Jojen Reed's fate? (ADWD Spoilers)

[kissdbyfire]

I think the most important clue indicating that Jojen was not in the paste is in the text below.

ASoS, Bran:

The Rat Cook had cooked the son of the Andal king in a big pie with onions, carrots, mushrooms, lots of pepper and salt, a rasher of bacon, and a dark red Dornish wine. Then he served him to his father, who praised the taste and had a second slice. Afterward the gods transformed the cook into a monstrous white rat who could only eat his own young. He had roamed the Nightfort ever since, devouring his children, but still his hunger was not sated. “It was not for murder that the gods cursed him,” Old Nan said, “nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive.”

And this is something we've been told over and over and over again: violation of guest right is a worse crime than serving someone their own son in a pie.. 

And I don't really buy the 'Jojen let them kill him' theory. I mean, it could be true, and I know I can be wrong. But it's not what I think happened.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Even if it's true that Jojen voluntarily sacrificing himself would not be a violation of guest right, it still doesn't make sense what Bran would gain from Jojens sacrifice. Bran is more powerful than Jojen is, Jojen is a mere greendreamer while Bran is a full on greenseer. It would be like if Steve Vai took guitar lessons from...me. That part alone just doesn't make sense.

[Gwinness]

The person tasting the blood is the captive, one of the Brandon Starks, not Bran directly. The POV's are all written in 3rd person, and by this book, Bran is never referred to as Brandon by the narrator. He might think of himself as Brandon of House Stark, or be called Brandon by another character, but when the narrator refers to him, it is always "Bran." Look at the quote::

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And though the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth... but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood."

His life flowing out of him. The object pronoun of him is Brandon Stark, the captive.

Which Brandon Stark? My only suggestions (very much theoretical) are that he could be:

• Brandon the Bad (no idea of his tale)
  
• Brandon the Shipwright, who is said to have disappeared into the Sunset Sea, or
  
• His son Brandon the Burner who burned his father's ships after the disappearance. This could be seen as a typical dramatic response to losing his father and King, or a cover-up of something.
  

The only reason I think it could be one of these 3 is that is that Bran seems to recognize the captive, and in AGoT and ACoK he names the carvings in the crypts below Winterfell. Only 4 Brandons are mentioned. Again, totally a theory that I am not at all sold on. :dunno:

Personally I believe that the red in veins of the weirwood trees is actually blood from years of blood sacrifices to the trees. Just think of how Ned always cleans his bloody sword by the heart tree.

It would be pretty lame for Jojen to disappear without a final word. His fear might also be a vision of so much death to come. Not just his own.

[ledlevee]

If my theory is correct, it doesn't matter if Jojen isn't more powerful than Bran. I think it's the blood sacrifice and the blood itself that gives the trees, the old gods, and the greenseers (who I think actually are the old gods) their power. The blood could be from anyone. It doesn't matter. The sacrificed people don't need any special powers whatsoever.

[Francis Buck]

I don't see why Bran being more powerful than Jojen somehow nullifies the effect. The point is the sacrifice, which we already know quite well is the key to magic in GRRM's world (and Old God magic is apparently no exception, considering the final vision Bran has). The fact that Jojen is a greenseer only makes it more powerful.

Regardless, none of the so-called "hard evidence" for the theory being false is actually hard evidence at all. Everything's speculatory at this point either way, but I've yet to see someone postulate something that genuinely makes the idea impossible, or even all that unlikely.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I don't see why Bran being more powerful than Jojen somehow nullifies the effect.

Indeed. In fact, additionally to the question whether the power of the sacrifice even matters, you would always sacrifice the middling guy to give the exceptional guy a little extra boost, not sacrifice the exceptional guy to give a medium boost to the middling guy.

His life flowing out of him. The object pronoun of him is Brandon Stark, the captive.

Read again, the "his" and "him" refer to "the man" in the line before and in no way to the "Brandon Stark" the line after. In no way is it implied that Bran recognized the captive as one of his namesakes (or that it was one of his namesakes).

[Gwinness]

Read again, the "his" and "him" refer to "the man" in the line before and in no way to the "Brandon Stark" the line after. In no way is it implied that Bran recognized the captive as one of his namesakes (or that it was one of his namesakes).

Oooo, I like this. If that is the case, Brandon Stark could be the bearded man tasting the blood from the captive/sacrifice. Brandon Stark is definitely not Bran though. I still think he somehow recognizes the captive since he cries out in protest.

