Jojen Reed's fate? (ADWD Spoilers)

[Dementia]

If that really was JojenPaste, there were veins in it... :crying:

Do you know how difficult it is to turn raw muscle into paste? I mean even raw beef isn't PASTE and the CotF don't have food processors. I don't buy the JojenPaste thing. Now...they could be bleeding him...

[Wouter]

well the children are obviously druidic nature worshippers. to them jojen is becoming a part of bran, who will "become" a tree. it will soak up water and grow stronger roots, becoming part of the ecosystem. seeds will fall and create new trees . The Circle of Life if you will. It's not as bad an ending for Jojen as many people are making it out to be....well depending on what happens with Bran's warging by the song's conclusion. I'll take that over most characters' untimely fates in the books.

That's my line of reasoning as well. That the CotF just look very differently on life and death with this Gaia-like outlook, without really having ill intentions to humanity at large.

That still wouldn't make it a good thing for Jojen or Bran though. Both are humans and thus want to live (and not be a cannibal).

[Scaeva]

Interesting take, but my instinct about the taste of the paste was that the weirwoods themselves feed on blood, hence the red sap and leaves.

Hmmm. You may be right. The weirwood in White Harbor, which had a particularly gruesome past, was absolutely massive. I wonder if that size was achieved through all the blood it drank.

Now I wish I paid more attention to those descriptions of the weirwoods throughout the world. Were there others that had a bloody past, that seemed to be massive as well?

[ledlevee]

What if Jojen willingly sacrificed himself to further Bran's powers, knowing it would go along with a greater good? Or I should say, what if he willingly went along with the Children/Bloodraven's plan to sacrifice him. He may have seen the future, that Bran will do something to help save the world, so he willingly allows himself to die (he doesn't seem to be in the best sorts at this point anyway). Perhaps if this was the case, Bran and Meera would be more likely to go along with it, especially if Jojen told Meera about it ahead of time and she already knows. She could help Bloodraven and the children appease Bran regarding the situation. I'm not sure I necessarily believe this, but it's a possibility, especially given the evidence in the text.

[chrisdaw]

If Jojen paste is real, where does it stop? There are COTF on thier own weirwood thrones who appear near to death. If lightweight Jojen can awaken such abilities, what could this gang do? Not to mention Brynden himself, obviously on his last legs, I wonder what the paste of such a powerful greenseer with just the hint of dragon blood could achieve in Bran. Certainly seems as though he's going to die anyway, would seem a bit of a waste not to make the most of things.

[Symon Silvertongue]

If Jojen is only paste now, will Bran be able to escape and return to the wall without Coldhands? Brynden talks about using the darkness, and Melisandre sees a boy with a wolf in her fires.

[Dolorous Ed Tollet]

Jojen is still alive... This Jojen paste theory is totally unbacked by Anything except for the fact the paste looked like blood and he wasn't in the chapter...

[lostinwesteros]

I'm pretty new to all this - have only read the series once, and did that in less than three months, so I was obviously racing through without picking up on lots that's been covered in the threads of this forum, but I just have a hard time believing that a theme this dark would be one Bran is 'destined' for. Throughout their 'journey' beyond the wall - even before that - I've just had a clear sense that Jojen and Meera were accompanying Bran on a mission that would ultimately be 'good' and ultimately effect some positive change to counter the coming of Winter, counter the Others/wigts that Coldhands was also fighting. Help!

[The Knight of ...]

Jojen is still alive... This Jojen paste theory is totally unbacked by Anything except for the fact the paste looked like blood and he wasn't in the chapter...

Yeah, this theory actually makes me a little angry sometimes for this reason. It's completely baseless, but some people treat it as gospel.

[Ladywhiskers]

well, as a former chef, this isn't quite right. You use the bones, some organs, etc. to make the base, strain it, and then stew the meat.

However, this theory isn't about Jojen stew, it's about a weirwood paste that specifically contains his blood, and blood is one thing that is never used for stew.

Those "veins" aren't veins, they're like the veins in marbled ice cream or cake. The white paste is of course ground weirwood seeds, and the red stuff veined through them is weirwood sap, possibly mixed with blood--that of Jojen or someone else. The weirwood seeds could be ground with bones, I suppose, but the upshot here is that Bran is probably not eating flesh of any kind.

