common people want?".

To them, the key to power is to have the suport of 5%-10% of the population: percentage similar to the nobles in some european feudal monarchies.

The diference between them is that Stannis cares with the kingdom: his safety, the rule of the law and, very important, isn`t a snob, because he can give power and honors to soemone of a low birth - Lord Davos Seaworth. - that proves loyal and competent.

So: Stannis wants the better for Westeros (for all his people) and is a tireless worker, Robert wanted women, beer and laugh with his friends in big feasts and tournements and Renly always saw the game of thrones like a big party (tournements, flashy armors and a great number of people smiling around him) and, generally, a frivolous person.

What feudal king you would like to have has your suseran?

I would choose Stannis.

[Damar]

Stannis. His brothers are hedonistic pricks for whom being king means doing whatever you want, instead of actually ruling, especially Renly who when everyone was fighting and dying..sat around and did a tourney. He'd propably have waited out the entire war if not for Storm's End.

[Orlov]

Stannis. His brothers are hedonistic pricks for whom being king means doing whatever you want, instead of actually ruling, especially Renly who when everyone was fighting and dying..sat around and did a tourney. He'd propably have waited out the entire war if not for Storm's End.

[Tini]

I don't think that Robert really wanted to become king. He was pushed into it by his allies, like Ned Stark (who didn't want to become Lord Of Winterfell, let alone sit the Iron Throne) and Jon Arryn who raised them both. I think Robert blamed his allies for the fact that he is king.

Renly only saw the flashier aspects of kingship. What was it Jaime Lannister thought to himself when Loras said that Renly was the best king? "The best dressed maybe." Renly was all about appearance. He knew how to command the admiration of people. He was probably capable of leading hosts and winning battles as well, but I think he was too self-centered to make a better king than Robert (who was really bad).

Out of the Baratheon brothers, that only leaves Stannis. Stannis is not charismatic, not a born leader. But he has an iron will, and dedication to do what is right (even if he is on the wrong track). He won't choose his course of action just because it is easier. Not even if pushed by advisors. Robert did much of what the Lannister in-laws wanted just to get them off his back. Stannis will listen to his wife and her relatvies, but he would never do what they wanted just because he found their insistence irritating. And while he listens to Melisandre, and takes what she offers, he also listens to people who don't care for Melisandre and R'hllor. People like Davos Seaworth, a commoner he raised to King's Hand for his merits, and even Jon Snow.

His single-minded dedication makes him better suited to play the game of thrones than people whose attention drifts. Still, Westeros as a whole is more important to him than playing games. Which is the reason why some people (like Tywin Lannister) consider him a danger, while most (even Littlefinger) don't even realize he is a player.

[mediocre cheese]

Westeros is a land, ruled by a feudal monarchy.

Neither Robert, Stannis or Renly thought about "what would the common people want?".

To them, the key to power is to have the suport of 5%-10% of the population: percentage similar to the nobles in some european feudal monarchies.

The diference between them is that Stannis cares with the kingdom: his safety, the rule of the law and, very important, isn`t a snob, because he can give power and honors to soemone of a low birth - Lord Davos Seaworth. - that proves loyal and competent.

So: Stannis wants the better for Westeros (for all his people) and is a tireless worker, Robert wanted women, beer and laugh with his friends in big feasts and tournements and Renly always saw the game of thrones like a big party (tournements, flashy armors and a great number of people smiling around him) and, generally, a frivolous person.

What feudal king you would like to have has your suseran?

I would choose Stannis.

I've already expressed my opinion on Stannis, so I won't go into it again, but I'll just say that someone who burns weirdwoods and then demands followers of the old gods obey him is someone I would never want. Its like someone who burns mosques and then demands Muslims follow him into battle. I have a strong aversion to those who destroy places of worship of other people.

My point is not that its wrong to prefer Stannis, feel free, my point is the idea that "who gets to be king shouldn't be a popularity contest" is wrong. Yes, westeros is feudal monarchy, but that doesn't mean that's an ideal system. I think most people would say democracy, where rulers are decided by popularity contests is a better system of government than dynastic monarchy. Ideally who gets to be king should be a popularity contest, just like in the real world who gets to be president or prime minister is a popularity contest.