If not though, this agrees with your idea of sacrificing the middling guy.

I'm with RenlyIsNotRight on the Jojen sacrifice front. Maybe Guest Right isn't the best argument, but the quote "My task was to get you here, My part in this is done," holds pretty solidly. I also disagree that people are against the Jojen Paste theory because they like him. I think we can all agree that Jojen is going to die.

So many times the veins of the weirwoods are likened to blood, and now we've witnessed an actual sacrifice.

[summer_stark]

I think Jojenpaste is bs. Bran never says the paste tastes like blood. He says it looks like blood. He likens the taste to acorns, not blood. Specifically, he says it tastes bitter, but not as bitter as acorn paste. As he eats, the taste changes, signifying his wedding to the trees.

Plus, he has eaten as Summer enough to know the taste of blood. The fact that the sap is distinguishable from the rest of the paste means that he would be able to taste it if it were blood, since it's clearly not mixed in. He's just describing the sap the way everyone else describes it--that it looks like blood.

[Quiet Isle]

"If Jojen is only paste now, will Bran be able to escape and return to the wall without Coldhands? Brynden talks about using the darkness, and Melisandre sees a boy with a wolf in her fires."

Rickon is going to Skagos - not far from the wall. If he and Shaggydog meet up with Melisandre, and she has indeed seen a vision of this, then this confirms my suspicions that Rickon is going to be a SORCEROR. and Melisandre is going to teach him all she can.

[summer_stark]

"If Jojen is only paste now, will Bran be able to escape and return to the wall without Coldhands? Brynden talks about using the darkness, and Melisandre sees a boy with a wolf in her fires."

Rickon is going to Skagos - not far from the wall. If he and Shaggydog meet up with Melisandre, and she has indeed seen a vision of this, then this confirms my suspicions that Rickon is going to be a SORCEROR. and Melisandre is going to teach him all she can.

Mel sees Bran and BR in the flames, not Rickon. She sees "a wooden face, corpse white...a thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames... Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled."

Plus, why would Davos go to the wall instead of to White Harbor/find Stannis at Winterfell? And even if he didn't know that Stannis was gone and went to the wall, he hates Mell--there's no way he's letting her get her hands on him. I mean, she has more men, but he'll have Osha and possibly some crazy Skagosi army (that's what boarders think anyway--I'm not sold on it), but I think Osha will be around since GRRM has said he liked the way the actress plays her in the show so much that he plans to write more for her to do--and Osha will protect him.

[LucifeLMartelL]

How dare this forum call a Prince of Dorne a Commoner... Hmmf...!!!

Anyways, is it just me or people in this forum read waaayyyyy too much in between the lines. :)

Common now..!!! "Jojen paste !!!" Really ?!

[Lord Pendragon]

Anyways, is it just me or people in this forum read waaayyyyy too much in between the lines. :)

Discussion and theorizing are why many come here. Granted, some of the theories (like this one, for my money) are outright insane, but that's entertaining as well, and harmless. Some of the threads/theories are serious, others are just passing the time, having fun while we wait the years and years between books. :lol:

Common now..!!! "Jojen paste !!!" Really ?!

Have to admit it wasn't a theory I was expecting when I first clicked on this thread either.

[Where Boars Glow]

I have to think that Jojen still has something important left to do in the story before his inevitable demise. I like the idea of him willingly sacrificing himself(which sounds like something the character would do) I just don't think it has happened yet. Jojen is still the link to the truth about what happened with the Starks at the tournament at Harrenhall. He through Howland Reed is the link to Jon Snows past and that information needs to get to Bran so that it can be revealed to Jon.

But Jon is dead.....I think Bran might be the answer to this out as well. Bran is a green seer and Green seers as we have seen are beings "out of time." Past, future ,present are all sort of one thing to them. Maybe the last of what we are seeing from Jon is from Brans point of view and he still has a chance to do something about it before it happens in the present.

I know this one is a tad outside the box....but so is George RR Martin.

[LucifeLMartelL]

Discussion and theorizing are why many come here. Granted, some of the theories (like this one, for my money) are outright insane, but that's entertaining as well, and harmless. Some of the threads/theories are serious, others are just passing the time, having fun while we wait the years and years between books. :lol:

Have to admit it wasn't a theory I was expecting when I first clicked on this thread either.

Lolzzz, guess i should't be complaining for i will be needing them big time bet the wait for TWOW is going to drive me insane.

