Jojen Reed's fate? (ADWD Spoilers)

[The Great Cornholio!]

I think that they were given food by the COTF. Anyway, they've been stuck in that cave for about 3 months (correct me if I'm wrong) so they had to eat.

How do you guess 3 months?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

How do you guess 3 months?

I believe there was some indication based on the descriptions of the moon, which can be used to get a lower estimate on the time spent. (Don't remember whether it was exactly three months, but it seems plausible.)

On the general guest right topic, I was under the impression that the protection of guest right was very specifically triggered by bread and salt (which Catelyn very pointedly asks from Frey, and gets), not by any kind of food (please correct me if I'm wrong) and could be ended by having the guest leave and give him a present, leaving him no protection against being hunted down directly afterwards.

Of course, First Men customs don't have to be those of the CotF in any case and the potential sacrifice would not necessarily have been against Jojen's will, but it seems to me that if the children wanted to avoid the guest right problem, they could have easily done so.

[Ciazio]

I believe there was some indication based on the descriptions of the moon, which can be used to get a lower estimate on the time spent. (Don't remember whether it was exactly three months, but it seems plausible.)

This. I need to check if you want a correct estimate.

[The Great Cornholio!]

Dont get me wrong. I wouldnt be surprised.

[DaveRoid]

Jojen is JojenPaste, almost no doubt about it. The reason he died off screen is because he is a minor character. Also he probebly had the green dream about his fate after he reached the cave, which is why he is so depressed in there.

[The Great Cornholio!]

Jojen is JojenPaste, almost no doubt about it. The reason he died off screen is because he is a minor character. Also he probebly had the green dream about his fate after he reached the cave, which is why he is so depressed in there.

Again, Jojen is seen wandering caves in a scene after Bran eats the paste. Is it hard to believe weirwood trees have creepy blood sap?

[Empire]

I left the chapter feeling really, really bad. There were a lot of intentional reference to sacrifice, blood, and hopelessness.

Jojen is dead and dinner. Feeding him to Bran is a very twisted communion. He knew he was going to die and made willing sacrifice of himself, like the man in front of the weirwood.

Or not. Up to the author now. In my gut, I suspect there is something very, very evil going on.

[ab aeterno]

While I'm not sold on the answer to this question either way- both sides of the argument are quite convincing- I agree with the general sentiment that something is not quite kosher here. Having said that, surely I'm not the only one who would be fascinated to see how Benioff and Weiss would deal with Bran being fed Jojen Paste on the HBO show? I mean, they're going to have kids killing people, sure, and they've had kids getting killed and crippled, but can you actually have a TV show where a kid gets killed and fed to another kid? That would be really interesting IMO...

Edit: Really interesting to see how they filmed/approached it, not interesting to have a kid fed to another kid. Just so we're clear! :D

[Empire]

Bet they will minimize Meera and Jojen. Hodor and Summer can tie up some loose ends, but Jojen and Meera can just disappear after a freaky chapter and leave people guessing.

Make season blah episode blub the only one Jojen doesn't say "today is not the day I die" and let the viewers figure out what happened.

[Lordothelight]

1. When is there any proof if once you feed someone in your house the gods get angry with you? Sounds more like a common curtesy made by men to me and they added the god part to scare people.

2. To people referring to what Bran ate as "Jojen paste"....really? Come on. Obviously if it's anything it actually is weirwood nut paste with the red streaks just being Jojens blood. Blood is what seems to be the truly powerful part of all the sacrifices in the books. And for people saying it was sap, could be wrong but most nuts I've seen don't have sap in them.

3. Why do you think someone would need to be more powerful than Bran for his blood to unlock hidden abilities? If anything the fact Bran doesn't have green dreams would make the whole situation more plausible that he needed the blood of someone who has them to unlock his abilities.

4. Why does everyone who doesn't agree with this theory talk in such absolute certainty that Jojen and Meera have more left to do. Seems to me they did exactly what they set out to do, get a cripple across the wall and through the forest. Bran would be stupid to leave after coming so far and would be abandoning the Old Gods if he left.

5. You can't dent Jojens fear runs so deep that if it's something other than death he's kinda a wuss. After everything he's seen what could scare him anymore but death?

6. I don't get why people like Jojen and Meera so much to begin with, they're both very boring characters at this point. Jojen even said Brans not the one to be afraid, so I don't get why people think the TEC is probably evil and that they're going to make a run for it. Even if they left cause he's evil, you really think theyre going to get anywhere with The TEC having an army of wights and CotF (which I don't believe for a second just to be clear)

[Damon_Tor]

The Reeds weren't real. They're parts of Brans subconcious he conjured up to guide him.

[ab aeterno]

1. When is there any proof if once you feed someone in your house the gods get angry with you? Sounds more like a common curtesy made by men to me and they added the god part to scare people.

2. To people referring to what Bran ate as "Jojen paste"....really? Come on. Obviously if it's anything it actually is weirwood nut paste with the red streaks just being Jojens blood. Blood is what seems to be the truly powerful part of all the sacrifices in the books. And for people saying it was sap, could be wrong but most nuts I've seen don't have sap in them.

3. Why do you think someone would need to be more powerful than Bran for his blood to unlock hidden abilities? If anything the fact Bran doesn't have green dreams would make the whole situation more plausible that he needed the blood of someone who has them to unlock his abilities.