And overwhelmingly the people seem to not want stannis to be king, even the stormlords who ancestrally owe him loyalty prefer his brother to him.

Renly who when everyone was fighting and dying..sat around and did a tourney. He'd propably have waited out the entire war if not for Storm's End.

By everyone, you mean rival armies? I don't see whats bad about sitting out a war. (war is organized murder). Consolidating your forces and entertaining your subjects while your enemies batter each others forces is strategically sound. Tyrion says he would do the exact same thing as Renly if he was in Renly's position.

[Golden&Crimson]

And overwhelmingly the people seem to not want stannis to be king, even the stormlords who ancestrally owe him loyalty prefer his brother to him.

If you refer to the noble houses of the Reach and Stormlands (1-2% of the populution of the Kingdom), that follow the kind of king that would make big parties and his kingdom will be theme for songs of chivalry, tournements and love between lords and ladies, sers and maidens, while giving them more power (while Stannis seem, to me a king, that would make the transition between a feudal monarchy to a modern age monarchy - similar to XIV-XV century europe - with more power to the central government and less abuse from the nobles over the common people) but in what the real problems of life, the real needs and problems of the +90% of the population (commoners) and Westeros,would be see has "not the theme for songs", you are right, the majority of the noble houses of the Reach and Stormlands are the people that would vote for Renly.

If you find that "democratic" our proof of the suport of people for Renly cause fine, but is far from that.

[mediocre cheese]

Again I'm not saying Renly would win an election popularity contest. I'm saying that is how it should be decided ideally. You said being king shouldn't be a popularity contest, I think it should.

And we know that Renly was loved by the common people, while Stannis wasn't.

[When Lord Renly climbed to his feet, the commons cheered wildly, for King Robert’s handsome young brother was a great favorite.]

[“What do the smallfolk say of Renly’s death? “

“They grieve. Your brother was well loved.”]

[Your people will not love you if you take from them the gods they have always worshiped, and give them one whose very name sounds queer on their tongues.”

They will not love me, you say? When have they ever loved me? How can I lose something I have never owned?”]

[Golden&Crimson]

Again I'm not saying Renly would win an election popularity contest. I'm saying that is how it should be decided ideally. You said being king shouldn't be a popularity contest, I think it should.

And we know that Renly was loved by the common people, while Stannis wasn't.

[When Lord Renly climbed to his feet, the commons cheered wildly, for King Robert’s handsome young brother was a great favorite.]

[“What do the smallfolk say of Renly’s death? “

“They grieve. Your brother was well loved.”]

[Your people will not love you if you take from them the gods they have always worshiped, and give them one whose very name sounds queer on their tongues.”

They will not love me, you say? When have they ever loved me? How can I lose something I have never owned?”]

You are correct friend.

The problem is that the actions of Stannis show a real concern for the Seven Kingdoms, while the actions of Renly show a real concern by himself.

A pity westerosians (like real people) tend to prefer sleazy and smiling politicians, instead of honest and hard-workers politicians.

[Tini]

I think it makes a difference if you (want to) become king during normal times, or during times of great crisis (age of heroes). The old Stark kings probably wouldn't have won any popularity contests either. When Robert died, times were still quite normal, and people went for the charismatic leaders. When winter sets in, and those leaders fail to provide for their hungry poor population, people will no longer cheer for them. They will cheer for Littlefinger if he feeds them - but I don't think that Littlefinger and the Vale have food to spare for people outside the Vale. Who else still has enough food in their stores? Or waste it on smallfolk?

Jon acts by buying food using loans from the Iron Bank. What Stannis will or can do is not clear yet.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I would choose Stannis for my King but only if Melisandre :devil: is out of the picture. Davos is a gentle and understanding person and would make a nice Hand for him. Davos has the warmth that Stannis lacks and Stannis has the cold detachment that Davos lacks. They'd be a good duo.

[dtones520]

Robert before he became King.

[Queen Cersei I]


Robert is awesome! He's a debaucherous drunk who loves to bash things with a hammer all the while a hopeless romantic.

Renly is a fool...sure he's got charisma but not much else. 


I think Renly was more than just that. Though he may not have been the deepest soul in the world, I think that he had more common sense—and a more realistic worldview—than either of his brothers. I think he had grown up watching both of them, and learned from their mistakes.