But i think Jojen can't be dead i feel he still has a part to play.

BTW nice Sakuya Kira aka Lucifer Avatar there. ;)

[Lord Pendragon]

Lolzzz, guess i should't be complaining for i will be needing them big time bet the wait for TWOW is going to drive me insane.

You and me both.

But i think Jojen can't be dead i feel he still has a part to play.

I agree. Definitely I find it unlikely it will happen off-camera. It may be that the only part he has left to play is his death, but even that would have on-camera value given Bran and Meera's attachment to him. And it may extend beyond that. He is absolutely sure his green dreams are never wrong, but he's misinterpreted them more often than he's actually gotten them right, and since we aren't privy to what his death dream actually entailed, I give it even odds Jojen completely flubbed the interpretation.

BTW nice Sakuya Kira aka Lucifer Avatar there. ;)

Thanks! :D

[chrisdaw]

Oooo, I like this. If that is the case, Brandon Stark could be the bearded man tasting the blood from the captive/sacrifice. Brandon Stark is definitely not Bran though. I still think he somehow recognizes the captive since he cries out in protest.

If not though, this agrees with your idea of sacrificing the middling guy.

I'm with RenlyIsNotRight on the Jojen sacrifice front. Maybe Guest Right isn't the best argument, but the quote "My task was to get you here, My part in this is done," holds pretty solidly. I also disagree that people are against the Jojen Paste theory because they like him. I think we can all agree that Jojen is going to die.

So many times the veins of the weirwoods are likened to blood, and now we've witnessed an actual sacrifice.

It's Bran, as Cold Hands referred to him, it symbolises his growth towards becoming the Brandon Stark.

[Knight ofthe Laughing Tree]

If he agreed to the sacrifice, then the guest right would be nullified I think. I'm of the opinion that Jojen knew he would be sacrificed all along, but he was willing to do it for the greater good, at least in his mind. Also, if Bran tasted the blood of the man sacrificed through the wierwood, wouldn't that mean the wierwood somehow sucked up the man's blood. I think this is what the sap actually is, the blood of those sacrificed to the trees. I think all of this ties together somehow and is behind the magical powers of the greenseers and the old gods. It all makes too much sense to me.

Yea I was thinking along those lines about the guest right-- which is a great point in and of itself-- but if Jojen died willingly, no guest right would have been violated. Not sure about the weirdwood sap. I'm thinking there is a passage somewhere that a character actually touches the sap and it's sap--- is it Jon Snow when he makes his NW vow? I'll have to look for that. That being said, I have thought that Bran tasting the blood is in a way a reconnection to the blood of Jojen paste once he is hooked to the weirnet so-to-speak and the image before him stimulated that response to being part of the weirwood and how warging in to it was possible-- rather vague explanation but I think you've sort of said what I mean and in a better way-- but not sure I think weirwoods suck up blood.... isn't there also a reference somewhere that claims the weirwoods/gods didn't want sacrifices and people just sacrificed in front of them anyway ?

[ab aeterno]

Just a quick question with regards to the guest right guys. Without reading through the entire thread again, or rereading the chapters, as I don't have time right now, Bran gets fed by the CoTF while in the cave, but are Jojen and Meera given food? I'm not arguing either way, I just can't remember, but if they weren't it would negate the guest right anyway. I realize that they must have eaten, at least in the early part, but were they fed or did they find food themselves?

[Ciazio]

Just a quick question with regards to the guest right guys. Without reading through the entire thread again, or rereading the chapters, as I don't have time right now, Bran gets fed by the CoTF while in the cave, but are Jojen and Meera given food? I'm not arguing either way, I just can't remember, but if they weren't it would negate the guest right anyway. I realize that they must have eaten, at least in the early part, but were they fed or did they find food themselves?

I think that they were given food by the COTF. Anyway, they've been stuck in that cave for about 3 months (correct me if I'm wrong) so they had to eat.

[ab aeterno]

I think that they were given food by the COTF. Anyway, they've been stuck in that cave for about 3 months (correct me if I'm wrong) so they had to eat.

That sounds about right, I just wondered if it was explicitly mentioned that they were given food or that they went and found food themselves, because the gift of food is always prominently mentioned with the guest right- Manderly, the Red Wedding etc. Having said that, we're also told that you show that you are refusing the guest right by baring your sword across your lap so it is probably nothing. I was just wondering anyway.

Edited for clarity.