Jojen Reed's fate? (ADWD Spoilers)

[Mr. Wolf]

Also the idea of using someone else's blood for power is not a new idea within fantasy.

On that point we agree.

If they needed Jojen's blood (much like Edric Storms blood and leeches) I would 100% agree with this theory. If that were the case there would a) be precedence and b ) account for the blood taste in the paste and c) not require killing a friend.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

I must be confused on the timeline. I thought Bran was following the Reed's around in Hodor's body after the paste was made.

[Targed&Feathered]

SuperFrey power!! Mr. Wolf, you just became my favorite poster ever!

I have followed this argument thru 2 threads now & it seems it has distilled down to: PROVE Jojen isn't WeirPaste! No, YOU prove he IS! While neither side has definitive textural proof to supply, only subjective interpretations which appear to go EITHER WAY (& boil down to the way a conjunction can be read in some cases), I lean toward the side of 'Nope, No JojenPaste Here'. If, as one wise poster said, GRRM has said 'The REEDS have a part to play yet' (& I may be misquoting somewhat but I know the gist was the plural REEDS), I find it ridiculous to take the meaning of that as Meera & some Reed we haven't actually met yet except indirectly. I just don't see why GRRM would obfuscate or redirect us on this matter. Almost no one believes Jon is really dead or that his storyline has ended, & this is in large part based on GRRM'S answer to a questioner along the lines of 'So you think he's (Jon's) dead, do you?' , which isn't even quite as direct as the quote about the Reeds. I agree the plot of this series is convoluted, & that in some things, we can never be too sure, but sometimes the simplest answer is the best, & I believe GRRM means Jojen & Meera Reed when he says REEDS, since they are the Reeds we know & have intimately followed for 3 books now. Mileage varys hugely on this issue, tho, so this is only MY belief.

[xspicer89x]

Ok so this is my first post. Truly there is so much evidence in favour of Jojen paste it is overwhelming. On top of all the obvious stuff that has been mentioned like the ominous feel of the chapter (The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife repeated 4 times throughout the chapter while the other moon phases are not), the sap looking like blood and having a similar bitter taste (at first), jojen not being there after the paste, and all the other stuff I want to put this theory out ther (it's prolly floating around somewhere but just to put it in perspective with the Jojen paste theory).

My hypothesis is that the crannogmen are descendants from a line of CoTF who remained on this side of the Wall. Jojen and Meera are always talking about how their people remember things about the old gods and how to live off the land, and the whole thing about other ppl other than crannogmen not being able to find greywater watch unless the crannogmen want it to be found. This would help explain why Jojen seems to know everything that he knows about the CoTF (seeing as how hes not a full blown greenseer and only a “once-in-a-while greendreamer”, it’s unlikely he got all that knowledge from his dreams, and just as unlikely that his people know so much about the CoTF unless they themselves have a direct connection to them and their histories and customs).

Ok so, let's consider this quote:

"...once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of a forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance"

This paragraph contains some support for the Jojen paste if we consider Jojen and the crannogmen as descents of a line of CoTF. . . Jojen’s eyes are also green as the moss on a tree in the heart of a forest, he is not robust at all, and all evidence suggests that his years on the earth will be quick and few. Even thought he is not a greenseer, he was blessed with the gift of greendreams, ("greendreams" have only been described as being seen amongst skinchangers and children of the forest, unless we consider the targ dream prophecies as a form of greendreaming as well).

Regardless, chances are his life essence or soul was somehow absorbed into a weirdwood most likely through a blood sacrifice. Soon after that it provided seeds, and it is from those seeds that Bran’s paste is made of. The blood sacrifice of someone blessed with a gift of greendreams from the gods then further helps explain how bran's abilities receive a sudden jump start in awakening after eating the paste; by wedding him to the trees--i.e. to nature, in a closer sense then men are used to, but in a way that may not be as foreign to the crannogmen.