Now, Jojen needn't die, simply to put his blood into the sap, but there could be a magical reason why the blood has to be his last heart's blood, that his life had to go into it. Just speculating here--I'm not really convinced one way or the other.

[Howling Mad]

The weirwood in Winterfell's God's wood is called "The heart tree" (AGOT pg 23.) Seems to me that GRRM allays intended to relate the old Gods/COTF/Weirwoods with blood.

Given Jojen's greendreams it's possible that Howland knew the mission he was sending the kids on even if they didn't.

[chrisdaw]

Seems people are missing the subtext between Meera and Jojen with all this peculiar interpretation of the "he wants to go home" line.

Jojen knows and accepts the green dream that showed him his death. He's told Meera, before they reached Winterfell. Meera stubbornly rejects the inevitability of Jojen's dream and that the green dreams must come true. Jojen seeks out Bran to bring him to BR as that's what the dreams/3EC tell him to do, despite knowing it ends in his death, as he has faith in the dreams and the old gods, he doesn't want to die but accepts it's inevitable and for the greater good, also it's his role to serve the Starks and give his life for them. Meera doesn't comprehend things on the scale Jojen does, she doesn't see the greater good in any of it. Meera goes with Jojen with the hope of defeating the inevitability of the green dream, she follows to protect Jojen and to seek out the 3EC, she's not sure what exactly the 3EC is but believes it to be of the old gods and has hope that the 3EC will can change Jojen's fate, either as an act of benevolence or in gratitude for doing its bidding and bringing Bran.

That's what the final conversation between Bran and Meera is about, they've found the 3EC but nothing has changed, her hopes have all fallen apart and all that's left is her despair and resentment as inevitability closes in.

Also of note is that it's pointed out that Jojen's health returned whilst his mood grew more sullen. It's to make clear he is a total sacrifice, it's not asthough his health was flagging and he'd have died anyway.

[Lord of Long Lake]

Much like the, "Is Arya really blind?" question that is revealed in adwd,

this theory will most likely be revealed as either true or false very early on in twow.

If true, it just reaffirms my gut reaction to Bloodraven, which is that he isn't a very good "person."

I hate the atmosphere present in the cave. Bran needs to get the seven hells out of there.

[Jojen]

I won't be convinced of his death until I see a body, but I know that's not necessarily GRRM's way. He is very clever, and I believe he wants us to think that Jojen was sacrificed. His mood from the earlier in the chapter and his later absence from it, Bran's fear, all the references about how "the moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife." The description of the moon could just be a very curious way of conveying the passage of time (several months) or the fact that the action in the latter half of the chapter occurs on the same day. Notice that GRRM didn't call that chapter "The Sacrifice" (he reserves that for one about Asha) -- that would have been too obvious anyway, if Jojen was indeed killed, or simply false if he wasn't. GRRM's just giving himself some wiggle room and planting the seed of doubt in our heads.

Jojen tells Meera that Bran isn't the one who needs be afraid. As Chrisdaw points out above, Jojen knows when he dies, and presumedly how. If you knew the moment of your death, would you be afraid when the time came, if you had years to come to terms and be at peace with that knowledge, as Jojen has had? No, I think if he is afraid, it's for some other reason.

And as lostcause asks above, why would they kill him? Aren't there any Children with greensight anymore? Why would BR allow it, when he was the one who woke up Jojen's greensight in the first place? That's what we would call an 'Indian giver' -- giving a gift and then taking it away. Granted, we don't know exactly what's going through BR's wooden head, but I find it difficult to believe he would be so cruel as to grant him the ability to foresee his death that would be in fact be caused by BR himself.

Jojen tells Bran "My task was to get you here. My part in this is done." He says "My part in this is done." That suggests he has more to do, just not perhaps with Bran. "He wants to go home," Meera tells Bran. "He will not even try and fight his fate." This suggests that maybe he's going to die there and not underground with the Children. If he knows his fate has something to do with Greywater Watch, then he knows that he's not going to die anywhere else.