For instance, Robert overindulges in everything (food, wine, women.) Stannis is utterly repressed, won’t drink or screw, and actually attempts to prevent others from doing the latter, since he won’t allow himself to do so (and kind of makes a fool of himself in the process. No brothels, Stannis? Really?) Meanwhile, Renly seems to be able to achieve balance in taking his pleasures. He enjoys sex, but is in a committed relationship. He does not let his sexual desires control him, or act wildly inappropriate in chasing his lusts. (Nor does he repress himself to the point that he becomes an object of ridicule, like Stannis.) He likes wine and a good meal, but, as Cat notices, he knows when to stop.

There’s also the political game. Where both Robert and Stannis have not really played the game (to both of their detriments) Renly has, cultivating alliances with people like the Tyrells, who might protect him against his enemies (the Lannisters.) And unlike the relatively obtuse Stannis and Robert, Renly can clearly see that the Lannisters, whatever they may say, clearly are his enemies. (Stannis does not realize this until he learns about the incest; and Robert never learns of it at all. However, we know as of AFFC that Cersei was orignially planning on waiting to off Robert until she could “deal with his troublesome brothers” first.) The Lannisters were a direct threat to both Stannis and Renly (and then Robert), but unfortunately Stannis could not see this until it was too late.

Finally, Renly knew the importance of actually cultivating the love and support of those around him. Robert’s legendary charisma had been mentioned several times already here. However, the issue with Robert is that he wanted (and pretty much expected) to be loved. The affection he got from the common people and his soldiers back in the day was largely on account of what he was, not what he did for them. Unlike, say, Margary Tyrell who goes out and actively courts the people (interacting with them and giving support to dressmakers, etc.) Robert didn’t do much, even at the peak of his popularity. He was incredibly handsome, strong, friendly, unpretentious, and a badass fighter—and people loved him for that. But he never had to put forth much effort, never had to work to get people to love him. (And never realized that someday, when he lost his legendary good looks and fighting prowess, that he might have to work to earn peoples love.)

That’s why when we see him, 15 years after, he’s largely alone—his physical charm has fled, and he hasn’t quite figured out that he has to make an effort now, that he’s not the man he was. (Well, okay, he sort of realizes the latter—“to fat for my armour, etc.,” but there are numerous signs he does not comprehend the affect this will have on his public image.) He still expects love, but doesn’t realize he has to work for it. (For instance, when he’s with Ned in the winterfell crypts, he asks where the people are. He just expects them to come out in the freezing cold to see him.) That’s why in the end, he’s largely alone—as Varys points out to Ned, near the end, Ned really Robert’s only friend, the only one who loves him. It’s unlikely Renly, who knows how to cultivate friendship with those in powerful places, would have found himself in such a position.

As for Stannis, he’s grown up watching Robert and feeling hard done by, which has done permanent damage. He seems to feel that people not liking him is a curse, and that there’s nothing he can do about it. Seeing the love just given to Robert, Stannis assumes that love and loyalty are things automatically given to some men (on account of their personal charisma) and denied to men like him. He does not see that he could get far more loyalty and love from those around him if he would only make the attempt to cultivate it, and perhaps humble himself, just a bit.

So, while Renly was hardly "a great man," I think it's also inaccurate to dismiss him as a frivolous fool, as you and a few others here have done. Personally, I think he may have had the makings of a good leader, though it's hard to tell for sure. (Compared to Robert and Stannis, we actually learn comparatively little about Renly.)

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

I think I like Renly the best if I were to choose who I want to be friends with among the three Baratheon brothers. It's just that he's easy-going and he's fun and at the same time I do believe he knows his priorities and doesn't neglect them, not the way Robert did when he became king, got fat, and whored instead of ruled the kingdom. Oh, I've always liked Renly.

[Kate Poem]

Maybe I could be friend of Renly Baratheon, but I could'nt now, because he was traitor.

I could forget about Seven Kingdoms, but I can't forget about that fact: he did'nt think about his older brother. He had his propositions about place in Small Council and being Heir of the Crown very deep in his traitorous backside. He has Stannis's rights, feelings etc. in the same place.

I suppose after Stannis;s death in the battle with RENLY's army Renly could forget about him in one week.