4. Why does everyone who doesn't agree with this theory talk in such absolute certainty that Jojen and Meera have more left to do. Seems to me they did exactly what they set out to do, get a cripple across the wall and through the forest. Bran would be stupid to leave after coming so far and would be abandoning the Old Gods if he left.

5. You can't dent Jojens fear runs so deep that if it's something other than death he's kinda a wuss. After everything he's seen what could scare him anymore but death?

6. I don't get why people like Jojen and Meera so much to begin with, they're both very boring characters at this point. Jojen even said Brans not the one to be afraid, so I don't get why people think the TEC is probably evil and that they're going to make a run for it. Even if they left cause he's evil, you really think theyre going to get anywhere with The TEC having an army of wights and CotF (which I don't believe for a second just to be clear)

Respectfully,

1) I believe they say that the guest right is sacred to the Old Gods and the new gods and that it was originally a custom of the First Men, who worshipped the Old Gods the same as the CoTF.

2) Simply because "Jojen Paste" is a lot quicker and easier to type than "Weirwood paste with Jojen's blood in it," or even "Weirwood Paste."

3) Largely because they feel that it would be unnecessary, though personally, I largely agree with you, he wouldn't need to be more powerful.

4) Because this is a forum on the internet asking for peoples' opinions, and everyone on the internet is certain about everything that they believe. That, and they believe that the evidence fully supports their posision, so if you disagree, show them evidence to prove that they're wrong.

5) A good point. Something worse than death? The death of people he cares about? The Others? Who knows.

6) I think people like Jojen and Meera because they're (we think) genuinely nice characters, have interesting personalities, are mysterious and linked to Howland Reed, who everyone is interested in finding more out about, and have an interesting role to play regarding Bran. It's quite impressive that they managed to get as far as they did, as kids with another (crippled kid) in tow, don't you think? As for now that they're in the cave, they seem to know more about the CoTF/Greenseers, the Old Gods than the reader does, so they're interesting because they're sources of information about an interesting matter. With regards to the 3EC, people think that it would be too easy for GRRM to have Bran linked up with the "good guys," and stay there permanently. Most peple think that there must be a catch, and there is a lot of tension in the latter Bran chapters, as well as many mentions of blood and blades and suggestions of sacrifice. Most people don't necessarily think that he's evil, just not all pure and good.

[Shadoom]

I got bored and made a flow chart of the things that could happen to Bran, Jojen, Meera, and Hodor.

http://i.imgur.com/vWW3a.png

Just going by the chains of events that could lead to each resolution, I think the most likely outcome is that everyone else dies, and Bran becomes a miserable tree-person. Jojen-paste seems fairly plausible.

As for it being off-screen, maybe we'll have him or Meera narrating the WoW prologue to show what happened?

[Efilnikufesin]

Have argued for Jojen paste previously on here, but I would like to bring up a different, but possibly equally unlikeable explaination. Greenseeing is a trap. Bran is going to waste away his life as a greenseer, accomplishing little to no effect upon "The Game" and wake up old and frail with a weirwood growing through his body before he realizes it, just as Bloodraven has. Why is Jojen going to die when he gets back to Greywater, well because he will be an old man himself when he gets back there (possibly becoming a being like Coldhands.)

Part of this is due to the time Bran and company spend in the crypts. Notice how in the crypts Bran loses what seems like days at a time warging into Summer while the rest of the party just waits in the dark, worrying that he hasn't eaten or drank enough because he is busy warging Summer.

Now that he is becoming a greenseer, with all these weirwoods to look through, into the past, present, (future?) how much time will pass by before he realizes he has lost 5, 10, 20, 30 and more years of his life living within other entities?

Why has a tree grown into Bloodraven? Because he spends so much time stuck in this abstract existence, that he does not eat or drink himself, the tree provides his nourishment needed to "be."

Don't trust the Elder races!

[Ciazio]

<snip>

Bravo ser, very well done. I agree!!!

Can I add a bit of black humor...? Run Bran, run away!!!

[Empire]

Efilnikufesin

I agree that Bran is losing perception of time. I thought it was very cleverly written - the reader has difficulty inferring time other than through moon phases.

The hint of cannibalism is more terrifying in my opinion.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I think jojen knows of his own death. Hence why he always says today is not the day I die. And then your are not the one who should be afraid, speaking to bran. But how he will die I don't know. Maybe he would be given to the old gods. But I don't like that. He wants to go back home so bad. Maybe he will try and fail.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

And the paste was weirdwood paste made from the paste of weirwood seeds.

[Francis Buck]

Again, Jojen is seen wandering caves in a scene after Bran eats the paste. Is it hard to believe weirwood trees have creepy blood sap?

That's not true. When Bran returns from ingesting the paste, neither Meera nor Jojen are anywhere to be seen. It doesn't really support the theory one or another, but there's definitely no confirmation of him being alive post-paste.

[Efilnikufesin]

That's not true. When Bran returns from ingesting the paste, neither Meera nor Jojen are anywhere to be seen. It doesn't really support the theory one or another, but there's definitely no confirmation of him being alive post-paste.

This gets me back to my Bran losing time theory. Think about all of Bran's chapters once he reaches Bloodraven. Approximately three months go by, and how much has really happened? His chapters end halfway through the book. After his visions through the weirwood Meera and Jojen are gone.

Essentially, Meera and Jojen may have attempted to try to make their way home, because they have not seen Bran for possibly weeks, months, maybe a year, who knows?