Now, it's entirely possible that he did give up some of his blood for Bran, if what Bran sees in the paste really is blood and not something that just looks like blood, as others have pointed out. But why, if BR tells him that Bran's blood makes him a greenseer, which is more powerful than someone who only has greendreams, would he need Jojen's blood anyway? BR tells him the paste "will wed you to the trees," that "the trees will teach you. The trees remember." Jojen doesn't have any particular connection to trees that I'm aware of. It makes more sense that there actually is weirwood sap in the paste as Bran supposes. He's eaten something that came from the trees, and that by ingesting it, can access their memories. That's all there is to it.

[Net-Viper X]

I thought the books made a pretty big point about making sure the readers knew that Weirwood sap was red and looked just like blood. They mention it leaking out of the eyes of just about every one of those trees they come across if it has a face carved in it. Even the TV show looks like the trees eyes are bleeding. So why then would anyone assume that red stuff is anything but Weirwood sap? I personally never once got the impression that it was anything other than sap, the Children are trying to gain Brans loyalty and killing his friend and travelling companion would certainly be counter productive to that goal. They are also well aware than Bran has incredible abilities of farsight, so they wouldn't expect to be able to kill his buddy without him finding out about it at some point and turning against them because of it. I guess its possible that as a race they just aren't that bright and don't have the ability to think things through to that degree, but it doesn't seem likely since they appear to be comparable to humans in their intellectual abilities.

[Lord of Cheese]

I read the passage in the book again. I dont think its Jojen paste that Bran eats.

I dont think there is enough time to kill and process Jojen (or catch him and bleed him). It mentions that Jojen had taken to climbing up to and staring out the caves mouth to look over the forest. Them Meera tells Bran that Jojen wants to go home and wont even try to fight his fate. Then she runs off. Then Brynden and Leaf tell Bran its time (and Leaf has the paste already) and he eats paste. And he doesnt identify the taste of blood, just bitter initially and then it changes to sweet.

I think that Meera at that point has seen Jojen go for the cave mouth and that prompts her to talk to Bran about Jojen and his sullenness. So its not like Jojen was missing for a long time. It may have been only minutes ag that Jojen went for the cave mouth.

Why they are not at their camp once Bran is done with his initial dream is anyones guess but maybe they went exploring somewhere.

Aside:

About Jojen stating that the power is in the blood. The power should be in Bran's blood and he shouldnt need Jojens blood. The weirwood sap was just to awaken Brans tree reading abilities that he already has.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I dont think there is enough time to kill and process Jojen (or catch him and bleed him). It mentions that Jojen had taken to climbing up to and staring out the caves mouth to look over the forest. Them Meera tells Bran that Jojen wants to go home and wont even try to fight his fate. Then she runs off. Then Brynden and Leaf tell Bran its time (and Leaf has the paste already) and he eats paste.

We don't know how much time passes between the scene with Meera at the fire and the conversation with Brynden and Leaf though. The paragraph in between talks at length about how "the days marched past, one after the other, each shorter than the ones before. The nights grew longer [...]". I'd say that indicates enough time to grind someone into paste, even if Jojen had actually been seen during the previous Bran/Meera conversation (which also is only supposition).

[CrypticWeirwood]

That still wouldn't make it a good thing for Jojen or Bran though. Both are humans and thus want to live (and not be a cannibal).

Bit late for that, then: Bran’s already eaten human flesh — as Summer.

[lostinwesteros]

Much like the, "Is Arya really blind?" question that is revealed in adwd,

this theory will most likely be revealed as either true or false very early on in twow.

If true, it just reaffirms my gut reaction to Bloodraven, which is that he isn't a very good "person."

I hate the atmosphere present in the cave. Bran needs to get the seven hells out of there.

I think it was in another thread, but I voiced much the same idea about Bloodraven, and thought that he might actually be evil. But some of the posters who've been here much longer said that they thought BR was a pretty OK guy. So I went back and looked up the references to him in the List of Characters, etc., and that completely changed my mind about him.

I do, however, feel like the cave is pretty creepy, and don't want Bran to end up just being a tree there. Also don't think Bran is eating flesh or causing Jojen to die.

[Cheese Pudding]

Jojen is going to die when he returns to Greywater Watch. He saw it in a dream. And that's important for Bran's story. Will he go with Meera and Jojen to GW?

If there was blood in the Woodpaste, then we must think from where, but I don't believe it was from Jojen ou Meera (as I said, he will die in GW). I cant imagine the reason why Bran didn't find them, maybe it's just Martin's troll to make us believe they are gone.