Stannis will be remember Renly's peach all his life.

[Queen Cersei I]



2. Robert should'nt to be king. He should'nt marry that... that... wench. She was unhappy with him, he was pathetic and unhappy with her. He could to be happier as "free knight".


Oh, come on. How much can a woman change a man? IMO, the Robert we saw was very similar to the same one we would have seen had he married Lyanna or any other girl. Perhaps he may have been somewhat happier and a trifle less self deluded, but really, the Robert of AGOT is really only the logical progression of the way Robert has been all of his life. Even Ned Stark thinks this when he first sees Robert at Winterfell—that Robert had always loved to take his pleasures, but now his pleasures have apparently caught up with him.

The problem with Robert was that he could never face the truth about himself and his own motives. Robert never grew up. He went from an rather immature 20 year old boy to a ridiculously immature 35 year old man. When Ned first sees Robert at Winterfell at the beginning of AGOT, Ned thinks with distress how he’s changed. But the problem is that, mentally and emotionally, he hasn’t. He’s still living only for himself, still thinking only of his own pleasures, still making messes and neglecting to clean them up. (He has other people to do that for him, after all.)

Imo, all that cannot be blamed on Cersei. How much blame can one’s spouse, no matter how evil, take for said person’s inability to grow up, mature, and take any sort of responsibility? Robert could never face the truth about himself or his own motives, anymore than he could sacrifice his own pleasure the sake of another human being. Cersei herself had the right of it, “Robert Baratheon was a coward at bottom.”

In a way, the evil (and demonized) Cersei is better than Robert "basically a good guy in a lot of ways" Baratheon. She would sacrifice hereself (we are given many indications) for her children. Robert would not have sacrificed his own pleasures and comforts for anyone.


Robert is awesome! He's a debaucherous drunk who loves to bash things with a hammer all the while a hopeless romantic.




I question the “hopeless romantic” part. Sure, he says he “loves” Lyanna. He also, according to Ned Stark, his greatest friend and defender, pretty much says the same thing to every tavern wench, widow, and whore he sleeps with. And then leaves them the next morning.

I think the place of importance Lyanna received in Robert’s life was due to his unhappiness, his inability to let go of the past and stop living in the glory days, and his cowardice. Rather than face things head on with his current wife, and try to deal realistically with the situation, he retreats into the past, into an idealized love of a past girlfriend. A girl whom, by the way, he supposedly went to war for, but could not be faithful to even as (he claims) he believes she was being raped repeatedly. A girl whom, in the flashback scene of the Harrenhal tourney, he showed no signs whatsoever of even attempting to interact with. Honestly, I’ve wondered more than once if Robert’s epic “love” for Lyanna only began after she was “kidnapped,” or even after her death.

IMO, Lyanna was not the love of Robert’s life, simply the one that got away, and, as a result, received a starring role in Robert’s fantasy life. (It was not real love, but escapism that led Robert to dream about the days gone by and what might have been with his beloved Lyanna.)

[Old Man Aegon]

Lord Robert.

A guy who loved parties, alcohol and a good bashing.

A Giant with his armor and strong as hell and powerful with his warhammer.

King Robert is a drunken fatman who cant even use his armor anymore.

[David Selig]

I think too many are underestimating Renly a lot. He was no fool and unlike Robert attended the meetings of the small council and didn't seem bored by having to deal with the less glamorous aspects of being a King. And he had no reason to rush towards KL with his armies - better to let Robb and Tywin exhaust each other and the KL population get really hungry and ready to rebel and open the doors for him. He showed himself to be a capable politician by winning the support of the Tyrells and had enough good sense to offer Ned to seize the royal chidren and to leave KL after he was refused.

Donal Noye last saw Renly when Renly was 7-8 years old, so his comments about him are pretty much meaningless.

[Erinne]

A person with Renly's charisma and Stannis's determination would make a great king. Robert's pretty much useless though :P.

[Damar]

A person with Renly's charisma and Stannis's determination would make a great king. Robert's pretty much useless though :P.

The ability to cave someone's head in with a big warhammer would be a trait well-respected.

[Erinne]

The ability to cave someone's head in with a big warhammer would be a trait well-respected.

True, but more useful for a soldier than a king.