Jojen had a greendream of his death, and he is the one who must interpret his greendreams. He does not know 100% the exact way that he will die, or if he does know then it is quite possible that he does not know the reasons for his death. It is likely that he interpreted his greendream as a literal death, when in fact he is being merged with the godhood for the purpose of wedding Bran to the trees for the ultimate endgame of BR and the CoTF. Or, if he did know he was going to be sacrificed in this manner, it makes even more sense why he wouldn't eat the acorn paste in this quote from Bran I of DwD

Meera made a paste . . . Jojen did not even make the attempt [to eat]. Younger and frailer than his sister, he was growing weaker by the day. "Jojen, you have to eat," Meera told him. "Later. I just want to rest." Jojen smiled a wan smile. "This is not the day I die, sister. I promise you."

Thoughts????

[Jiriki]

Spicer89's arguments above are pretty convincing. I think Jojen is now Jojen Paste.

[Beathag]

After all the times we have heard Jojen say "this is not the day I die," seems a bit odd he doesn't announce the day he does.

I sincerely hope he is not paste.

[Empire]

He wouldn't say "today isn't the day I die" on the day he dies.

I find the fact he doesn't say that as damning evidence that this was, in fact e chapter in which he died.

[Lord Ravenstark]

He wouldn't say "today isn't the day I die" on the day he dies.

I find the fact he doesn't say that as damning evidence that this was, in fact e chapter in which he died.

I don't know, precisely, when Jojen said.... but IIRC, he said before entering the cave.

Several weeks, if not months, before the weirwood paste.

However, I do not believe in Jojen Paste.

[Talking Hodor]

I think the weirwood paste is just weirwood paste. Those trees are magical enough without needing blood sacrifice. Bran and co.'s ability to warg has never needed blood sacrifices; there's no reason to think that spying through trees does either. Trees eat water and photons.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Let's say his blood is required in the paste, why does he have to die to supply said blood?

[bemused]

Heavens! " The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife " .. The other moon phases are mentioned , just less often.. Of course that description is mentioned more frequently . There are 2 crescent moons in every moon cycle . Time is passing ... about two months , apparently.

ETA: The bitterness of the taste is likened to Acorn paste , not blood and the effect is similar to when Dany drank Shade of the Evening ( also prepared from part of a tree ...leaves , in that case.. ). Both concoctions facilitate seeing visions.

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. ..Bran ,ADWD

The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother’s milk and Drogo’s seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them ...Dany ,ACoK

[Jiriki]

Heavens! " The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife " .. The other moon phases are mentioned , just less often.. Of course that description is mentioned more frequently . There are 2 crescent moons in every moon cycle . Time is passing ... about two months , apparently.

ETA: The bitterness of the taste is likened to Acorn paste , not blood and the effect is similar to when Dany drank Shade of the Evening ( also prepared from part of a tree ...leaves , in that case.. ). Both concoctions facilitate seeing visions.

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. ..Bran ,ADWD

The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother’s milk and Drogo’s seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them ...Dany ,ACoK

Good find! Since you're drawing comparisons between Bran's paste and Dany's drink, which apparently have a similar taste, what do you make of the part where Dany thinks it tastes "like red meat and hot blood"?

[Lord Ravenstark]

Good find! Since you're drawing comparisons between Bran's paste and Dany's drink, which apparently have a similar taste, what do you make of the part where Dany thinks it tastes "like red meat and hot blood"?

The same with human milk and bodily fluids.

Heavens! " The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife " .. The other moon phases are mentioned , just less often.. Of course that description is mentioned more frequently . There are 2 crescent moons in every moon cycle . Time is passing ... about two months , apparently.

ETA: The bitterness of the taste is likened to Acorn paste , not blood and the effect is similar to when Dany drank Shade of the Evening ( also prepared from part of a tree ...leaves , in that case.. ). Both concoctions facilitate seeing visions.

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. ..Bran ,ADWD

The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother’s milk and Drogo’s seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them ...Dany ,ACoK

Two, four... maybe more. It will be hard to put Bran in the Timeline.

[adsf45ds]

I see how GRR would want us to seriously consider the idea of Jojenpaste, but the issue is, how do we know it is really Jojen's blood? This could well be a misdirection and use someone else's blood right? I recall they ate a "blood stew" so they do have a source for the raw material...

[Toft]

Doing things with the blood of Jojen - a greenseer - such as putting it into the paste or using it in other ways, does not have to kill him. But it might hurt him, it might weaken him, and he might fear it terribly, despite knowing it to be his duty.

I do think his powers are somehow being added to the mix. And I do think that chapter is intentionally haunting, worded in ways that confirm this. Blood as sweet as honey is mildly vampiric, incidentally. And even "pure" weirwood sap appears to have, as its source, blood.

It's one of the most beautiful chapters of the whole series.

[Toft]

I was amused by this from the latest preview chapter:

“Mercy,” the Stranger called, “bring the

bloody paste, my horn is coming loose.”

(My emphasis.)

[Lost Melnibonean]

I was amused by this from the latest preview chapter:

Mercy, the Stranger called, bring the

bloody paste, my horn is coming loose.

(My emphasis.)

Freakin awesome catch!

[TheOwlWBU]

I'm sorry for replying to this thread so long after the last post in it, but I just found it by accident and had to sign up and post. Spoilers for the next book.

In the Stannis preview chapter from the next book, Asha Greyjoy tries to persuade Stannis to execute Theon at a heart tree:

"Theon is my mother's last surviving son. When his brothers died, it shattered her. His death will crush what remains of her... but I have not come to beg you for his life."
"Wise. I am sorry for your mother, but I do not spare the lives of turncloaks. This one, especially. He slew two sons of Eddard Stark. Every northman in my service would abandon me if I showed him any clemency. Your brother must die."
"Then do the deed yourself, Your Grace." The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains. "Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear. That is how Eddard Stark would have done it. Theon slew Lord Eddard's sons. Give him to Lord Eddard's gods. The old gods of the north. Give him to the tree."
And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester's ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws. "The tree," one squawked, "the tree, the tree," whilst the second screamed only, "Theon, Theon, Theon."
Theon Greyjoy smiled. They know my name, he thought.

Why would the ravens be so excited about Theon being "giv[en] to" a heart tree? The way they respond, it almost sounds like they're filled with overwhelming rapture and joy. Could it be because Theon is the son of the King of the Iron Islands and thus has a king's blood (stated many times to be very powerful)?

I imagine that Bloodraven would be just as excited as the normal ravens if my idea is correct. Bran's been told a couple times now that "time" is not something that really matters to a heart tree, because they just have no sense of it which is what allows him to go into the past. Can that happen the other way around? The present is just tomorrow's past, after all. He's also been told (and experienced proof) that the trees are connected to each other.

Could the magic from a sacrifice at the heart tree in Winterfell make it's way beyond the wall to Bloodraven? Did the children use that magic to create the paste out of the seeds? It would explain why it would look and taste like blood, but also get sweeter as time goes on. Maybe it symbolises Theon's redemption to the Starks and the North - he ruined Robb and now he's saved Bran. Why seeds? Maybe just a simpler explanation for that - The Old Gods are nature spirits, so it stands to reason that eating is the way that they infuse people with magic. Eating is natural. That's why those First Men tasted the blood. The wierwood seed paste is usually the same as the acorn (oak seed) paste the kids were eating on the way up, just something to eat, a means to an end. I'm pretty sure that the only trees available are heart trees, which is why they're made with those seeds if you follow me. (I just made the mental connection of how the Wildling's carve a face into an oak tree once past Melisandre and worship that instead of a heart tree, which may or may not be related but is certainly intriguing to think about!)

Tl;Dr: "Jojenpaste" is actually "Theonpaste" because he has king's blood and gets sacrificed to the Old Gods in the next book, enabling a powerful act of magic which travels back in time to be eaten by Bran in the form of a paste. The paste is just a conduit for the magic and probably could even have been made from any other tree if there were any.

[Maester2chainz]

Sorry to bring up the show- some people have major problems bringing it up here- but does anyone else think this theory is now confirmed given what happened last night?

At the very least it shows Jojen is nonessential to the overall plot.

[Felipe Orletti Penedo]

Yeah, i came back here just to check that, seems like the show confirmed the theory, but avoiding the disgusting part.